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vertexrocketry
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chlorates and perchlorates in australia
hi
i live in australia and i need some perchlorate and/or chlorate
does anyone sell it or know any ways to make it that don't involve electrolysis
help would be greatly appreciated
[Edited on 2-5-2025 by Texium]
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Boffis
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If you search this board you will find numerous references to potassium chlorate from household bleach and potassium chloride. The process is simple
and all you need is standard bleach, the stronger the better but it works with 4.5% sodium hypochlorite, you just have to boil off more water.
Calcium hypochlorite, "pool shock" also work well though the method is a little more complex and requires both potassium chloride and potassium
carbonate or bicarbonate.
Check out: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=159662...
There are other references on this site too.
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vertexrocketry
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great thank you
[Edited on 2-5-2025 by Texium]
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j_sum1
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Message to vertexrocketry.
Something in your sig line is throwing off the formatting. Can you please edit it or disable it.
Thanks.
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Texium
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Thread Moved
5-2-2025 at 08:09 |
Texium
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I disabled it for them in this thread
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chempyre235
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If you've got an ozone generator, you might be able to use this method:
PDF page 183 of this paper shows the formation of iodate and periodate from iodide in aqueous solution using ozone. PDF page 21 of this other paper shows how solutions of hypochlorite and chlorate can be ozonated to perchlorate. I have another paper on another computer showing
methods of obtaining chlorate and perchlorate from chloride via ozonation, but I'll have to add it later.
[Edited on 2/5/2025 by chempyre235]
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vertexrocketry
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this post from 2005 by theoretric
https://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=3314#...
says this ''When reacted with chlorine, NaNO3 gives NaClO2:
NaNO3 + Cl2 => NaClO2 + NOCl''
is the reaction above true? if it is i will do this reaction
NaCLO2 → HCL = CLO2 + NaCl
2 ClO2 + 2 NaOH → NaClO2 + NaClO3 + H2O
i will extract the sodium chlorite and re use it to make more chlorine dioxide
so the net reaction is
2NaCLO2 + 2NaOH → NaCLO2 + NaCLO3
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bnull
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Where does the hydrogen go?
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vertexrocketry
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sorry this reaction
5NaClO2+4HCl→4ClO2+NaCl+2H2O
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vertexrocketry
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i need to know if the reaction is true
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chempyre235
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Well, I tried to attach the PDF as promised, but it is 743KB too large to attach. Any ideas?
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bnull
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@chempyre235: I had that sort of problem once. Is the name of the file too long? There's a character limit to names of files. If so, rename it as,
say, "chlorates and perchlorates from ozone.pdf" or "author_year.pdf", or whatever you think fit as long as it is short.
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j_sum1
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Board settings
have a limit of 8Mb. (This is small in today's terms. But I think it is Polverone's job to change it if it is needed.)
Your 745kb file should be just fine. Try shortening the name.
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woelen
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Making chlorates through ClO2 intermediate is very risky. Indeed, NaClO2 + HCl gives quite pure ClO2, which reacts (slowly) with hydroxide to a mix of
chlorite and chlorate. This process, however, requires you to make a ClO2 gas generator and bubble this gas through a solution of NaOH or KOH. This is
VERY dangerous. ClO2 has a tendency to violently explode if you look angry at it, if the sun shines too bright or if it just decides to make an end to
its own existence.
Making chlorite from nitrate and chlorine gas does not seem a viable route, I do not think that reaction occurs. Buying NaClO2, however, is fairly
easy, it is not hard to get and also is reasonably cheap. But keep in mind that it is a fairly dangerous chemical, when mixed with reducing compounds,
or when acidified.
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chempyre235
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No, it's 743KB over the max (8,743KB total). Sorry, my first post was worded a little clumsily. It was late when I typed it. 
[Edited on 2/6/2025 by chempyre235]
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Texium
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Just go set up a chlorate cell. It’s easier than you think, it’s like a rite of passage for you energetics types, and there’s hundreds if not
thousands of posts about them on this forum. Certainly easier and safer than mucking about with Cl2 and ClO2 generators.
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metalresearcher
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Quote: Originally posted by Texium  | | Just go set up a chlorate cell. It’s easier than you think, it’s like a rite of passage for you energetics types, and there’s hundreds if not
thousands of posts about them on this forum. Certainly easier and safer than mucking about with Cl2 and ClO2 generators. |
I agree. I have made KClO3 this way. The best is to use an MMO anode which costs arounf $40.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=mmo+anode&crid=IP6U3A16ZAT2&a...
Using carbon rod anode is cheaper, but after running the cell for hours / days, finely divided carbon particles get suspened in the bath. This can be
filtered out using a household funnel and a coffee filter.
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bnull
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Preparation of potassium chlorate and perchlorate extracted from Walton's Inorganic Preparations.
Attachment: electrolytic preparation of potassium chlorate and perchlorate.pdf (48kB)
This file has been downloaded 45 times
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vertexrocketry
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i understand the risks of using chlorine dioxide such as its explosive poteintol though i am already using the procedure to make chlorate from
chlorine dioxide the problem is sodium chlorite is very very expensive in australia +$100 per 100 g so i need to know if the procedure of making
sodium chlorite is legitimate
[Edited on 6-2-2025 by vertexrocketry]
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j_sum1
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A couple of comments.
Your enthusiasm for high risk reactions and reagents is worrying – especially when you come across as inexperienced and cannot even spell
some of the things you are describing. I encourage you to do a lot more reading before you attempt anything.
Many of the questions you are asking are the kind that have been covered well in the past on this board. It is worth doing a search and reading
an entire thread for such matters. That is what I do.
