| Pages:
1
2 |
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
Barium peroxide from barium carbonate
Is it possible to react hydrogen peroxide with barium carbonate and precipitate barium peroxide?
Or is the lack of solubility in water a major stopper?
I could obviously produce barium nitrate first and then add the peroxide.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
See the second preparation:
https://www.prepchem.com/synthesis-of-barium-peroxide/
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
So realistically my first step is to reduce my barium carbonate to barium oxide?
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
There is a second preparation in there.
You want to get it into solution to get to the hydroxide, don't know how to do that, but from there it is easy.
Barium nitrate with sodium hydroxide?
[Edited on 3-7-2023 by Tsjerk]
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2788
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
Nitrate? I think that acetate might be a little simpler!
|
|
|
Rainwater
National Hazard
Posts: 919
Registered: 22-12-2021
Member Is Offline
Mood: indisposition to activity
|
|
https://youtu.be/LB2pO7OteDU
Here is one thats been on my todo list for a while.
They use barium nitrate, do to the much lower decomposition tempature
[Edited on 4-7-2023 by Rainwater]
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
Ok so with the second method I can react my barium carbonate with hcl to get barium chloride,
Then double displacement with sodium hydroxide to get barium hydroxide.
Then finally react this with hydrogen peroxide to precipitate barium peroxide.
Sounds fairly straight forward.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
Sodium nitrate and sodium acetate are much more soluble than sodium chloride, so if you have nitric acid or acetic acid I would use those instead of
hydrochloric acid.
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  | | Sodium nitrate and sodium acetate are much more soluble than sodium chloride, so if you have nitric acid or acetic acid I would use those instead of
hydrochloric acid. |
Ok nitrate is a good idea because I can additionally recover the nitrate as potassium nitrate by adding kcl to my final waste solution.
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
So i've had a go at this...
200g of barium carbonate
168ml of 50% nitric acid
I added the nitric acid to a 1000ml beaker and then topped it up to 800ml with distilled water.
I gradually added the barium carbonate until the solution was PH neural.
Next I filtered the solution through a good coffee filter.
I got a nice clear solution of barium nitrate.
Next I dissolved 165g of sodium hydroxide in 200ml of distilled water slowly to avoid boiling.
I split the barium nitrate 50/50 into 2x 1 litre beakers and added half of the sodium hydroxide to each..
I then cooled both of the beakers in the freezer for an hour or so.
Taken from the freezer I then filtered the precipitate of barium hydroxide through a fine coffee filter (and forgot to save my sodium nitrate for
later recovery) and ended up with a nice quantity (around 200g) of barium hydroxide.
Since then I have been taking 20g quantities of barium hydroxide and dissolving in 300m of distilled water then filtering to remove excess hydroxide
before adding 55ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide solution which precipitates a slightly off white precipitate.
I expect this is barium peroxide and I will next dry it in an oven.
|
|
|
Admagistr
Hazard to Others
Posts: 363
Registered: 4-11-2021
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: The dreaming alchemist
|
|
The problem is that when Ba(OH)2 is precipitated out of solution by alkaline hydroxide, it will probably not be well purified, the resulting product
will be polluted.Probably better, although technically difficult, would be to decompose BaCO3 at high temperature into BaO and CO2 and then oxidize
BaO by annealing in a stream of air.
|
|
|
Alkoholvergiftung
Hazard to Others
Posts: 177
Registered: 12-7-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
Bariumcarbonate has an very high decompusen Temperature and it works only with an hydrogen flame. It seems it reacts back to carbonate with the CO2
from other flamable material.
|
|
|
Admagistr
Hazard to Others
Posts: 363
Registered: 4-11-2021
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: The dreaming alchemist
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Alkoholvergiftung | | Bariumcarbonate has an very high decompusen Temperature and it works only with an hydrogen flame. It seems it reacts back to carbonate with the CO2
from other flamable material. |
In an electric furnace set at about 1500 C this should not be a problem.Yes, if you use a flame burning hydrocarbons or coke, BaO will be converted
back to BaCO3 when the temperature drops.But BaO can preferably be converted to BaO2 by simple annealing in a stream of air!
[Edited on 6-7-2023 by Admagistr]
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
I have a furnace but it tops out at 1100 C.
I've tested my yellow barium peroxide this evening and it certainly oxidises magnesium powder! No reaction with fine aluminium powder though.
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
I've been running through this process over the last few days, have produced around 130g of barium peroxide. The process seems inefficient which I
think is due to the low solubility of barium hydroxide in water.
