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Rich_Insane
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Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Simple Question -- Obtaining Pyrotechnic Supplies
Hey guys, I've decided to abandon my previous ambitions for now (organic chemistry), because I'm a dirt poor kid. So I've decided to go into
Energetics again, and very simple ones.
Currently I'm buying my KNO3 from Ebay from a supplier that sells it for 2 bucks a pound (but 5 bucks shipping >.> . But to make some BP, which I would like to attempt, I need charcoal, sulfur, and some
Visco fuse. Now, my major drawback is that I'm a poor kid using Paypal. A lot of the good pyro sources require credit cards. I would like to pay by
Paypal.
Recently, I bought from a nice supplier in the UK, but unfortunately, I live in the USA, and it's harder to find good pyro suppliers around here. So
do you all have recommendations? MY budget is a maximum of 15 bucks per item including shipping.... That's my budget (I'm so cheap).
Is Visco fuse available OTC?
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grndpndr
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Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
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Many stores sell debit cards,VISA Etc from $25 up to IIRC $200.Those work in lieu of regular CCs,or all online trnsaction ive used.Tryed my bank act
debit card whcih was stolen within a few purhases from rep stores.Musta had hackers,got my $ bk however.
Visco fuse Is available in most pyro supplies,better for caps/simple ignitin is e-matchs for rocketry etc.can be used as is fot ignitng pyro matches
or blasting caps wh imagination and firn train and simple primarys for HE's.
[Edited on 2-2-2010 by grndpndr]
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Swede
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If you live in the USA, you shouldn't be buying from the UK. The US has a number of excellent pyrotechnic suppliers with dirt cheap prices. Here are
some links:
http://www.americanpyrosupply.com/
http://www.hobbychemicalsupply.com/servlet/StoreFront
http://www.skylighter.com/
http://www.cannonfuse.com/store/pc/home.asp
Usually, it's the guys in Europe and Australia that have troubles obtaining supplies.
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ScienceSquirrel
International Hazard
Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
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Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination! 
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Really if you are doing pyrotechnics you should be doing it with an adult member of your family or a friend that can help you with the safety issues.
A small amount, say 5g of acetone peroxide, exploding in a hard glass tube close to your face could blind you for life.
Why not get in to some safe chemistry and go out and meet some young women or have fun with your friends?
Young love is a lot better than love later in life when you have jobs, children, etc.
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Mood: alive
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Safety? I've been working with smoke mixtures for a bit now. I despise organic peroxide. I won't even attempt making more than a few grams before
moving onto more stable stuff.... I'm not a k3wl like every other kid that lurks in pyro forums.... I've been studying chemistry for about two years
now. I don't get any lab experience. At all. Shows how sickening the education system, is now. I'm desperately bored, and science is my favorite
subject, and out of science chemistry is the most accessible (I dislike physics immensely....). And who doesn't like seeing something react quickly
and violently, eh?
Around here there's two things you can do: Be bored and smoke/cook meth. I really don't like those choices.
@grnpndr: Are there cards where you can deposit whatever amount of money you have in your Paypal directly to the card's corresponding account?
@Swede: Thanks! Your sources are legitimate. I thought you guys could get sodium chlorate as weed killer and KNO3 as fertilizer over there? I haven't
dug around as much, but the stuff here is pretty impure, if there is anything useful. But that Hobby Chemical supply  I tried to purchase some Charcoal, and they charged 14 bucks shipping on it? Since
when is ground ashes hazardous? Same thing on American Pyro supply..... I get my KNO3 shipped to me for 5 bucks shipping. Surely something's wrong
here? Why is charcoal so expensive to ship?
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densest
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 1-10-2005
Location: in the lehr
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Mood: slowly warming to strain point
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Charcoal is sometimes classified as "spontaneously igniting" which adds a hazmat fee (insert huge apoplectic outrage here).
If you are interested in pyrotechnics, contact the PGA (Pyrotechnics Guild of America) for info on a local pyro club which will give you support,
information, places to legally set off anything that is legal for anyone in the US to shoot, hints, tips, etc. The membership fees
may seem high. They pay for insurance requirements which have the force of law in the US (apoplexy again). The freedom to openly shoot your creations
at the scheduled shoots is worth a huge amount of money. If you can't afford the fees, talk to them anyway - many clubs have a "can't afford it" way
to join.
