mr423
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
deacetylation, please help?
say you have an acetylated organic compound (R-COCH3), where acetyl is the only side chain. if you add lithium metal, would it work like this?:
R-COCH3 + Li > R-H + LiOH + C2H2
also if instead of adding lithium you added lithium hydride or aluminum hydride, would it work like this?:
R-COCH3 + 2LiH = R-CH2CH3 + LiOH/LiO
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by mr423]
|
|
|
Bolt
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 26-3-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
the acetyl group is ~COOCH3. You have a methyl ketone as the formula is written.
|
|
|
mr423
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
are you sure? i mean i know wikipedia isn't that reliable but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetyl
|
|
|
Bolt
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 26-3-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
oops, sorry thought acetate... or something. I shouldn't post whilst intoxicated! 
|
|
|
mr423
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
no problem man, thanks for the quick responses
|
|
|
ammonium isocyanate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 124
Registered: 13-7-2009
Location: USA - Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: sick 
|
|
The wikipedia article is talking about the acetyl group, as in acetaldehyde (where the R is an H), acetic acid (where the R is an OH), or acetamide
(where the R is NH2). When one is referring to that specific side chain, then it is generally a methyl ketone, and so a different nomeculture is
used, and thus the term acetyl is rarely used.
However, you may be mistakenly using acetyl to describe an acetate amide or ester, which are compounds derived from acetic acid and contain the
functional group -COOCH3.
Perhaps you can clear this up for us by telling us what compound you are dealing with, or at least whether or not it truly contains the acetyl group.
As for the reaction you listed above, I'm 98% certain it wouldn't work. I just don't see any plausible intermediate that would result in the
formation of lithium hydroxide and acetylene. Additionally, the reaction would be thermodynamically unfavorable, as acetylene has very stressed
bonds.
Edit: The second reaction you just posted would work, at least with lithium aluminum hydride as the reducing agent. Sodium borohydride would also do
IIRC. Not sure about LiH. Only problem is that such strong reducing agents could damage other parts of the molecule (i.e. say bye-bye to nitro
groups, double bonds, etc.).
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by ammonium isocyanate]
|
|
|
mr423
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
well in the case of trying to deacetylate melatonin (see link below) at R-N1 to 5-methoxy tryptamine (don't worry, both legal)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melatonin
Edit: ok thanks a lot man. would aluminum hydride by itself work?
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by mr423]
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
In that case you're dealing with an amide, and generally hydrolysis is used to remove it; strong reducing agents are more likely to convert the acetyl
group to an ethyl group.
Amides can be hydrolysed by strong acids, not applicable in your example because of the sensitivity of the indole nucleus to acids, strong base, or
enzymes. The specific amid will determine which general method to use, and the particulars needed to optimise the reaction.
|
|
|
ammonium isocyanate
Hazard to Others
Posts: 124
Registered: 13-7-2009
Location: USA - Midwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: sick
|
|
The biggest problem I see with removing that acetyl group is the methoxy group on the other side of the molecule. Many deacetylation reactions might
cleave it off.
I would try hydrolysis under basic conditions, using either triethylamine or sodium hydroxide as the base. The problem is that this might result in
methanol formation from the methoxy group being replaced by a hydroxy group. However, I don't think this would happen to a great extent, as the
reverse reaction would be more favorable.
Again, the big problem with the first rxn is the lack of a suitable intermediate. Besides, IMHO lithium would wreak havoc on melatonin.
Edit: I have no experience with aluminum hydride, so I'm not sure if it would work, but I haven't seen it mentioned as a method of choice in any
scholarly journals as far as I can recall (although I just had surgery and so the hydrocodone I'm on probably isn't helping my memory any).
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by ammonium isocyanate]
|
|
|
mr423
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
ah right that methoxy group. yeah that definitely turns down the idea of using lithium.
i'm going to have to look into hydrolysis, but i guess not_important says it won't work...
interesting. i will have to think about this. thanks a lot!
