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moo409
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Creation of nitrates from non-nitrates
I have a question in regards to the creation of a nitrate ion without the use of any prior nitrates, much in the same way sulfuric acid can be made
with no prior sulfate ions.
2SO2+ O2 ----> 2SO3 (requires 400+ deg. c)
H2O + SO3 ----> H2SO4
OR
SO2 + H2O + NO2 ----> H2SO4 + NO
(NO is dissolved from final product)
Is a similar process possible for nitrate compounds other than the following reaction?:
4NO2(aq) + 2H2O(l) + O2(g) ----> 4HNO3(aq)
ps: happy 2004.
-MOO
[Edited on 1-1-2004 by moo409]
ALL WILL FEER ME FOR I AM MO0oO0o!!!!!
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Mumbles
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Of course it will work. Make nitric acid, and then you can make nitrates. Quite simple.
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vulture
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Mumbles, he specifically said without nitric acid.
IIRC, bubbling NO2 through KOH will form KNO2 and KNO3. But HNO3 is an intermediate species in this reaction...
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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moo409
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| Quote: | Originally posted by vulture
Mumbles, he specifically said without nitric acid.
IIRC, bubbling NO2 through KOH will form KNO2 and KNO3. But HNO3 is an intermediate species in this reaction... |
Ok thanks...I'm guessing NaOH would work just as fine also?
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Mumbles
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From looking through at his post it seemed he just wanted to make the ion. The equations, for both the sulfate and nitrate, are for the corresponding
acids. I took it to mean he wanted to make the acids then create the salts. When I said make, I was refering to his suggested method. Sorry, I
probably should have made it a bit more clear.
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moo409
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yes that is correct...im basicly just trying to make the ion...doesnt matter if its a salt or acid (salts can always be converted to acids)
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AngelEyes
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Sure, burn sulphur to get SO<sub>2</sub> and then react this with water to get hydrogen sulphate... but how are you going to get
NO<sub>2</sub> if not from a nitrate? It's not easy to burn Nitrogen.
Although you could maybe burn Ammonia, which is quite easily generated from a strong base and ammonia salt, to produce NO<sub>x</sub> and
water vapour. Not sure how you'd condense all the fumes into solution, though, and it would be probably take ages to get any useful yield.
[Edited on 6-1-2004 by AngelEyes]
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Acid Test
fruitcake
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Nitrates from Ammonia
Just the other day i was experimenting with
ammonia and iso-propyl alcohol.
I took 1 oz of ammonia and mixed it with 1 oz
of iso-propyl alcohol[CH3-CH(OH)-CH3]
.
I reacted it with NaOCl which gave a
crystally precipitate which sank in time.
I extracted this with a baster and evaporated
in an evaporation dish.
I got a good yield of crystals.About 2-5 mg.
My theory is that this is CH3COCH3+NaH(OH)+
ClNH3
This is Proponone,Sodium Hydride(Hydroxide)
and the crystal material left over is a
chloral nitrate(ClNH3)This reaction of course also
generated chlorine gas and chloric acid but
the salts did not contain a chloric or
ammonium taste to it
My general theory is that the acetone is
neutralized by the Sodium Hydride in some way
and that the ClNH3 is actually a salt of
ammonia(acids make water dissolvable salts)
.....
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unionised
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How well does sodium chloride disolve in 50 % IPA, and WTF does this have to do with the topic?
[Edited on 6-1-2004 by unionised]
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AngelEyes
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You took 1oz of ammonia (liquid, salt?) and mixed with 1oz of Isopropyl (for which you actually got the formula right) and got a 'good
yield' of 2-5 mg. Milligrams?!?!
| Quote: |
My theory is that this is CH3COCH3+NaH(OH)+
ClNH3
This is Proponone,Sodium Hydride(Hydroxide)
and the crystal material left over is a
chloral nitrate(ClNH3)This reaction of course also
generated chlorine gas and chloric acid |
Sodium Hydride? ClNH<sub>3</sub> is chloral Nitrate? I don't see a nitrate ion there... ClNH<sub>3</sub> is not a valid
formala anyway I reckon.
Also generated chloric acid? With ammonia? Hmmm......
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Saerynide
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And you tasted the what?! Why the hell would you taste ANYTHING you make? 