I would recommend skylighter.com as the best remaining amateur pyro supplier in the US. All the others have succumbed to the vendetta the CSPC has
against fireworks. The Consumer Products Safety Commission (an unelected and invulnerable body) has the open and frequently stated goal of banning all
fireworks in the USA. I recommend anyone living in the USA to write their elected officials (for whatever good it might do, ha ha ha) to restrict the
CSPC to hazards which imperil more than a few people a year - automobiles, for instance (ha ha ha hah ha).
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Wow, I used to think that the Energetics/Pyrotechnics side of Chemistry was the cheapest. This is as expensive as hell. Skylighter wants a $30 minimum
order. I just want a pound of charcoal and sulfur for under 25 bucks total......
What the hell is wrong with American Government? Am I getting the notion that this is becoming more and more of a retarded fascist state???!?!! 
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watson.fawkes
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You can buy a big bag of agricultural
sulfur for half that budget. It will require driving out of the city into places where people buy chemical soil amendments in big bags. It will also
require some processing before use, washing it, at least.
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ScienceSquirrel
International Hazard
Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
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Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination!
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Quote: Originally posted by densest  |
If you are interested in pyrotechnics, contact the PGA (Pyrotechnics Guild of America) for info on a local pyro club which will give you support,
information, places to legally set off anything that is legal for anyone in the US to shoot, hints, tips, etc. The membership fees
may seem high. They pay for insurance requirements which have the force of law in the US (apoplexy again). The freedom to openly shoot your creations
at the scheduled shoots is worth a huge amount of money. If you can't afford the fees, talk to them anyway - many clubs have a "can't afford it" way
to join.
I would recommend skylighter.com as the best remaining amateur pyro supplier in the US. All the others have succumbed to the vendetta the CSPC has
against fireworks. The Consumer Products Safety Commission (an unelected and invulnerable body) has the open and frequently stated goal of banning all
fireworks in the USA. I recommend anyone living in the USA to write their elected officials (for whatever good it might do, ha ha ha) to restrict the
CSPC to hazards which imperil more than a few people a year - automobiles, for instance (ha ha ha hah ha).
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Anyone interested in rocketry, pyrotechnics etc should consider joining a club.
The safety tips, insurance etc are to my mind invaluable, not only that but you are doing it legally and above board so no trouble with the
authorities, neighbours calling the police etc.
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Oh, I don't want to do fireworks. Just black powder, maybe a a few confined charges. We have very open fields here... I don't plan to continue BP for
a while, I want to move on to more interesting things. Before I can do that I have to stock on some equipment, especially a good distillation kit and
a good set of glassware.
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ScienceSquirrel
International Hazard
Posts: 1863
Registered: 18-6-2008
Location: Brittany
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Mood: Dogs are pets but cats are little furry humans with four feet and self determination!
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I do not see what you want to do.
Obtaining the materials to make black powder is straight forward.
Even if you cannot buy pure charcoal, sulphur and potassium nitrate from a supplier, equivalent materials are available if you look around, though
they will require some purification.
Obtaining, purifying and preparing the materials is good practice.
Simply put, you can start from barbecue charcoal, agricultural sulphur, a concentrated nitrate fertiliser and potassium chloride and make black
powder.
Hours of work as you clean, grind, distill and
crystallise your raw materials but you will learn a lot of chemistry on the way.
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Jor
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Registered: 21-11-2007
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane | Safety? I've been working with smoke mixtures for a bit now. I despise organic peroxide. I won't even attempt making more than a few grams before
moving onto more stable stuff.... I'm not a k3wl like every other kid that lurks in pyro forums.... I've been studying chemistry for about two years
now. I don't get any lab experience. At all. Shows how sickening the education system, is now. I'm desperately bored, and science is my favorite
subject, and out of science chemistry is the most accessible (I dislike physics immensely....). And who doesn't like seeing something react quickly
and violently, eh?
Around here there's two things you can do: Be bored and smoke/cook meth. I really don't like those choices.
@grnpndr: Are there cards where you can deposit whatever amount of money you have in your Paypal directly to the card's corresponding account?
@Swede: Thanks! Your sources are legitimate. I thought you guys could get sodium chlorate as weed killer and KNO3 as fertilizer over there? I haven't
dug around as much, but the stuff here is pretty impure, if there is anything useful. But that Hobby Chemical supply I tried to purchase some Charcoal, and they charged 14 bucks shipping on it? Since
when is ground ashes hazardous? Same thing on American Pyro supply..... I get my KNO3 shipped to me for 5 bucks shipping. Surely something's wrong
here? Why is charcoal so expensive to ship?
