| Pages:
1
2 |
aromaticfanatic
Hazard to Others
Posts: 173
Registered: 10-9-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Single component rocket fuels
I've quit explosives for a while now but my love for plastic explosives has rekindled. Instead of making plastic explosives again and getting back
into explosives, I want to stick to rocket fuels that I can plasticize.
The problem is that so far the only rocket fuels I could think of were either also high explosives or were a mix of oxidzers and fuels. The former is
what I'm avoiding and the latter wouldn't work very well since mixtures typically need intimate contact and homogenous mixing to get good results.
TACP would work but stick a detonator in it and BOOM
Black powder could be intimately mixed and then granulated and ground and plasticized but I don't think it'd work very well. Perhaps I'm wrong. So far
I haven't found the candidate for my project. I have a pretty good lab so if I need to do some reactions that's not a big deal.
So the oxidizer would need to be chemically bound to the fuel, the issue is that's exactly what most high explosives are...
So the question is, are there any plasticizeable rocket fuels that can't detonate but will burn well when plasticized?
|
|
|
paulll
Hazard to Others
Posts: 112
Registered: 1-5-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: It's fine. Really.
|
|
Maybe a flash powder? I suspect it'd be straightforward to mix something up that would burn hot enough to destroy the plasticiser as it goes along
once it's initiated, but still slowly enough to be useful.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Online
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Black powder has worked for about 1100 years...
Any single component material with the energy density needed to work as rocket fuel will, as you have worked out, also do a fine job as an explosive.
|
|
|
MadHatter
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying retirement
|
|
APCP
Ammonium perchlorate composite propellant.
Enter "apcp wiki" in your search engine.
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
|
|
|
macckone
Dispenser of practical lab wisdom
Posts: 2168
Registered: 1-3-2013
Location: Over a mile high
Member Is Offline
Mood: Electrical
|
|
The only solid single propellant that would work reasonably well is nitrocellulose.
But you need to have the exactly correct nitration for a correct burn.
There is a risk of explosion if the nitration is too high and the pressure and temperature get too high.
If it is too low it is a rather inert plastic.
Everything else is going to be a composite.
APCP, black powder, etc are all composites.
The hypergolic liquids are usually binary too.
Now if you want to do a composite, black powder, APCP and rocket candy are your best bets.
There are a number of binders but butyl rubber is usually used with APCP.
With black powder it is pressed into a grain:
https://www.skylighter.com/blogs/how-to-make-fireworks/4-oun...
Rocket candy is it's own binder.
It is usually potassium perchlorate and sugar but can also be potassium nitrate and sugar.
|
|
|
Herr Haber
International Hazard
Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You can look at tools and parts available also. That might give you ideas on what you can / want to do.
Hot gasses is what you are after so flash powders are not ideal. Black powder is easy to form into grains. You might even want to make your own of
lesser quality for a slower burn.
Black powder and Arabic gum sent one of my uncles to the hospital on CATO. Another time he tried to cut corners and use an electric cofee grinder to
mill powder. He's doing fine and is still a mad scientist in another field.
It's very tempting to use NC as a binder as it generates only gas. Red Gum and shellac are good too.
I never did more than a few tries involving resorcine resin. Adding your oxidizer into that muck is interesting... I never got consistent results and
ended up using it as a HARD combustible seal and waterproofing a BKNO3 igniter.
Resins are certainly worth investigating. The industry cant be that wrong 
I mostly did colored flares and fountains. One thing you have to be careful when loading any wet composition or anything that will cure is that they
might shrink.
That is important, as the flame front may propagate along the wall of the container and... bang.
Hey, another thought ! Can Zn + S be cast ? Or will pressing hard enough sinter a grain ?
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
|
|
|
aromaticfanatic
Hazard to Others
Posts: 173
Registered: 10-9-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  | Black powder has worked for about 1100 years...