It is not worth reinventing the wheel. Electrolysis is the normal method for chlorates and perchlorates. I would guess that dozens of board
members have a chlorate cell on the go almost permanently. There are threads on suitable electrodes and the pros and cons of each one: MMO, Pt,
Carbon, PbO2. Of these, I think that making your own PbO2 electrode is by far the easiest: A bit of lead flashing, some sulfuric acid, and a couple
of days of electrolysis to build up a nice oxide coating. Back to the point: I have no idea why you would be attempting a different, more hazardous,
more costly route, especially when you do not have access to some of the chemicals you require.
Dare I ask what your ultimate goal is here? You are after carbon tet, chlorates, perchlorates and chlorine dioxide. And what else? Sounds
like a random bunch of chlorine chemistry with lots of potential to go wrong. Do you at least have a fume hood? If not, you need one.
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woelen
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I fully agree with other that electrolysis is the best way to make chlorates. I have done this myself.
Here is a write-up for making a miniature cell, good for starting experiments with this: https://woelen.homescience.net/science/chem/exps/miniature_c...
Instead of K2Cr2O7 you also can use K2S2O8. You can also take a soluble Cr(III) salt (e.g. chrome alum or chromium sulfate) and add just enough
concetrated bleach to that to make the solution yellow and add that yellow solution. You only need a pinch of chromium(VI).
[Edited on 27-2-25 by woelen]
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MrDoctor
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| Quote: Originally posted by vertexrocketry | hi
i live in australia and i need some perchlorate and/or chlorate
does anyone sell it or know any ways to make it that don't involve electrolysis
help would be greatly appreciated
[Edited on 2-5-2025 by Texium] |
hypochlorite solution for pools from bunnings is very cheap once you begin trading in the old container for a new one. boil that to disproportionate,
i think it should be a cleaner reaction than calcium hypochlorite at least for someone of your limited skillset.
As for perchlorate, i have heard a spicy rumor that oxone (not ozone) can oxidize chlorate to perchlorate, i have been meaning to test this myself
since i need only a few grams and dont wish to build a new cell. Oxone or potassium peroxymonosulfate is a triple-salt with bisulfate and sulfate, its
sold at bunnings too as chlorine free oxy-shock treatment by baracuda.
lead dioxide is catalytically active and the conversion actually goes sky-high above a certain current density, ive seen papers/charts and heard first
hand testimony, to attest to the fact that a lot of perch electrolysis would go far smoother with less damage to the anode, if they just cranked up
the current to like, 30A or something ridiculous. a small LDA could do quite a lot.
However i suggest you just pony up and do an electrolysis cell, its a no-brainer really, i did one and made several pounds of chlorate on a budget of
$40 as a mentally disabled 14 year old, in darwin.
Lastly, attempting to use chlorine dioxide for this is, moronic, to put it lightly.
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vertexrocketry
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i will try making a lead dioxide anode before trying the chlorine dioxide method thanks
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woelen
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If I were you, I first would try making chlorates, with an MMO anode, purchased online. Such an anode can be had for a few tens of dollars and making
it yourself is not worth the effort. Doing this gives you experience in making an electrolysis cell, selecting and using a suitable power supply and
working with the right voltage (using a current source is even better, a poor-man's current source, good enough for electrolysis, can be made, using a
cheap ceramic resistor).
Once you can make chlorate (a concentrated solution of the sodium salt), you can advance to perchlorate. The latter is harder to make and requires a
PbO2-anode (platinized anodes can also be used, but these are quite expensive). Again, I would not try to make a PbO2-anode yourself. It definitely
can be done, but it requires you to work with large amounts of rather toxic chemicals (e.g. lead nitrate) and requires you to manage a lot of toxic
waste. For a really experienced home chemist, who makes multiple PbO2-anodes, this is a viable route, but if you just want one or two of such anodes,
you'd better buy one from eBay.
The reason I write this post is that you first need to teach yourself how to walk, before you are ready for teaching yourself how to run 
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metalresearcher
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | If I were you, I first would try making chlorates, with an MMO anode, purchased online. Such an anode can be had for a few tens of dollars and making
it yourself is not worth the effort. Doing this gives you experience in making an electrolysis cell, selecting and using a suitable power supply and
working with the right voltage (using a current source is even better, a poor-man's current source, good enough for electrolysis, can be made, using a
cheap ceramic resistor).
Once you can make chlorate (a concentrated solution of the sodium salt), you can advance to perchlorate. The latter is harder to make and requires a
PbO2-anode (platinized anodes can also be used, but these are quite expensive). Again, I would not try to make a PbO2-anode yourself. It definitely
can be done, but it requires you to work with large amounts of rather toxic chemicals (e.g. lead nitrate) and requires you to manage a lot of toxic
waste. For a really experienced home chemist, who makes multiple PbO2-anodes, this is a viable route, but if you just want one or two of such anodes,
you'd better buy one from eBay.
The reason I write this post is that you first need to teach yourself how to walk, before you are ready for teaching yourself how to run |
Good tip !
I have both, an MMO anode which makes KClO3 perfectly, but the step to KClO4 is yet to be done. I have a nice one from https://www.ebay.com/itm/174251053308.
Start with table salt NaCl as the (per)chlorate of sodium is well soluble so no precipitation occurs. After the final step use methylene blue to
detect ClO4- (it should produce dark blue precipitate) and then add a concentrated cold solution of KCl to ice cold NaClO4 (or NaClO3) solution and
the KClO3/4 will precipitate out.
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