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cnidocyte
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Opening lithium batteries with copper tube cutters
I tried the old fashioned method (using a needle nose pliers) to open up a lithium battery but its way too tedious and time consuming so I'm gonna
just a copper tube cutter instead. This is the kinda tube cutter I have
I have these Energizer Ultimate Lithium batteries
which are quite expensive, so I don't want to play around with them and risk shorting the battery and wrecking the lithium. When you peel the wrapper
off one of these batteries, it is a cylinder but has a groove near the negative terminal
I wonder if I should just cut at that groove. I saw NurdRage's video on using a needle nose pliers to extract lithium
http://www.youtube.com/user/NurdRage#p/search/9/BliWUHSOalU
and from what I can see there is a spacer at the very top but I don't know if thats all I'd be bypassing by cutting at this groove. I don't know what
he was talking about when he said release valve.
If I was to cut the battery at that groove, I think I will bypass the spacer and release valve and all that crap and be left with just the core hes
talking about. Has anyone here used a copper tube cutter to get lithium out of a battery? If so where do you cut?
[Edited on 9-9-2010 by cnidocyte]
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peach
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You mean, like this....
I watch NurdRage's videos all the time, and speak to him, but there are alternatives. If you bridge the terminals on a charged cell, the battery will
start warming up. Fast. It may pop and spew it's insides through the vent (electrolytic capacitors have these two, weak spots on the casing that pop
before they turn into mini-bombs). It won't happen like a firework going off, you'll feel it start getting warm, then coffee temperature about a
minute later. Chuck it outside and get on with something else, then check back later. It'll probably be fine.
The Nurd is correct, do this outside. It absolutely STINKS! This coming from the hydrogen chloride huffer. I did one in the kitchen, then took the
rubbish outside and binned it. I could still smell it, instantly, hours later and a trace of it the next day. People in the house at the time left the
room it stank so badly. Smells like a rancid egg that's been left at the bottom of a stagnant pond for a hundred years.
You do need to move very quickly once the roll is unwound, it'll start oxidizing (visibly) within seconds.
Once you've done a few with pliers, it gets a lot quicker as you start dumping some force on them; I got my second one open about as quickly as the
pipe cutter guy, but using pliers. I'm the person replying to the guy who made that video above, in the comments section. Take note of us both
suggesting a butterfly nut cutter, those kind (the one he's using and in your piccy) will blister your handies if you have to do a lot of cutting
(particularly through steel); the knurling digs in and it's hard to turn the knurled nut when compared to a butterfly.
The zinc and alkaline batteries are easypeasy, the casing is much softer.
[Edited on 9-9-2010 by peach]
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metalresearcher
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Is there not an explosion risk when you shortcut the battery ?
Lots of H2 gas are then released with the explosion hazard.
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h2o2guru
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Have you opened one of these before ??
If I remember correctly energizers are not "really" lithium cells.
They are lithium "boosted" zinc cells. they use a zinc/lithium alloy.
The voltage is too low to be a "real" lithium primary cell.
1.6-1.7 volts.
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h2o2guru
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oops , I just looked at their specs , and yes they are lithium / iron disulfide batteries !
brain fart !!
I must have been thinking of the earlier generation.
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aonomus
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I'm pretty sure the blue label energizer lithium batteries are true lithium primary cells, however I'm left wondering what these cheaper orange label
lithium cells are; perhaps they are zinc-lithium cells?
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Sedit
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I do it all the time when opening them, it is my method of choice for years. However make sure you have new ones dedicated for the job and that you
got VERY VERY slowly when cutting it because if you go to fast even a little you will bevel the shell inward and it will make pulling out the contents
bad if not impossible. Start at the bottom and cut, do not go for the top.
If done right in a few minutes you will be able to just grab the entire contents and drop it into some Naptha or mineral spirits which it should be
unwound in.
[Edited on 10-9-2010 by Sedit]
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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aonomus
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I'm halfway tempted to buy a disposable argon cylinder and regulator to try this inside a diy glove-bag to give me all the time in the world.
Unfortunately you still have to deal with the iron disulfide and associated odors.
Edit:
I found more info for reference:
Applications page on the LiFe2S batteries: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiuml91l92_appman.pdf
MSDS for LiFe2S batteries: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiumirondisulfide_psds.pdf
MSDS for LiMnO2 batteries: http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiummangdioxide_psds.pdf
[Edited on 10-9-2010 by aonomus]
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peach
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peach
Bon Vivant
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value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OaIJG92G7ZU?fs=1&hl=en_GB&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b&border=1"></param>&
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entropy51
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Very enlightening video, peach!