Any single component material with the energy density needed to work as rocket fuel will, as you have worked out, also do a fine job as an explosive.
|
Wait so a mixture would work? I mean the black powder would be intimately mixed, however, wouldn't the plasticizer cause the burn to be very
inefficient and slow since the binder and plasticizer mix would cause too much separation between the components? Looks like I've got some
experimenting to do...
[Edited on 5-10-2020 by aromaticfanatic]
|
|
|
aromaticfanatic
Hazard to Others
Posts: 173
Registered: 10-9-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Wait I thought that if I plasticize a mix of chemicals they wouldn't be intimately bound enough to react properly causing a crappy burn and low
efficiency?
The goal is to have a moldable plastic rocket fuel almost exactly like plastic explosives, minus the actual high explosives.
|
|
|
Deathunter88
National Hazard
Posts: 519
Registered: 20-2-2015
Location: Beijing, China
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aromaticfanatic |
Wait I thought that if I plasticize a mix of chemicals they wouldn't be intimately bound enough to react properly causing a crappy burn and low
efficiency?
The goal is to have a moldable plastic rocket fuel almost exactly like plastic explosives, minus the actual high explosives. |
Why? The whole point of solid rocket fuel is that it is tightly packed so there is no need for it to be moldable.
|
|
|
mysteriusbhoice
Hazard to Others
Posts: 477
Registered: 27-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Became chemistry catboy Vtuber Nyaa
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aromaticfanatic | I've quit explosives for a while now but my love for plastic explosives has rekindled. Instead of making plastic explosives again and getting back
into explosives, I want to stick to rocket fuels that I can plasticize.
The problem is that so far the only rocket fuels I could think of were either also high explosives or were a mix of oxidzers and fuels. The former is
what I'm avoiding and the latter wouldn't work very well since mixtures typically need intimate contact and homogenous mixing to get good results.
TACP would work but stick a detonator in it and BOOM
Black powder could be intimately mixed and then granulated and ground and plasticized but I don't think it'd work very well. Perhaps I'm wrong. So far
I haven't found the candidate for my project. I have a pretty good lab so if I need to do some reactions that's not a big deal.
So the oxidizer would need to be chemically bound to the fuel, the issue is that's exactly what most high explosives are...
So the question is, are there any plasticizeable rocket fuels that can't detonate but will burn well when plasticized? |
APCP bro
ammonium perchlorate + 10% binder
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Online
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by aromaticfanatic | | Quote: Originally posted by unionised | Black powder has worked for about 1100 years...
Any single component material with the energy density needed to work as rocket fuel will, as you have worked out, also do a fine job as an explosive.
|
Wait so a mixture would work? I mean the black powder would be intimately mixed, however, wouldn't the plasticizer cause the burn to be very
inefficient and slow since the binder and plasticizer mix would cause too much separation between the components? Looks like I've got some
experimenting to do...
[Edited on 5-10-2020 by aromaticfanatic] |
You are saying that you plan to make rockets, but you have not even done enough research to know that they used gunpowder for over a thousand years...
I suggest you do some more reading.
|
|
|
barbs09
Hazard to Others
Posts: 113
Registered: 22-1-2009
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How about castable "R-Candy" (Sugar and KNO3)?
https://www.jacobsrocketry.com/aer/caramel_candy_propellant....
|
|
|
MadHatter
International Hazard
Posts: 1339
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying retirement
|
|
Binder
In APCP the binder is consumed as
part of the fuel. Reread the wiki
about this.
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Online
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by mysteriusbhoice | | Quote: Originally posted by aromaticfanatic | I've quit explosives for a while now but my love for plastic explosives has rekindled. Instead of making plastic explosives again and getting back
into explosives, I want to stick to rocket fuels that I can plasticize.
The problem is that so far the only rocket fuels I could think of were either also high explosives or were a mix of oxidzers and fuels. The former is
what I'm avoiding and the latter wouldn't work very well since mixtures typically need intimate contact and homogenous mixing to get good results.