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Now how is that? I thought US was the big campus (parties enough). Or do you study in a very boring place?
I agree with ScienceSquirrel! Do not take too much risks with chemistry, or you might lose the other fun things such as girls indeed  , and friends. I find the combination of all these things very enjoyable 
[Edited on 7-2-2010 by Jor]
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
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Mood: Fissile
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane | Wow, I used to think that the Energetics/Pyrotechnics side of Chemistry was the cheapest. This is as expensive as hell. Skylighter wants a $30 minimum
order. I just want a pound of charcoal and sulfur for under 25 bucks total......
What the hell is wrong with American Government? Am I getting the notion that this is becoming more and more of a retarded fascist state???!?!! |
WTF? You think the retarded fascist state
is setting the prices of the chemicals you want to buy? You seem much too immature to be messing with chemicals, let alone explosives.
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densest
Hazard to Others
Posts: 359
Registered: 1-10-2005
Location: in the lehr
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Mood: slowly warming to strain point
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane | Wow, I used to think that the Energetics/Pyrotechnics side of Chemistry was the cheapest. This is as expensive as hell. Skylighter wants a $30 minimum
order. I just want a pound of charcoal and sulfur for under 25 bucks total......
What the hell is wrong with American Government? Am I getting the notion that this is becoming more and more of a retarded fascist state???!?!! |
Well, I've visited Harry's business (skylighter) and I'll tell you that the cost of packaging the materials to ship them legally is high. UPS and the
post office require triple-sealed containers in a sturdy (*legally defined*) box.
Your $15 would be much better spent buying Harry's latest improved "introductory practical pyrotechnics" book.
A couple of close fitting coffee cans or a burned-clean paint can with a good top, some wood (maple, poplar, whatever's available and dry... oak &
other really heavy woods aren't good), a nail to punch a little hole in the lid, a couple of hours sitting by the fire, and presto! instant fireworks
charcoal. Cost? $2 or 3 if you buy a gallon can at Home De$pot, free if you carefully burn and scrape out old paint from a discarded paint can. Lots
of places throw away pallets (big stores get palletloads of stuff) and the wood is cut, dry, and free.
Sodium nitrate is available if you look carefully in rural agricultural stores. 5 pounds for $8 or so. Potassium chloride is used to melt ice or to
regenerate water softeners. It comes in 50-pound bags for $15 or so. Sulfur is sometimes available in drugstores - check the "reduced for clearance"
shelves. An electric coffee grinder (goodwill, etc, or $15-25 new), a bottle of 95% isopropyl alcohol ($2 or so) and presto! black powder.
You need some sieves - a really fine one for the charcoal & a window screen to granulate when you're done.
Don't try grinding with a mortar & pestle - a small one won't grind more than a teaspoon at a time and a big one is expensive and will seriously
challenge your arm muscles. I'm assuming you'll use the "CIA method" since ball milling is a whole 'nother subject - remember that if you have
succeeded making good powder, it will go off soaking wet if overheated. So don't have any open flames or red-hot surfaces in sight.
It's guaranteed that the little spill you didn't notice will fall in the exact wrong place at the exact wrong time.
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Mood: alive
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| Quote: |
WTF? You think the retarded fascist state is setting the prices of the chemicals you want to buy? You seem much too immature to be messing with
chemicals, let alone explosives. |
I'm talking about the CPSC and shipping costs, sir. It really pissed me off at the moment.
The reason I haven't homemade charcoal is that I do not have a ball bill to grind it down to a very fine particle size. I also do not have a suitable
place to burn wood. I like densest's idea. I will give it a shot. I've heard charcoal briquettes are adultered with something that hinders quality of
BP. I have also ordered sulfur from a reliable supplier in the UK. It ended up being cheaper than buying from USA, despite international shipping.
What about burning some Birchwood in a ceramic/clay pot?
| Quote: |
Now how is that? I thought US was the big campus (parties enough). Or do you study in a very boring place? I agree with ScienceSquirrel! Do not take
too much risks with chemistry, or you might lose the other fun things such as girls indeed , and friends. I find the combination of all these things very enjoyable |
Nah, this is stereotypical suburb Western USA. If I had darker skin, it would be another subject, but I'm not. This is agreed, but I hardly regard BP
as risky as what other people pursue around these forums. There's really not much to do around here. I clearly understand the risks of everything. I'm
so paranoid, I almost call the ambulance if I ingest too much salt. I've even called the FBI because some retard sent me a joke about stalking me!