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peach
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It's coming up on bonfire night, a time when us brits celebrate Guy Fawkes' attempt to nuke parliament off the map by setting fire to a facsimile of
him.
I thought it was time for some pretty colours.
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entropy51
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Aye, yes, covered in Oliver Sacks' book "Uncle Tungsten". It's a good read, if you haven't already read it.
I still worry about your chemical exposures, however. None of this stuff is really benign.
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peach
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WHO SAID THAT?! {feels dizzy}
You're probably right, sometimes....  At the moment, I'm more concerned about
the 30 cigarettes I went through today. That certainly IS self harm. And very addictive.
I've heard of that book before and people saying it was good, so I'll have a look for it. I recommend in return, Bad Science and Freakanomics. Neither
of those are jokes, they're both good. I'd be surprised if you didn't find them interesting, funny or enjoy them.
[Edited on 11-9-2010 by peach]
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cnidocyte
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Thanks for the link, I was looking for a video on this. That pretty much answers my questions.
What compound causes the smell?
Quote: Originally posted by peach  | | Once you've done a few with pliers, it gets a lot quicker as you start dumping some force on them; I got my second one open about as quickly as the
pipe cutter guy, but using pliers. |
I gave up on that method as the needle nose pliers kept losing its grip. I turned the circular tip of the terminal square in the process but I didn't
even come close to getting that cap off.
| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | I do it all the time when opening them, it is my method of choice for years. However make sure you have new ones dedicated for the job and that you
got VERY VERY slowly when cutting it because if you go to fast even a little you will bevel the shell inward and it will make pulling out the contents
bad if not impossible. Start at the bottom and cut, do not go for the top.
If done right in a few minutes you will be able to just grab the entire contents and drop it into some Naptha or mineral spirits which it should be
unwound in.
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Thanks a lot, that answered a few unasked questions I had. I wonder how the ion flow happens in this cell. Is there some kinda membrane in the plastic
separator?
[Edited on 11-9-2010 by cnidocyte]
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peach
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The lithium spool is the anode. As far as I'm aware of things, it's basically pure lithium. It certainly responds as such to flames, water and it
feels right (e.g. I can tear it like a piece of paper and it's about as soft as undercooked pasta; the best kind, al dente if you're getting picky).
In the energerizers, Iron Disulphide (the Iron part of their name) is the cathode and creates the rotten egg stench. This is also called 'Fools gold',
as it looks like a nugget of gold.
Very pretty. If you have a look at the wiki, it's one of those things that forms 'computery' looking structures and very visibly shows up odd crystal
structures, where two systems overlap each other and 'stick into' each other, as opposed to forming as truly separate systems.
I tried tricking my little brother into thinking I'd found a nugget of pure gold by burying some in the back yard at one point, then digging it up in
front of him and acting surprised, after my older brother fed me washing powder saying it was a new kind of sherbet; and that the blue bits were a
special flavouring.
The lithium is separated from the cathode by a layer of plastic between the two, which the ions can move through but the components can not, stopping
them from immediately shorting and reacting with each other (they can now only interact with each other by passing charge through the circuit
connected to the battery).
Here's a long PDF from energizer all about them
I can summarize most of that for removing the lithium.
The over current / burst vent are at the very top, so cutting at the bottom may help avoid accidents.
Descriptions go as far as 'an organic solvent' for the ions. The solvent is there to help the ions flow, but the inside is pretty much dry to the
touch, it's only there in tiny traces.
The energizers don't contain thionyl chloride or sulphur dioxide. Energizer won't want to handle the chloride in the first place. It's hard to get,
dangerous and needs special measures taking, increasing the cell price. They also won't want customers exposed to it if the cells burst. So there's a
drive for them to get rid of it.
Don't give up the pliers too quickly. I found a lot of violent actually gets them open quicker and safer, as I can get them apart before they have a
chance to heat up. That is not to say, use a hammer.
I used needle nose pliers as well. Try crushing the casing around the top, at the nipple. That usually helps loosen up the cap, which then pulls off.
I found mole grips (the pliers that clamp like a vice) work well for that; and crushing coins. It's also quite likely going to short the cell, so
expect it to warm up.
The few first are a pain in the ass to get open, as the casing is a lot tougher on these. But it's possible and not that difficult
once you've got a couple done.
Remember, perseverance is paramount and proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance.
[Edited on 11-9-2010 by peach]
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cnidocyte
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I successfully got the lithium strip out of a battery just there and immediately immersed it in a jar of white spirit (a hydrocarbon distillate)
expecting no reaction at all to occur but bubbles started forming. I don't know whats going on so I sealed the jar and put it at the end of the garden
where nobody will be within range of it if anything bad happens. Why are there bubbles forming in a jar of hydrocarbons with some lithium submerged?