TACP would work but stick a detonator in it and BOOM
Black powder could be intimately mixed and then granulated and ground and plasticized but I don't think it'd work very well. Perhaps I'm wrong. So far
I haven't found the candidate for my project. I have a pretty good lab so if I need to do some reactions that's not a big deal.
So the oxidizer would need to be chemically bound to the fuel, the issue is that's exactly what most high explosives are...
So the question is, are there any plasticizeable rocket fuels that can't detonate but will burn well when plasticized? |
APCP bro
ammonium perchlorate + 10% binder |
Or not...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PEPCON_disaster
|
|
|
aromaticfanatic
Hazard to Others
Posts: 173
Registered: 10-9-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by unionised | | Quote: Originally posted by aromaticfanatic | | Quote: Originally posted by unionised | Black powder has worked for about 1100 years...
Any single component material with the energy density needed to work as rocket fuel will, as you have worked out, also do a fine job as an explosive.
|
Wait so a mixture would work? I mean the black powder would be intimately mixed, however, wouldn't the plasticizer cause the burn to be very
inefficient and slow since the binder and plasticizer mix would cause too much separation between the components? Looks like I've got some
experimenting to do...
[Edited on 5-10-2020 by aromaticfanatic] |
You are saying that you plan to make rockets, but you have not even done enough research to know that they used gunpowder for over a thousand years...
I suggest you do some more reading. |
You're not reading what I'm writing. I am plasticizing black powder into a clay like moldable putty. I know black powder rockets exist they were the
first to be made by the chinese.
Try reading what I'm saying and see if the answer changes. Would a putty black powder work? I don't think it would well as a rocket fuel.
I've made castable rocket fuels and such but if people read what I posted they'd know I'm going for a plasticized putty rocket fuel. Maybe I wasn't
clear enough.
TACP would work as a great plastic rocker fuel but it's also a high explosive.
I want the plastic because if you guys would read my posts and replies you'd know I'm just messing around with non high explosive plastics..
|
|
|
aromaticfanatic
Hazard to Others
Posts: 173
Registered: 10-9-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Gotcha I saw they had some metals as fuels as well IIRC so I was back at the mixture thing which shouldn't work.
|
|
|
symboom
International Hazard
Posts: 1143
Registered: 11-11-2010
Location: Wrongplanet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Doing science while it is still legal since 2010
|
|
Hexaminenickel perchlorate burns fast like black powder fuel and oxidizer all in one
|
|
|
TheMrbunGee
Hazard to Others
Posts: 364
Registered: 13-7-2016
Location: EU
Member Is Offline
Mood: Phosphorising
|
|
Rocket candy mentioned in site provided by barbs09 is actually quite powerful and quite easy/safe to make. KNO3 and sugar dissolved in water then
water removed - fuel and oxidizer is mixed close if not completely at molecular level, is moldable while warm and solid at rt°. Had a lot of fun
with it some time ago. I made finger sized strips from it and they occasionally propelled themselves when lighted and trowed into air, with no nozzles
or confinement.
|
|
|
yobbo II
National Hazard
Posts: 762
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Potassium chlorate and wax is used by some. Perk. would do too.
I wondered would the following work. A was is put into a ball mill and the ball mill put in a freezer. The was shoud grind to a powder.
Mix with chlorate or perchlorate. They should mix like powders if kept cold. Pack into rocked and warm to about 60C or so to get was to meld and let
solidify.
Yob
|
|
|
TheMrbunGee
Hazard to Others
Posts: 364
Registered: 13-7-2016
Location: EU
Member Is Offline
Mood: Phosphorising
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II | Potassium chlorate and wax is used by some. Perk. would do too.
I wondered would the following work. A was is put into a ball mill and the ball mill put in a freezer. The was shoud grind to a powder.
