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harmlessexperiment
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concentrating household ammonia?
Hi, I was wondering if it would be possible to concentrate household ammonia (5-10%) to say 15M ammonia water?
I was thinking you could gas it with NH3, but how would you know when to stop?
[Edited on 27-2-2010 by harmlessexperiment]
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hissingnoise
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If you have a clear solution you can gas it.
An inverted funnel in a stirred solution will work best.
At saturation, NH3 will blow (cough!) out of the funnel and the supply can be stopped at that point.
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woelen
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You can concentrate dilute NH3 by adding a lot of NaOH to such a dilute solution and then heating it. NH3 gas will get out of the solution. You can
lead that gas through another amount of dilute NH3 making stronger NH3.
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harmlessexperiment
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>>You can concentrate dilute NH3 by adding a lot of NaOH to such a dilute solution and then heating it. NH3 gas will get out of the solution.
You can lead that gas through another amount of dilute NH3 making stronger NH3.
woloen: that sounds do-able, but determining the concentration of it would be difficult would'nt it?
See when NH4OH gets above a certain point it becomes unstable warm conditions. 15M is what I'm after. Or maybe slightly less. I mean yield is one
thing, but having glass imbedded in your face is quite another.
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harmlessexperiment
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Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  | | Quote: Originally posted by harmlessexperiment | | See when NH4OH gets above a certain point it becomes unstable warm conditions. 15M is what I'm after. Or maybe slightly less. I mean yield is one
thing, but having glass imbedded in your face is quite another. |
Dissolving NH3 in weaker NH3 solution will
not explode, if that's what you think. It is exothermic so it needs to be cooled.
The concentration can be determined by measuring the density of the NH3 solution or guess what? Titration. |
Hey Entropy, sorry for my poor choice of words. What I meant was that NH4OH solution in an enclosed containter can build up a lot of pressure, even in
warm conditions.
About density, wouldn't that require a volumetric flask?
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woelen
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If you really want concentrated NH3, then start off from other things than dilute NH3. Mix a salt like NH4Cl, NH4NO3 or (NH4)2SO4 with solid NaOH and
add a few drops of water to get the reaction starting. Pure NH3-gas is evolved and you can dissolve that in water until no more will dissolve. You can
also use the NH3-gas directly.
Instability is not an issue with NH3, this compound is very stable.
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ScienceSquirrel
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The 10% clear solution is widely available where I live and I find it quite cheap and convenient to use.
It works out as about 5.8 molar which is quite a strong solution.
Certainly enough for most reactions and I have l have always had satisfactory results by adjusting the volumes or concentrating the solutions a little
after the addition.
The 0.880 ammonia is available from specialist cleaning firms etc.
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pantone159
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I am kind of confused about the labeling on the 10% solution. My ACE brand "Janitor strength ammonia" says '10% ammonium hydroxide' which I interpret
as 100g of "NH4OH" (FW 35), which comes out to 2,85 mol/kg. But if I count 10% NH3, that comes to 5.88 mol/kg.
[sheepish]Sadly I have not settled the question by doing a titration.[/slacker]
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by pantone159 | I am kind of confused about the labeling on the 10% solution. My ACE brand "Janitor strength ammonia" says '10% ammonium hydroxide' which I interpret
as 100g of "NH4OH" (FW 35), which comes out to 2,85 mol/kg. But if I count 10% NH3, that comes to 5.88 mol/kg.
[sheepish]Sadly I have not settled the question by doing a titration.[/slacker]
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Pantone, I titrated my Ace janitorial as 5.1N and concluded that the "10%" is NH3, not NH4OH. Apparently this is a mislabeling by Ace. See:
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=4597#p...
Why are we so zealous about assisting this apparent drug cook, anyway?
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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psychokinetic
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'Cause this is the only thread they've made without making any dick moves thus far? 
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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woelen
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The subject of making ammonia or
concentrating ammonia is a subject which is quite interesting on its own. Ammonia has many interesting non-drugs applications in (home-)chemistry.
I would say that if a bottle tells 10% ammonia, then it is 10% NH3 and not 10% NH4OH. The "entity" NH4OH is a misnomer, it hardly exists and ammonia
contains only a tiny fraction of NH4(+) and OH(-) ions.
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psychokinetic
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | The subject of making ammonia or concentrating ammonia is a subject which is quite interesting on its own. Ammonia has many interesting non-drugs
applications in (home-)chemistry. |
I'd never trust myself to use a product I made for consumption/food related purposes (well, yet), but would there be much of a danger in concentrating
NH3 for fertiliser use from household product?
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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ScienceSquirrel
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Any technical chemical or reagent can be way off.
Really 10% ammonia could be as low as 5M or as high as 6M depending on how it has been made or how long it has sat on the shelf.
Most preparations use technical reagents and there are large excesses used.