My god that iron disulfide stuff reeks doesn't it. I don't want to store something that smelly in my lab at the moment so I disposed of it.
My fume hood isn't up and running yet and I didn't have a mask so I did this outside. Is there anything exceptionally hazardous about the contents of
these cells? I wore gloves and goggles but I was a bit worried about fumes.
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peach
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There's nothing super toxic in there.
I don't know what the organic solvent is, but Energizer won't have spent R&D cash on it if it's not safer than thionyl chloride. The latter is
extremely dangerous, so much so it's listed on the chemical weapons control acts.
The sulphide does indeed STINK
The bubbles mean your liquid is likely contaminated with water, and the lithium is reacting with it.
DO NOT seal bottles that you even suspect are capable of evolving gas, let alone ones that are doing so visibly. I wouldn't be
surprised if that one has burst when you check it. Be very careful picking it up if it hasn't.
The cathode, the part that stinks, will release sulphur dioxide under oxidizing / acidic conditions. That will burn, seriously, if you breath it in.
But it's not systemically toxic, mutagenic, teratogenic or any of the other real nasty shit. My cigarettes are all of the above.
[Edited on 11-9-2010 by peach]
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mnick12
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The bubbles are probably from moisture in your white spirits, nothing to be worried about unless there is alot of water in it.
Also has anyone weighed the amount of lithium in a AA sized battery? If I remember correctly when I opened some for my lithium bronze expiriments
there was something like .93or.94gr of lithium in each battery.-Does this sound right?
Thanks
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peach
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| Quote: Originally posted by mnick12 | The bubbles are probably from moisture in your white spirits, nothing to be worried about unless there is alot of water in it.
Also has anyone weighed the amount of lithium in a AA sized battery? If I remember correctly when I opened some for my lithium bronze expiriments
there was something like .93or.94gr of lithium in each battery.-Does this sound right?
Thanks |
Yeah, it's something around that. Not a lot, but easily enough for pretty colours and drying things. I did weigh mine, but then forgot.
[Edited on 11-9-2010 by peach]
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cnidocyte
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| Quote: Originally posted by peach |
DO NOT seal bottles that you even suspect are capable of evolving gas, let alone ones that are doing so visibly. I wouldn't be
surprised if that one has burst when you check it. Be very careful picking it up if it hasn't. |
Yeah sorry I should have mentioned I sealed it after the bubbles stopped forming. Although it was well outta the way, flying gas, white spirit and
lithium wouldn't be good lol.
| Quote: Originally posted by peach |
Yeah, it's something around that. Not a lot, but easily enough for pretty colours and drying things. I did weigh mine, but then forgot.
|
Besides showing people a flaming ball of lithium rolling around on the surface of a beaker of water, the only thing I can think of to do with it right
now is react it with ethanol and make some lithium ethoxide. What I will do with the lithium ethoxide I have no idea but it feels good putting some of
my chem theory into practice.
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peach
Bon Vivant
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You could react it some halogen sources to make a little array of various lithium salts, cleaner than you'd get them in bath salt form.
That lithium will be fairly pure. I may try to squeeze an actual number out of Energizer for it. Making it a potentially usable source for analytical
grade lithium based compounds.
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Sedit
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I have the notes somewhere and I will correct it when I find them but the amount of Li is something on the order of 1.2 grams per battery.
Open a battery and toss the Li into water and let me know when you get flames from it and not just alot of violent fizzing. I will be waiting for the
pictures of this...
However if a drop or two is placed on the strip in open air it will catch fire easy.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: | | It's coming up on bonfire night, a time when us brits celebrate Guy Fawkes' attempt to nuke parliament off the map |
So it WAS Guy Fawkes who first discovered fission and attempted to make a weapon out of it! I knew the Manhattan Project was a hoax. Or maybe the
aliens told him how to do it? This could be the precursor to the first industrial revolution!
Finally, my suspicions have been confirmed.
| Quote: | | by setting fire to a facsimile of him. |
Get over it already! I can see that British government propaganda is still in full force even after all these years. I guess you have to have some
sort of scapegoat to keep the people distracted from the real despots. Think Goldstein in 1984 (where did that idea come from I wonder?)
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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zed
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What are you talking about? The abbreviation gr. means GRAINS, not GRAMS.
They are not even remotely similar!
So what is it? Grains or Grams?
A Gram of Lithium is a small amount. A Grain is a tiny amount.
Gram= 1000mg. Grain= ~65mg.
Clarify.
[Edited on 12-9-2010 by zed]
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