I live in Oregon. There's no good supply stores for anything around here. There are a few chemical supply houses, but I recall that it costed 70 bucks
for 500 ml of 10% HCl and 10% H2SO4. That's more than a ripoff. That was for my 4th grade project so long ago too, I bet prices have gone up.
[Edited on 7-2-2010 by Rich_Insane]
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
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Mood: Fissile
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| Quote: | | I'm talking about the CPSC and shipping costs, sir. It really pissed me off at the moment |
The CPSC has
nothing to do with shipping costs or requirements. You may mean DOT. But the incredible markup on shipping is how the vendors make their money. The
government sees not a penny of your shipping costs. And there are vendors who don't ship everything as hazardous; look for those people.
| Quote: | | There's no good supply stores for anything around here |
There are no good supply stores almost anyplace you
live. My recollection from your previous posts is that you're 14 years old, have no credit card, and your parents don't want you to buy chemicals.
I think you should stop being mad at someone, anyone whom you can blame. I think that you could find ways to get chemicals, same as I did when I was
14 years old. First thing is to make some money as in shoveling snow and mowing grass, just like I did. And you may have to learn enough chemistry
to make chemicals from the stuff that is sold in the local stores, and trust me the stuff is in the stores. I don't know why you have so much trouble
finding good OTC stuff. I find something new everytime I go to a hardware store.
But I really think the only solution to your problem is to find another hobby. You seem not to have the resources of one kind or another that it
takes to pursue an expensive hobby. It seems as if you want it all handed to you wrapped up with a nice bow on it.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Portland is a pretty nice place. If you don't think there is anything to do the problem isn't Portland.
I lived there until about 5 years ago. I still visit family a few times a year. Most houses have fireplaces or wood stoves. Outdoor charcoal barbecues
could be used for charcoal-making also. There are public recreation areas with outdoor fire pits and barbecues if you are desperate for a place to
make charcoal. If you can't find a place to burn wood, where are you going to burn BP?
I have seen potassium nitrate based stump remover products on shelves of Portland stores, including chains like Fred Meyer. You can also buy a few
ammonium nitrate based instant cold packs and produce KNO3 by metathesis. It's not the cheapest nitrate source, but it is convenient and if you don't
have the equipment to mill powder you shouldn't go through it very fast. You should also be able to find dusting sulfur with ease. You may ask at
nurseries or need to go to outer farming areas to find places that will sell nitrate fertilizer in large quantities. That is much cheaper per pound if
you can afford the initial purchase.
I bought 80 pounds of NH4NO3 and 50 of KNO3 for under $100 combined a few years ago in Oregon. I simply and truthfully told an employee at a
farm-oriented supplier that fertilizers were much cheaper sources of certain common chemicals than laboratory suppliers, so I was interested in any
unmixed fertilizers they could supply. I didn't get any suspicion or resistance.
You will also find hydrogen peroxide, technical grade sulfuric and hydrochloric acids, xylene, toluene, methanol, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, and
many more interesting chemicals on retail store shelves in the Portland area if you start reading labels and looking. Wake-up time: there's lots of
things to do in Portland and the surrounding environs, and there's plenty of chemicals on the shelves for pyrotechnics or other chemistry, but you
actually have to put effort in yourself.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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Mood: alive
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I have a lot of KNO3 and I have Sulfur on the way. My family isn't big on BP. I was going to set off BP in some of those swampy-forest areas that
never get dry (I'm sure you know what I'm talking about if you've lived in Oregon ). I don't have a permit or license to drive yet, so it's sort of hard to get around, and my parents aren't very supportive people.
I have a bunch of clay pots to burn wood for charcoal. I'm worried about how fine the charcoal needs to be to be used for BP. Most pyro grade charcoal
is very fine airfloat charcoal, but I don't have a ball mill to grind it down. I do, however have a coffee grinder.
Ace Hardware is plentiful here, I've bought Acetone from there... But where can I get H2O2? Ace doesn't sell that...
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The CPSC has nothing to do with shipping costs or requirements. You may mean DOT. But the incredible markup on shipping is how the vendors make their
money. The government sees not a penny of your shipping costs. And there are vendors who don't ship everything as hazardous; look for those people.
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No, that comment was on someone talking about how the CPSC was restricting everything that had to do with fireworks. Those vendors aren't very common,
and the ones that are those people don't accept Paypal.....'