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overseer
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In my view, the simplest way to come by an adequate quantity of nitrates is to obtain some fertilizers. Most of them contain lots of nitrates that are
readily soluble in water and consequently are easily separated and purified. Fertilizers aren't expensive either, so I see no reason why would
anyone want to synthesize them from other compounds, except for pure fun. If this is the case, then yield should be of no concern. Here is a procedure
from a school texbook on inorganic chemistry, outlining a simple procedure to obtain some nitric acid by oxidation of ammonia.
Burning ammonia directly is not a very good option: it requires pure O2 (since it won't burn in air) and it generates only nitrogen (as
explained in the excerpt I provided). Obtaining HNO3 requires a catalyst, which is a metal oxide, and the yield depends on the catalyst used. The
optimum conditions are used in industry, where the well known platinum-rhodium catalysts act under elevated pressure, but catalytic action does take
place under normal conditions, albeit with very reduced efficiency. As outlined in the excerpt, other metal oxides can be used, such as those of iron
and chromium. I'd like to add here that a "mad scientist" ought to obtain some platinum, for it is very useful (I believe I don't
have to explain its many uses). Yes, it is expensive, but You don't need much of it, and some can be obtained in fuel cell kits and other places
(do some search on the Net).
Of course, nitrogen can be reacted directly with oxygen, but only at extremely high temperatures -- typically, the electric arc process develops over
4000 deg. Celsius. Doing this in an improvised lab is possible, but with extremely small yields. So, if this is done only for demo purposes, then a
neon-sign transformer can be used with *extreme caution* (this thing can kill You instantly) to develop a continuous arc in, say, an Erlenmeyer flask
with some water in the bottom. If the arc is made to rotate to exchange the air, and occasionally the device is turned off and the capped flask
vigorously shaken to dissolve nitrogen oxide in water, after some time the pH drops so the minute amounts of acid can be detected with a suitable
indicator. Otherwise, I believe trying to produce some quantitative yield of nitric acid in this way in an improvised lab is a complete waste of time.
Perhaps even nitrogen-fixing bacteria can produce more 
Ah, yes. Where to obtain ammonia? Inexpensive urea-based fertilizers can be heated to release lots of NH3. There should be some fertilizers on the
market that are pure urea pellets. Upon heating in a flask with a stopper, it melts and starts giving off NH3. Of course, NH3 can be pushed out
chemically, but why waste chemicals?
Attachment: NOx.pdf (527kB)
This file has been downloaded 1062 times
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moo409
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thanks
| Quote: | Originally posted by overseer
Ah, yes. Where to obtain ammonia? Inexpensive urea-based fertilizers can be heated to release lots of NH3. There should be some fertilizers on the
market that are pure urea pellets. Upon heating in a flask with a stopper, it melts and starts giving off NH3. Of course, NH3 can be pushed out
chemically, but why waste chemicals? |
I didnt know that about urea, but I have a 10 lb bag that I got for $5 so ill give that a try anyhow...that is good to know for other uses too so
thanks
[Edited on 8-1-2004 by moo409]
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Geomancer
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Acid Test: Yech! your crystals could have been several things. Acetamide springs to mind. It appears that your enthusiasm greatly outstrips your
knowledge. Your names and formulas for hypothetical products sound similar to chemical names, but don't make sense. For example, "chloral
nitrate", as written, is niether an aldehyde (-CHO) nor a nitrate (-NO2). For God's (or at least your own) sake, please don't ingest
anything you make unless you know its structure and purity. Even then, think twice.
AngelEyes: I believe the industrial route is by burning ammonia. Check the 'net for details. Not easy to do at home.
Edit: AT: You didn't report any chloroform separating out, which would happen before the acetamide did, so your crystals are probably something
else. Perhaps acetone oxime, though that, too, is quite soluble.
[Edited on 8-1-2004 by Geomancer]
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AngelEyes
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Yes, the industrial method involves ammonia, catalysts, high pressure etc. Definitely not worth it, and probably not even possible, at home. If I need
a nitrate I just go to the local DIY (hardware, for any Americans) store and get some good old J Arthur Bowers Nitrate of Soda! Dirt cheap and pure
('ish). 
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axehandle
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>Of course, nitrogen can be reacted directly
>with oxygen, but only at extremely high
>temperatures -- typically, the electric arc
>process develops over 4000 deg. Celsius.
