averageaussie
Hazard to Self
Posts: 87
Registered: 30-4-2023
Location: Right behind you
Member Is Offline
Mood: school 
|
|
Purpose of thermite
Hello all,
I am new to this forum so excuse me if I don't know any unwritten rules, but what is the purpose of a thermite reaction? I know in a lot of them
carbon is used as a reducing agent, but couldn't you just use a stronger reducing agent like aluminium or magnesium instead of making a mini volcano?
just feel that it would be a lot safer.
|
|
|
Rainwater
National Hazard
Posts: 919
Registered: 22-12-2021
Member Is Offline
Mood: indisposition to activity
|
|
I use it as a quick and easy welding method for grounding electrodes, Structured steel, and demo work.
Different compositions for different applications. But all.work essentially the same.
"You can't do that" - challenge accepted
|
|
|
Admagistr
Hazard to Others
Posts: 363
Registered: 4-11-2021
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: The dreaming alchemist
|
|
You can also use it to produce various metals with high melting points and those that are difficult to reduce from their oxides, but the resulting
metals are not very pure.You can produce chromium, iron, molybdenum, tungsten, manganese, nickel,...
|
|
|
Herr Haber
International Hazard
Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hello,
Carbon is not used in a thermite reation. A metal such as Al, Mg, or a 50/50 % alloy called MgAl. Aluminium is most common. You can use others if you
are rich 
"Safe" here depends on a lot of factors:
- Your particle size
- Your oxide.
There are ways to tame the reaction.
You definitely will want to watch the whole series The Gayest Person on YouTube made on exotic thermites:
https://youtu.be/r0kfn4P2nfQ
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
|
|
|
Johanson
Harmless
Posts: 39
Registered: 23-3-2023
Member Is Offline
|
|
averageaussie, please be careful if you are messing around with thermite as a hobby. I just had a student get seriously burned doing thermite in
class. Thankfully he was sent immediately to an excellent burn center nearby, and is recovering. He got 2nd degree burns on several parts of his body,
and spent several days in hospital.
My advice: use a very long wicking mechanism. Do not use a magnesium wick that can accidently tip over into the batch, or melt and drip into the batch
while lighting it (that's what happened here). You can use cheap aluminum powder opposite either red iron oxide or manganese dioxide, but run the wick
completely out of the container and a few inches away before lighting the end, and then move a safe distance away. Even then, it can be unpredictable.
Just food for thought....
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6320
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
Purpose of thermite.
Welding railroad tracks
Reducing exotic elements and/or low-tech creation of alloys
Education: there is a lot of good high-school level content related to thermite reactions. Including stoichiometry, yield calculations,
managing safety. And at a higher level, determining reaction feasability, calculating entropy and enthalpy change of reaction, calculating maximum
reaction temperature, manipulating reaction kinetics etc etc. I know I learned a lot through thermite reactions myself: things that have proved very
valuable in other contexts.
Fun. I mean, what's not to love?
Of course good safe ignition methods are important. A sparkler is a good method. My standard is to use Mg ribbon and to ignite that with a little pile
of potassium permanganate and a dribble of glycerol. It takes roughly 30 seconds for the Mg to ignite and then a few more seconds for the reaction to
start. That is plenty of time to clear the area and gives good visual cues of what is going on.
|
|
|
Herr Haber
International Hazard
Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sparklers give you a good delay and work well with coarse reagents.
With 63 micron atomized Al (worst possible shape) and similar size Fe2O3 a simple visco fuse will work. This particle size will definitely erupt in a
volcano
You can use low density thermite to ignite coarser thermite.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
|
|
|
Conure
Harmless
Posts: 47
Registered: 6-2-2023
Location: Schweden
Member Is Online
|
|
Can carbon (graphite, charcoal) alone produce a self sustaining thermite reaction ?
[Edited on 1-5-2023 by Conure]
Fire is good. Fire is life.
|
|
|
averageaussie
Hazard to Self
Posts: 87
Registered: 30-4-2023
Location: Right behind you
Member Is Offline
Mood: school
|
|
I would like to thank everyone for pitching in on my post, and personally thank Herr Haber and Johanson for correcting me and showing their concern
for my safety respectively. I would like to reassure everyone that I will not be touching thermite until I have MUCH more experience in chemistry.
I would like to elaborate on my original question; why would someone use thermite to reduce a metal such as silicon or manganese using aluminium as a
reducing agent, when you could use a stronger reducing agent such as magnesium or chlorine with an aqueous solution of a metal oxide?
I am aware that Silicon dioxide is very insoluble, so a silica thermite makes sense for getting elemental silicon. however something like manganese
thermite confuses me, why is the heat from the thermite not interchangeable with a stronger reducing agent, and vice versa? why can copper be reduced
in a solution, but not other metals? Surely the use of a strong reducing agent such as magnesium or chlorine would work?
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6320
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
Chlorine is an oxidiser not a reducer.
Not all redox reactions can take place in aqueous solution.
Elevated temperatures can make many reactions feasible that cannot occur at low temperatures.
High temperature aids reaction kinetics too.
Aluminium is a pretty good reducer. Mg is stronger, but not generally necessary.
My advice is to watch a few videos and do some reading. Then give it a go yourself. They can be done quite safely. Just choose a suitable outdoor
location. Watch out for flammable items. And of course ignite safely and stand clear.
|
|
|
Herr Haber
International Hazard
Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Aluminium is used for the simplest reason on earth: cost
Mg as j_sum1 says is not generally necessary.
You seem to be confused on a few things but if you're interested in an industrial example where molten magnesium and chlorine are used you might want
to research the Kroll process.
There are a few cool videos on titanium and zirconium metallurgy on Youtube related to this process.
One below, there are plenty others with more sparks
https://youtu.be/XsdRo5jvnXo
[Edited on 3-5-2023 by Herr Haber]
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