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I think you should stop being mad at someone, anyone whom you can blame. I think that you could find ways to get chemicals, same as I did when I was
14 years old. First thing is to make some money as in shoveling snow and mowing grass, just like I did. And you may have to learn enough chemistry to
make chemicals from the stuff that is sold in the local stores, and trust me the stuff is in the stores. I don't know why you have so much trouble
finding good OTC stuff. I find something new everytime I go to a hardware store. But I really think the only solution to your problem is to find
another hobby. You seem not to have the resources of one kind or another that it takes to pursue an expensive hobby. It seems as if you want it all
handed to you wrapped up with a nice bow on it. |
Getting a little personal eh? I've actually worked pretty hard to get what I have now. I went overseas one time to buy some glassware. The problem is
that I can't go over to India every year to get glassware for record cheap prices (got an Ahlinn for 5 bucks  ). The problem is that there aren't any hardware stores in walking distance here, and no farm stores for miles. Unless
I want to be biking for three hours to reach the heart of the farming region, it's hard to get fertilizers. I live right behind the city and the farm.
My friends never understood why i hated this area so much. The issue is that the city is over the hills, and it's excessively difficult to reach the
city. The farms are close, but all the farm stores are 20 miles away. All the hardware stores are at the 5 mile mark, because I live in a
super-suburb.... The drug stores sells IP Alcohol and that's about it, unless one can do something with a pack of condoms and 3% H2O2. Money is really
hard to get around here.... There's already too many migrant workers doing the jobs that I would be doing (mowing lawn, landscaping, etc.). It doesn't
snow here.
The only job I do is go to a lab to work on research every week, and that's not even paid. If it was paid I wouldn't be in this subforum very much.
Even acquiring things like copper piping is hard here without breaking into houses and stealing duct piping.....
Now will someone give me some serious answers?
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
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Mood: Fissile
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| Quote: | | The only job I do is go to a lab to work on research every week, and that's not even paid. |
I see the
problem. | Quote: | | ...my parents aren't very supportive people. |
And I see another problem. Since you so quickly dismiss my
advice as non-serious I won't waste my time again.
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
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In the Portland area buses and MAX should supplement the range you can get from a bike alone. You can do the bulk of your travel on public transit
then do the last few miles on bike if the destination isn't within walking distance of a transit route. You can do a lot without a car. I didn't get a
car until I was 26.
I will admit that bike + public transit may not work for you if your parents are opposed. In fact I don't know of any way to tell you what you want to
hear if your parents are opposed to pyrotechnics also. I didn't get any financial support from my parents for my adolescent pyrotechny but I did at
least have their trust.
Here's an idea for you: try to get into the Apprenticeships in Science and Engineering program. It looks like it is too late to be part of the 2010 wave but keep it in mind for next year. If
you are really interested in science or engineering it is a great experience. When I did it it was a great addition to school applications and funded
some purchases I would not have been able to afford otherwise. I worked with an epilepsy researcher at Good Samaritan Hospital to visualize seizure
electrical activity projected onto patient skull data acquired by MRI. The pay was actually below minimum wage on an hourly basis when I did it a
decade ago -- it's an apprenticeship, not a job -- but you'll still have $2000 or so at the end of the summer and you'll get to do something more
interesting than mowing lawns or busing tables.
If you are trying to convince your parents that you are serious and responsible this may be a good way to do it. Even if they aren't swayed, the
program should provide you with enough money to fund basic chemistry experiments the rest of the time you are in high school.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
Member Is Offline
Mood: alive
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| Quote: |
In the Portland area buses and MAX should supplement the range you can get from a bike alone. You can do the bulk of your travel on public transit
then do the last few miles on bike if the destination isn't within walking distance of a transit route. You can do a lot without a car. I didn't get a
car until I was 26. |
That's perfect! Since you have lived up here and performed your hobby, have you bee to/heard of Nurnberg Scientific out on Virginia in Portland? Is it
worth heading out to? They will probably have some basic reagents like acids and bases, salts, and metals, right?