>Doing this in an improvised lab is possible,
>but with extremely small yields. So, if this is
>done only for demo purposes, then a
>neon-sign transformer can be used with
>*extreme caution* (this thing can kill You
>instantly) to develop a continuous arc in,
>say, an Erlenmeyer flask with some water
>in the bottom. If the arc is made to rotate
>to exchange the air, and occasionally the >device is turned off and the capped flask
>vigorously shaken to dissolve nitrogen
>oxide in water, after some time the pH
>drops so the minute amounts of acid can
>be detected with a suitable indicator.
>Otherwise, I believe trying to produce
>some quantitative yield of nitric acid in this
>way in an improvised lab is a complete
>waste of time. Perhaps even
>nitrogen-fixing bacteria can produce more
Not so! I'm currently building an NST based
HNO3-generator which, according to
experimentation, actually will be quite
efficient. Think "air pumped through arc in
reactor and bubbled through a series of
flasks containing water". The erlenmeyer
shaker method you described actually
yielded HNO3 string enough to scorch my
tongue after only about 10min with the NST.
The secret lies in the power of the NST. Mine gives about 550W in the output. How big is yours? =)
My PGP key, Fingerprint 5D96 E09E 365D 1867 2DF5 C2FE 4269 9C19 E079 CD35
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Marvin
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What are you expecting axe, 25 to 30 grams an hour at 50-60% concentration output?
Magnetic limiting is something of a bonus using neons.
Look up how nasty NO2 is if you havnt allready. The arc process has been discussed to death here and on rogue, but practical results are always
useful.
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overseer
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> The secret lies in the power of the NST.
> Mine gives about 550W in the output.
> How big is yours? =)
Mine is 200 W. The yield can be increased by a rotating spark, but it's still insignificant compared to amounts obtainable from fertilizers at
the same price.
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hodges
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I have a circuit using an automobile ignition coil that is capable of producing a spark of nearly 1 inch continuously. One time I put a container
over it and left it running for about 10 minutes. I expected to container to fill with a brown gas. But I couldn't really tell if it had or
not. When I removed the container I could smell something chemical, but I don't think I saw any brown gas. If that's any indication of the
efficiency of the process, I don't think the yield is very good at all. Certainly I had a high enough voltage (20,000+ volts given the length of
the spark).
Hodges
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Turel
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Current
Hodges, you are not using enough current.
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axehandle
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Breakthrough
Well, my Birkeland-Eyde reactor is almost finished. It uses 2 8mm thick electrodes in a V shape to form a spark gap, and as a power source I use a
550W, 9000V NST.
Air is pumped into the reactor, and leaves the reactor going through 2 bubblers in series.
I only have one construction left to solve: I need an air pump capable of delivering something like 0.5 litres of air / second into the reactor,
otherwise the electrodes get so hot that they melt the melt glue that's sealing them through holes I drilled through the glass vessel. The
pressure is basically non-important, I tested it with an aquarium pump and it worked apart from the cooling problem.
Ideas, anyone?
Please don't say "aquarium pump", the largest models only give something like 200 liters/hour. Also please don't say "air
compressor", the pump needs to be quiet.
*singing* "La la la la la, only one small problem to solve, then": Hasta la vista, government regulations concerning individuals buying
nitric acid.
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Polverone
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How about a hair dryer (with the heating element unused or disconnected)? Or is that too loud?
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axehandle
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Too un-powerful. It has to be capable of pumping air through bubblers with a depth sum of 40cm.
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Polverone
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Vacuum cleaner run with the hose attached to the air output instead of intake?
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axehandle
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Polverone: That's a very constructive idea, but the noise would be too much (I don't live in a house --- my neighbours would complain
loudly, and I would be evicted --- my device is supposed to run 24/7 =)
I'm going to contact a firm that deals in air pumps for fish growing tanks. They might have something (I dare hardly think of the cost....=)
[Edited on 2004-2-6 by axehandle]
Found a monster capable of 600 litres/hour. Cost: about $30. I should be able to connect 2 or 3 of those in parallell. Still leaves the problem of
cooling the electrodes though.... although I have an idea involving an aluminum profile with a star shaped intersection, an 8mm drill, some thermal
paste and 4 80x80 computer fans.
My friends don't call me McGyver for nothing =)
[Edited on 2004-2-6 by axehandle]
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