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harmlessexperiment
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So let's talk about it.. HYow would you gas an NH3OH solution and then titrate it to determine the NH3 content? What equipment would one require? A
dropping funnel? How long would it take.?
Guys honestly, I'm not a criminal. Atleast I'm not after making a profit etc. I just have a narrow set of interests. I'm not that good at chemistry
but if you'd help me then maybe one day I could be? hear me?
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User
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titration
Dude first hit on google...
What a fine day for chemistry this is.
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harmlessexperiment
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Thanks, Ill stop asking for spoon-feeding. Ill find the info. thanks again...
Oh one more thing. if someone could point me in the direction for a good beginners chemistry tutorial or pdf, then that'd be great.
Of course, for a titration tutorial I guess google would be adequate.
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psychokinetic
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What are you two thinking for? Stop it.
-------------------------------------------------
You're quite right, harmlessexperiment. A lot of people are weary of the internet because of its editability, but if you find the same information 5
times, it's *probably* correct. Just make sure you check out a web page's credibility before believing it and ending up blowing yourself up
Don't fear the google 
Also, I'm pretty sure there are tutorial documents posted throughout this site. Tried searching?
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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dann2
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Hello,
In a last ditched desperate attempt at warding off the (evil and unbelievebly ugly) Pear of Salamanca I will give thee this link.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed018p29
Dann2
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not_important
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If one lived in very southern climes, one could simply place a closed bucket of dilute aqueous ammonia outside near the end of summer, and in the
depths of winter filter off a solution of about 30% . This seems about as practical as obtaining a tank of pure NH3 these days in many countries.
Else you could place dilute aqueous ammonia and sufficient salt to saturate that much water into a large flask, attach stopper with exit tube leading
to an anti-suckback device (as posted early on) and slowly heat the flask of NH3 (aq) to near 100 C. The added salt helps drive off more of the NH3,
and can be recover by simply allowing the remaining solution to evaporate. If you don't do that, the remaining rather dilute ammonia can be poured
onto your compost pile.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Thread Split
10-3-2010 at 09:17 |
bquirky
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Perhaps the dude is making a fridge.. theres nothing wrong with ammonia
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agorot
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Know what I've always wondered? I know this is not really a biology forum, but I wonder if there is some nitrogen-fixing bacteria that can produce
ammonia that the home chemist could isolate. How cool would that be?
Ammonia is quite toxic...maybe the bacteria would kill themselves off if you didn't keep removing the ammonia from the system.
Alternatively you could harvest ammonium nitrate how it was made the old-fashioned way and then use a strong base. I'd love to do this actually, but
I'm not sure I'm willing yet to put up with the stink.
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not_important
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Nitrogen fixing bacteria do produce ammonia, but it is quickly cycled into producing amino acids. Concentrations of ammonia or ammonium ion above a
half millimole or so tend to inhibit nitrogen fixation or even cell growth.
The "old fashion way" produced potassium nitrate or calcium nitrate. Bacterial metabolism of proteins releases ammonia from the amino group of amino
acids, other bacteria oxidise the NH3 to nitrite and then nitrate. The nitrate is recovered as KNO3 if just organic material is used, if lime(stone)
is added then calcium nitrate may be harvested instead. The subject has been discussed at some length in other threads.
Another old method was the treatment of urine with quicklime or slaked lime and them blowing steam through the mix to drive off ammonia. Destructive
distillation of coal is yet another source, 2 or 3 kilos of NH3 per tonne of soft coal.
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by agorot | | I wonder if there is some nitrogen-fixing bacteria that can produce ammonia that the home chemist could isolate. How cool would that be?
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Not exactly nitrogen fixing, but some common bacteria such as Proteus vulgaris produce urease,
which converts urea to ammonia.Unlikely to be a practical source of NH3.
But some plant seeds contain a lot of urease, for example jack bean and watermelon seeds. A mixture of urine and powdered watermelon seeds (!) kept
at about 37 C, would likely produce enough NH3 to remove by aeration and trap in acid to make an ammonium salt. But really, (NH4)2SO4 fertilizer is
so available and cheap, why bother?
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agorot
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I guess I should just pony up and go to the garden store then. I wish I knew what to get. The problem is that I'm no nice old grandma with a cane.
It's not that I look like a druggie or wear a hoodie around with the hood up all the time, but I am a young, strong white male that probably looks
like the stereotypical bomb-maker.
I'm also concerned that I wouldn't get something very pure, but if it's mostly ammonium sulfate then I could just add a base and probably wouldn't
have problems.
Any way to easily identify an ammonium sulfate fertilizer? Or does it say it on the bag. I'm a little scared to browse the fertilizer section so I'm
unfamiliar with the products, but maybe I'm just being unreasonable.
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psychokinetic
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I know that feeling, Harmless. You feel like a cook whether you are one or not.
I was just friendly and to the point. Said what I needed and got necessary help.
Even better if you do a bit more looking around and find out what you need. And yes, it should say on the bag.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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