It's not that I did not think of public transport before; I just didn't very much know where to go other than ACE.
| Quote: |
Here's an idea for you: try to get into the Apprenticeships in Science and Engineering program. It looks like it is too late to be part of the 2010
wave but keep it in mind for next year. If you are really interested in science or engineering it is a great experience. When I did it it was a great
addition to school applications and funded some purchases I would not have been able to afford otherwise. I worked with an epilepsy researcher at Good
Samaritan Hospital to visualize seizure electrical activity projected onto patient skull data acquired by MRI. The pay was actually below minimum wage
on an hourly basis when I did it a decade ago -- it's an apprenticeship, not a job -- but you'll still have $2000 or so at the end of the summer and
you'll get to do something more interesting than mowing lawns or busing tables. |
That's really awesome, but I've already got some research that I've been working on for some time. I don't want to sound utterly greedy here, but I'm
wondering if I could make some money off of it. I've been working with melanin-based biological semiconductors for two years now.... The research
isn't ultra-breakthrough, but I really don't want it to sit in my logbook all my life.
| Quote: |
I will admit that bike + public transit may not work for you if your parents are opposed. In fact I don't know of any way to tell you what you want to
hear if your parents are opposed to pyrotechnics also. I didn't get any financial support from my parents for my adolescent pyrotechny but I did at
least have their trust. |
My parents want to know everything I'm doing, and I'm kind of afraid of telling them that I'm doing pyrotechnics... I'm not sure if they're for or
against it.
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I see the problem. |
That's totally not vague at all!
| Quote: |
If you are trying to convince your parents that you are serious and responsible this may be a good way to do it. Even if they aren't swayed, the
program should provide you with enough money to fund basic chemistry experiments the rest of the time you are in high school. |
Well, I've worked with stuff that's far more dangerous than BP or even some secondary explosives (in my eyes, and don't laugh, I work in microbiology
) like Conc HCl, Chlorform, Methanol, Acetylacetone, etc etc.
My parents really don't care about my hobby. They only care about my SAT, my school, etc. And I hate that. Textbooks annoy me (But I'm willing to
learn always).
@Polverone: Would you know any place in Portland that distributes such basic materials at a reasonable price?
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane |
That's perfect! Since you have lived up here and performed your hobby, have you bee to/heard of Nurnberg Scientific out on Virginia in Portland? Is it
worth heading out to? They will probably have some basic reagents like acids and bases, salts, and metals, right?
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I have some materials from them, but they were sourced through a school rather than by me directly. They are probably not well suited to your current
budget. I don't know if they sell directly to the public; I would be fairly surprised if they would sell to a minor unaccompanied by parents, at least
for anything remotely hazardous. There's another Portland-area member here, DetaDude, who said that Nurnberg wasn't the friendliest place even for
small businesses like his. If I were still living in the area I'd probably take a look at them, but try not to get hopes too high in advance.
Apart from Ace Hardware you should look at nursery and landscaping suppliers, paint stores, pool and spa suppliers, hydroponics, art ceramic
suppliers, health food stores, baking suppliers... it depends on what sort of chemistry you want to try. On your current budget you can't afford to
buy a wide variety of chemicals first and plan experiments later; you should let your desired experiments guide purchases. If you have to sneak around
your parents to make BP I really don't think it is a good choice of activity despite the low price.
You said you already had KNO3 on the way, though. Do your parents object to anything with fire, or just BP? There's an enormous thread here with a lot
of references to and speculation about partially reducing nitrates to nitrites with e.g. lead, carboxylic acid salts, charcoal, sugar, and other
materials. Lead is the classic material but the reduction process is slow and labor-intensive. Can you optimize fuel, ratios, and ignition conditions
for producing nitrites from nitrates in a more pyrotechnic fashion? You would be doing actual research, there are other members here who could benefit
from what you learn, and it would give good practice in experimental learning, materials purification, and analysis. You should also be able to do it
on a relatively modest budget; apart from the materials already on the way, you would need potassium permanganate and dilute sulfuric acid for
determination of nitrite. You would also need a fairly accurate balance or scale and volumetric glassware, but you said you already had some glass.
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Quote: |
I have some materials from them, but they were sourced through a school rather than by me directly. They are probably not well suited to your current
budget. I don't know if they sell directly to the public; I would be fairly surprised if they would sell to a minor unaccompanied by parents, at least
for anything remotely hazardous. There's another Portland-area member here, DetaDude, who said that Nurnberg wasn't the friendliest place even for
small businesses like his. If I were still living in the area I'd probably take a look at them, but try not to get hopes too high in advance.
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That's fine, I was just wondering. There was another place I remember called American Scientific.
| Quote: |
You said you already had KNO3 on the way, though. Do your parents object to anything with fire, or just BP? There's an enormous thread here with a
lot of references to and speculation about partially reducing nitrates to nitrites with e.g. lead, carboxylic acid salts, charcoal, sugar, and other
materials. Lead is the classic material but the reduction process is slow and labor-intensive. Can you optimize fuel, ratios, and ignition conditions
for producing nitrites from nitrates in a more pyrotechnic fashion? You would be doing actual research, there are other members here who could benefit
from what you learn, and it would give good practice in experimental learning, materials purification, and analysis. You should also be able to do it
on a relatively modest budget; apart from the materials already on the way, you would need potassium permanganate and dilute sulfuric acid for
determination of nitrite. You would also need a fairly accurate balance or scale and volumetric glassware, but you said you already had some glass.