I was going to try similar with strontium carbonate, through to strontium nitrate then hydroxide but strontium hydroxide is even less soluble in water
than barium hydroxide. What I might do though is add dry strontium hydroxide directly to 3% hydrogen peroxide and allow it to react in excess
peroxide. Would just need to leave it stirring for enough time.
[Edited on 14-7-2023 by Chemgineer]
|
|
|
Rainwater
National Hazard
Posts: 919
Registered: 22-12-2021
Member Is Offline
Mood: indisposition to activity
|
|
Is their a reason why your not using the thermal decomposition pathway?
It seams the simplest tho I have not attempted it yet
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater | Is their a reason why your not using the thermal decomposition pathway?
It seams the simplest tho I have not attempted it yet |
Because I think I would need 1400 deg C and my furnace tops out at 1100 deg C, I have a gas torch though I could try that.
|
|
|
Admagistr
Hazard to Others
Posts: 363
Registered: 4-11-2021
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: The dreaming alchemist
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Chemgineer | | Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater | Is their a reason why your not using the thermal decomposition pathway?
It seams the simplest tho I have not attempted it yet |
Because I think I would need 1400 deg C and my furnace tops out at 1100 deg C, I have a gas torch though I could try that. |
Yes, a temperature of just over 1400 C is needed.Laboratory kilns for temperatures up to 1500 C are not very common.But some kilns for firing
ceramics reach similar temperatures around 1400 C!
|
|
|
Rainwater
National Hazard
Posts: 919
Registered: 22-12-2021
Member Is Offline
Mood: indisposition to activity
|
|
Using the nitrate salt, only around 600c would be required producing barium oxide and NOx gas.
At the same temperature, blowing dry, CO2 free air over the oxide should produce the peroxide
[Edited on 16-7-2023 by Rainwater]
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
|
|
|
Admagistr
Hazard to Others
Posts: 363
Registered: 4-11-2021
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: The dreaming alchemist
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater | Using the nitrate salt, only around 600c would be required producing barium oxide and NOx gas.
At the same temperature, blowing dry, CO2 free air over the oxide should produce the peroxide
[Edited on 16-7-2023 by Rainwater] |
Yeah, nitrate is the obvious choice!It's the easiest way to get a clean product, compared to the wet way...
|
|
|
Sulaiman
International Hazard
Posts: 3695
Registered: 8-2-2015
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Member Is Offline
|
|
Since I recently bought 500g barium hydroxide
(https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=15...)
I have to ask;
Why start with the carbonate?
The hydroxide was a little more expensive per mole of barium than the carbonate,
but nitric acid is either not cheap, or subject to regulations.
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
Carbonate was just the easiest to get hold of, believe it is used allot in pyrotechnics.
|
|
|
Rainwater
National Hazard
Posts: 919
Registered: 22-12-2021
Member Is Offline
Mood: indisposition to activity
|
|
If nitric acid is unavailable, this might be more available.
Solubility will be an issue but thermodynamics says
T = 100c
ΔH -44.5178 kJ/mol
ΔS -2.9288 J mol/K
ΔG -43.4249 kJ/mol
$$BaCO_{3(s)} + Ca(NO_3)_{2(aq)} \rightarrow Ba(NO_3)_{2(aq)} + CaCO_{3(s)} $$
Should produce a clean product.
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
|
|
|
Chemgineer
Hazard to Others
Posts: 216
Registered: 25-5-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rainwater | If nitric acid is unavailable, this might be more available.
Solubility will be an issue but thermodynamics says
T = 100c
ΔH -44.5178 kJ/mol
ΔS -2.9288 J mol/K
ΔG -43.4249 kJ/mol
$$BaCO_{3(s)} + Ca(NO_3)_{2(aq)} \rightarrow Ba(NO_3)_{2(aq)} + CaCO_{3(s)} $$
Should produce a clean product. |
Thanks, i'm alright for nitric acid, my only problem is cleaning sodium sulfate/magnesium sulfate out of 500ml flasks when i've made some more!
|
|
|
Sir_Gawain
Hazard to Others
Posts: 420
Registered: 12-10-2022
Location: Due South of Due West
Member Is Offline
Mood: Like a pendulum
|
|
Sodium and magnesium sulfate are quite soluble in water. I fail to see how that is a problem.
“Alchemy is trying to turn things yellow; chemistry is trying to avoid things turning yellow.” -Tom deP.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
