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mario840
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the journal of irreproducible results presents: KCN from KOH and formamide
Hello
I have a question how about making HCN form formamide and P2O5 ??
Drop slowly formamide into P2O5 and this makes HCN as white smoke then bubbling gas into solution KOH in water or ethanol ?? I heard that's works well
In wikipedia says they made KCN form formamide and KOH ?? Maybe that will works ?
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Myfanwy
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you can make KCN directly from potassium hydroxide and formamide. no hydrogen cyanide fumes and you mustnt waste your phosphorus pentoxide 
then pour the new solution into ethanol and the KCN crystalls appear.
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mario840
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thanks for reply ..... so i must have formamide and then pour solution KOH in ethanol but how much concentration % i must have, and how much formamide
i need, how much KOH solution for example 100 ml formamide and 100 ml 40% KOH in ethanol ?? please tell me more about this process because it's much
safer than the others ... and how about yield ??? for any information thx
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Myfanwy
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CH3NO + KOH -> KCN + 2H2O
For 20g KCN u need 13,8g Formamide and 17,2g KOH. Then u get 20g KCN and 11g Water.
but formamide is unfortunately not that easy to make. you can make it by ammonolysis of formate esters. lets say with ethyl formate and ammonia. send
a stream of ammonia by ammonium salt and sodium hydroxide through the ester. no ammonia solution, because ethyl formate hydrolysis very fast.
with an ammonia solution i got nearly no formamide.
i think the formamide can also made by the reaction of Ammonium formate with urea.
and formic acid and an acid amide? what are u thinking guys?
i would use concentrated potassium hydroxide solution. but it will also work with dilute.
some more questions?
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mario840
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so let's close up this reaction ... i need like you said 13,8 g formamide (no problem for me easy to get pure ) and then i dissolved ??? 17,2 g KOH or make solution KOH in 96% ethanol ??? which one is good ??? KOH disoles in
formamide easily or not???
If not disolve then i must do solution in ethanol and then should immediately KCN crystals appers or i must heat up the reaction solution ?? tell me
all that and i'm done 
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Myfanwy
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lol where you get this stuff^^
okay i would dissolve it in 20g water and then adding the alcohol,when the reaction is done, because KOH isnt that good soluble in alcohol.
but at first try it in a test tube. i dont even know,if potassium hydroxide dissolves in formamide, but this reaction is done in the indstry, to get
potassium cyanide, so im sure this will work =P
all thecrystalls will appear, when u add the alcohol. i think u dont have to heat it.
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mario840
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form the store 
Hey but i have read that formamide is easily hydrolized by acids and base ??? so it's really works with KOH ??? because this really worried me
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Myfanwy
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jes we want to hydrolyze it xDD
bases form cyanide salts and acids will make hydrogen cyanide.
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mario840
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ohhhh that's sound great!!
tell me more about your methods of preparation of cyanides ....
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Myfanwy
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mh making cyanides is legal in germany.
youre right. HCN in air isnt that poisonous as many think.
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mario840
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don't be scared ... do everything easy and carefully and photos and movie will be fantastic knowlege to me how to do it in the future, as you finished
experiment write did it works , how yield you got
@S.C. Wack .... yes but heating this to 600 C ??? i'd prefer simple adding CH3NO to P2O5 without any heat and other stuff .. of course if you heat
that mixture formamide/P2O5 at the end you will get much more HCN and KCN so i
prefer this metod or metod of Myfanwy
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kmno4
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Quote: Originally posted by Myfanwy  |
CH3NO + KOH -> KCN + 2H2O
okay i would dissolve it in 20g water and then adding the alcohol,when the reaction is done, because KOH isnt that good soluble in alcohol.
but at first try it in a test tube. i dont even know,if potassium hydroxide dissolves in formamide, but this reaction is done in the indstry, to get
potassium cyanide, so im sure this will work =P
all thecrystalls will appear, when u add the alcohol. i think u dont have to heat it. |
It will work only in your dreams.
It is time to wake up and go to school.
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mario840
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@kmno4 so you telling that reaction is wrong ... and only way to get KCN from formamide is dehydration with P2O5 and then "gassing" lye ????? tell
me more and don't be rude because it nothing change and just wanna know
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Myfanwy
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okay kmno4 tell me whats wrong at this reaction.
i think it must work -> indutrial method
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Myfanwy
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only saying it wont work is a little bit dumb, sry.
i need a explanation
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mario840
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ohhhhh but i hope you don't change your mind about experiment today ...
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kmno4
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It is your industrial method, not working in reality.
Try to read more scientific literature than Wikipedia.
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Myfanwy
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jes i will make the experiment today. i just made the photos of the chemicals and of the glasswear.
i take 41g H3PO4, this is an massive overkill. I just need 15g.
even my chemical database says,that formamide forms cyanides with bases. hydrolysis in aqueous soltions in presence of acids or bases.
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kmno4
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It seems to me that your NaCN is not dried (> 100 C) and yield of dry product may be even below 5 g.
Can you write from what database/book/encyclopedia/article/paper you have this information ?
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Myfanwy
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yes its not dried. but 5g are better than nothing
Taoisearch it was under 0°C outside and i used 2Kg Ice to cool it.
But even with this cooling most HCN just gassed away.
If i made it again i would use an ethanolic solution of NaOH.
kmno4 i have it from a german database called "gestis".
[Edited on 31-1-2010 by Myfanwy]
[Edited on 31-1-2010 by Myfanwy]
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S.C. Wack
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There is obviously no way that NaCN is going to be produced by hydrolysis.
They obviously use NaOH to absorb the HCN.
This is obviously not the same.
Really wish y'all would raise your standards instead of bringing us down to yours.
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ramual
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CH3NO + KOH ---> Gas
I've read at lot of sites and books, that Formamide + Potassium Hydrooxide will give Potassium Cyanide + water
CH3NO + KOH --> KCN + H2O
but i am getting = CH3NO + KOH --> GAS + Some thing
May be the out put is reacting again
KCN + H2O -> HCN + KOH
as the output gas smell like HCN
I tried to cool it and convert it to liquid HCN but failed. So i doubt if i m correct.
can some one guide me
[Edited on 6-2-2010 by ramual]
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S.C. Wack
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So we're going to let this continue then. Wow. The sheeple have been trained well, and are probably looking forward to more.
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Myfanwy
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the mixture becomes hot by its own.
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Polverone
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Real chemical processes need a little more to be plausible than the faint praise of "it wouldn't violate the conservation of mass."
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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