Mix with chlorate or perchlorate. They should mix like powders if kept cold. Pack into rocked and warm to about 60C or so to get was to meld and let
solidify.
Yob |
Wax can be cheese grated, then blended to a powder. (At least paraffin and stearic acid can be)
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1716
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
I seriously doubt it will work, for a couple of reasons.
Your first problem is that most plasticizers are based on oils and waxes, and these have a fairly low boiling point. So they tend to act as burn rate
retarders. I know pyro's have used oil to tune burn rates rather than changing the composition, a few percent makes a huge difference. The second
problem is that it will most likely suffer from erosive burn as the propellant is subjected to high temperatures and very high gas flow rates.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
NewKidOnDaBlock
Harmless
Posts: 2
Registered: 12-1-2020
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by yobbo II | Potassium chlorate and wax is used by some. Perk. would do too.
I wondered would the following work. A was is put into a ball mill and the ball mill put in a freezer. The was shoud grind to a powder.
Mix with chlorate or perchlorate. They should mix like powders if kept cold. Pack into rocked and warm to about 60C or so to get was to meld and let
solidify.
Yob |
Interesting approach. The first thing that comes to mind for me is how the oxidizer powders disperse and suspend in the melted wax especially if
they're left to solidify. Sedimentation of the powders is possible during processing which would impact the propellant burn rate as a large amount of
oxidizer would be at the bottom.
Second, the ball milling process causes agglomeration and you say that "They should mix like powders if kept cold" but if both powders are cohesive it
will take ages based on reports. Longer times (up to 2 days) were needed for obtaining a homogenous powder mixture (ceramic powders). Also, as the
wax/chlorate or perchlorate powder mixture is being packed, melted etc, what's going to break up and disperse the oxidizer agglomerates? Ineffective
processing methods are a factor that influences lower burn rates.
Potentially, the temp you melt the wax could be a little lower to get a higher but processable viscosity that enables a good suspension of
chlorate/perchlorate powder but you would still have the issue of agglomerates and dispersion. I don't suppose you have a RAM lying around? That would
kill 3 birds with 1 stone. It will melt the wax (as it heats up), create a homogenous blend, and break up agglomerates.
[Edited on 7-10-2020 by NewKidOnDaBlock]
|
|
|
Herr Haber
International Hazard
Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by NewKidOnDaBlock |
Interesting approach. The first thing that comes to mind for me is how the oxidizer powders disperse and suspend in the melted wax especially if
they're left to solidify. Sedimentation of the powders is possible during processing which would impact the propellant burn rate as a large amount of
oxidizer would be at the bottom.
[Edited on 7-10-2020 by NewKidOnDaBlock] |
Sedimentation ? Ok, I'd have said segregation but if you mean the same as I do I think the easy fix is... not to melt the wax.
Applying enough pressure to sinter the composition should be fairly easy and solve this problem at the same time.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
|
|
|
NewKidOnDaBlock
Harmless
Posts: 2
Registered: 12-1-2020
Member Is Offline
|
|
Going to be hard-pressed for a single component propellant - majority are composites. Non-energetic plasticizers will reduce the final performance
output due to lower oxygen balance. Aromaticfanatic, if you're just working with non-energetics, the effect on burn rate generally follows the energy
content of the binder-plasticizer (least to greatest):
Polyester < polyether < polyurethane < polybutadiene < energetic compound
I think you were referring to binder-plasticizer migration in previous posts? Not sure if this will be useful in your search but, molecular weight
(Mn) oligomeric materials of 200 or lower tend to be volatile and migrate very readily. The average Mn to give optimal plasticizing effect between 400
to 1000 but it also depends on the rest of your formulation. If you end up going for a composite propellant, migration can be reduced by picking
components with similar structures because this will increase the miscibility and chemical compatibility between them.
I'm currently designing novel binders and it's a pain because of so many different factors.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5126
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Online
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As a matter of semantics, does cordite count as a single component?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