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I've had KNO3 for a while now, I bought a few pounds of it over the last 3 months. I've got quite a bit.
I'm not sure. I actually ended up mentioning my interest in energetics today, and they did not seem very happy. They already know that I've been
mixing sugar and KNO3 to make a sort of R-Candy. At this point I've just been playing around with it, making batches, testing 1 g quantities with
various amounts of coarse Al powder which I purchased from UK and seeing qualitative differences.
I would love to do such an experiment! I have a lot of free time during a single week in spring, I could do something then. I remember that potassium
permanganate as an aquarium supply. Will this suffice, or will I have to purchase a good grade? Same with sulfuric acid. Currently, I have my eyes on
Rooto brand drain cleaner, but it's hardly pure H2SO4.... I have a scale with a resolution of 0.01 g x 150 g... It's fairly accurate, but it's one of
those cheap Chinese pocket balances.
I do have Borosil and Pyrex glassware, but alas no volumnetric flasks. At the moment I am missing some vital equipment. I have acquired 4 Florence
flasks (2 RB, 2 FB), 3 glass beakers (50 ml, 250 ml, 400 ml), an Erlenmeyer (250 ml), and various other equipment.
Thanks!
UPDATE: I looked up some of KNO2's properties and apparently it is yellowish colored.... When I burn my "R-Powder" mix, it produces a strange molten
salt that is very yellow colored.... The yellow color disappears after the salt solidifies. Previously I assumed that it's just the color of K2CO3 at
that temperature.... but could it be that KNO2 exists briefly and is reduced further into N2 gas?
[Edited on 8-2-2010 by Rich_Insane]
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Mood: Waiting for spring
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rich_Insane |
I would love to do such an experiment! I have a lot of free time during a single week in spring, I could do something then. I remember that potassium
permanganate as an aquarium supply. Will this suffice, or will I have to purchase a good grade? Same with sulfuric acid. Currently, I have my eyes on
Rooto brand drain cleaner, but it's hardly pure H2SO4.... I have a scale with a resolution of 0.01 g x 150 g... It's fairly accurate, but it's one of
those cheap Chinese pocket balances.
I do have Borosil and Pyrex glassware, but alas no volumnetric flasks. At the moment I am missing some vital equipment. I have acquired 4 Florence
flasks (2 RB, 2 FB), 3 glass beakers (50 ml, 250 ml, 400 ml), an Erlenmeyer (250 ml), and various other equipment.
Thanks!
UPDATE: I looked up some of KNO2's properties and apparently it is yellowish colored.... When I burn my "R-Powder" mix, it produces a strange molten
salt that is very yellow colored.... The yellow color disappears after the salt solidifies. Previously I assumed that it's just the color of K2CO3 at
that temperature.... but could it be that KNO2 exists briefly and is reduced further into N2 gas?
[Edited on 8-2-2010 by Rich_Insane] |
There may be some KNO2 in your leftover salts, particularly if there is an oxidizer excess and/or your materials are not intimately mixed. If there is
a lot of KNO2 in there you will see red-brown fumes come off when you add the material to an acid. If there is only a trace you would need to titrate
to discover it.
Your cheap Chinese pocket balance may be adequate. Keep some constant-weight items around (like clean coins) that you can use to test the scale
periodically to ensure its measurements aren't drifting. You may even be able to get away without volumetric glassware if you have some lightweight
containers that can go on your scale, enabling measurements to be done by mass instead of volume. Small plastic cups like are used for sauces in
take-out restaurant food should work well. You can get hundreds for just a few dollars.
You might be able to get away with using aquarium permanganate as long as you keep your samples to be titrated small. I bought pounds of KMnO4 from
Sears a few years back. It was sold for regenerating certain kinds of water filters. You should see if any Sears around you has it or can order it for
you, or try asking the same of hardware stores. I seem to recall that Sears sold small bottles that would last you for thousands of titrations as well
as the 5 pound size, which would be overkill. The idea is that you will titrate an acidic permanganate solution to the point it loses its color, using
the mixed molten salts left behind by your ignited mixtures. The permanganate oxidizes nitrite to nitrate. The acid is present to increase the
oxidizing power of the permanganate, and sufficient also needs to be present to neutralize any other bases in the mix.
As long as you have an excess of nitrite and simple carbonaceous fuels, it is probably not too bad an assumption to think that you are simply
titrating nitrite. If you introduce e.g. metals, sulfur, or formate salts as fuels, or there is insufficient excess of oxidizer, you may end up with
compounds other than nitrite that can reduce permanganate. That complicates the analysis.
For the acid I would not recommend drain cleaners. You want something fairly pure. If you cannot find fresh battery electrolyte for sale, pool and spa
places sometimes sell dilute H2SO4 for pH adjustment. If that fails, I am sure you can find NaHSO4, also for pool adjustment, and it should be acid
enough for your purposes. Another possibility is using H3PO4 instead; you may be able to find it as a combined nutrient and pH adjuster at a
hydroponics supplier.
You'll want to run a blank titration against your starting KNO3 and the acid you use. That is, you should check that your acid and/or KNO3 alone do
not reduce the permanganate solution. You will also want a standard compound, like sodium oxalate, to calibrate your acidic KMnO4 solution with, to
ensure that its oxidizing power remains constant over time. Sodium oxalate is easily prepared from oxalic acid, which you should be able to find as a
wood bleach at Ace, Home Depot, or a similar store.
It is easier to experiment to optimize nitrite production than to determine the precise quantity of nitrite in each sample, since there is less
calibration necessary. It is sufficient to know that sample A contained a proportion of nitrite twice that of B, even if you have not calibrated your
measurements to know how many milligrams of nitrite B actually contains. You can do most of the optimization work with relative quantities, then get
absolute quantities at the end (if so desired) after you've already done some optimization experiments.
Other complications to consider:
-The nodules of combustion products produced from KNO3-based mixtures are frequently deliquescent. How will you deal with or counter moisture
absorption? Would it be easier to use NaNO3, since the combustion products shouldn't be quite so hygroscopic?
-How homogeneous are the combustion products from your experiments? You could test by breaking one combustion-rock into small fragments and analyzing
them separately, or preempt the question by dissolving the whole sample and analyzing an aliquot.
-How repeatable are the results when you believe that you are following essentially the same procedure? You should repeat experiments and analyses
under the same conditions to see how much variance in experiment and analysis can be expected even when you do "the same thing." That will give you an
idea of whether a new set of conditions gave a significant change in outcome or if differences appear random.
Be sure to record the results of your experiments and the exact procedures you follow. If you follow the same procedure for each sample you don't need
to write it all down every time but you should write down exactly what you do the first time, and if you later change your procedure be sure to note
it. What you remember today you'll have forgotten in a week, especially if you try many small variations on the same theme. If you have access to a
digital camera it can supplement your written records.
You should also do some background reading on the production of nitrites from nitrates, titration, preparation of solutions, etc. There's a lot of
good material online to be read. If you can't find useful material on your own I can direct you later.
[Edited on 2-8-2010 by Polverone]
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Rich_Insane
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Ah well I would need a buret and ring stand for titration, wouldn't I? Or is this something else?
I can easily buy volumetric glassware... I doubt just 2-3 will be beyond my budget. I'll probably need it anyways. I did read that someone made KNO2
with 3KNO3 + 2Al --> Al2O3 + 3KNO2. I have approximately 200 g of coarse aluminum powder (particulate, but not the kind that's ultra-fine). I will
be sure to look around Home Depot. The Ace stores here are fairly small. However, many Home Depots in the area stock impure chemicals such as mixtures
that are nearly impossible to purify. However, there is a convenient car part store right next to the Ace hardware. I wonder if I'll get any odd looks
when I'm buying a gallon of battery acid .
Is there any acid strong enough to form NO2 from KNO2 that can be purchased from a pharmacy? I want to get to just seeing what happens qualitatively,
and convincing my parents to allow acid in the house.
If you would be kind enough to redirect me to a thread where this is discussed, I'd do some research on here and elsewhere.
Right now I'm thinking of just doing a 6 g mix of 3:2:1 of KNO3:Al:Sugar or Charcoal (or both).
Stupid question here: By "molten salts in the acidic permanganate", do you mean actually molten (in the liquid state), or dissolved(aqueous)?
I'd be happy to know just the rough percentage of nitrites in the result. Should I test a control with some regular potassium nitrite obtained from an
external source? I've heard that it's a meat preservative.
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