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by mr423]
|
|
|
sonogashira
National Hazard
Posts: 555
Registered: 10-9-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
It is a very easy transformation using acid or base hydrolysis - Take your pick.
Best luck!
[i don't know why the files have been renamed but open as pdf manually]
Attachment: phpCNCVpY (190kB)
This file has been downloaded 1433 times
Attachment: phpXjxhJJ (42kB)
This file has been downloaded 1270 times
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by sonogashira]
|
|
|
not_important
International Hazard
Posts: 3873
Registered: 21-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
That methoxy is part of an aromatic ether, and isn't too easy to cleave. Basic or enzymatic hydrolysis shouldn't touch it.
Note that both nitrogens are attached to hydrogens that will react with alkali metals and their hydrides. That double bond in the pyrol ring is
somewhat reactive too, and may not tolerate some of the more aggressive reducing agents or associated conditions.
|
|
|
mr423
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
so how exactly does base hydrolysis work? simply putting the amine in an NaOH solution?
i'm sorry i honestly don't know anything about chemistry
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by mr423]
|
|
|
DJF90
International Hazard
Posts: 2266
Registered: 15-12-2007
Location: At the bench
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you know nothing about chemistry then why are you starting with such a complicated substrate... sounds to me like you're after a quick fix.
|
|
|
mr423
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 7-8-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
lol ok was just interested as to how it would work theoretically...
i any case, i think i got it all figured out. thanks!
[Edited on 8-8-2009 by mr423]
|
|
|
Ozone
International Hazard
Posts: 1269
Registered: 28-7-2005
Location: Good Olde USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Integrated
|
|
That is either an ether (R-CH2-O-CH3) or a ketone (R-C-O-CH3). The acetyl group comes from the ester (R-CH2-O-C-O-CH3) with acet-ic acid (HO-C-O-CH3).
Cleaving an ether is a difficult proposition and usually involves the application of a strong Lewis (e.g. BBr3) or mineral acid (HI'>'HBr'>'HCl)
and heat.
The really crummy part is that the products are usually less volatile than the starting material so that work-up is a mess.
If you are not in touch with the nomenclature, you are probably not aware of the intricacies involves with handling organolithiums (the metal itself
is easier to handle than Na). This week's C&EN news details the sad and untimely demise, by fire, of a graduate student handling tBu-Li. Take
care.
Cheers,
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by mr423  | say you have an acetylated organic compound (R-COCH3), where acetyl is the only side chain. if you add lithium metal, would it work like this?:
R-COCH3 + Li > R-H + LiOH + C2H2
also if instead of adding lithium you added lithium hydride or aluminum hydride, would it work like this?:
R-COCH3 + 2LiH = R-CH2CH3 + LiOH/LiO |
No and no. Read a book about basic organic chemistry for more details.
| Quote: | | well in the case of trying to deacetylate melatonin (see link below) at R-N1 to 5-methoxy tryptamine |
Please UTFSE before opening new threads! Asking questions that have been already answered and doing it in such a shady way as to confuse others is not
particularly welcomed here. Also, opening new threads without providing any reference should be done in the Beginnings section where I'm moving this.
|
|
|
Nicodem
|
Thread Moved
8-8-2009 at 11:55 |
meohmix
Harmless
Posts: 6
Registered: 19-12-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks to sonogashira for the two deacetylation links given above.
Having tried the sulfuric acid deacetylation given in the first link and being (very) unimpressed with my results, I am going to give the hydroxide
method given in the second link a try and was hoping members could help with me with my interpretation of the procedure:
This compound was obtained by utilizing a modification of the procedures of the Hag and Nestle companies, developed in
making 5-methoxytryptamine, which was the starting material for this procedure (17). Thus melatonin (2.2 g, 0.019 mole) dissolved in about 50 ml 1:1
aqueous ethanol was treated with 50 ml 1:1 of aqueous ethanolic KOH in excess (8–12 molar) and catalytic amounts (200 mg) of Na2S2O4. The mixture
was heated to reflux under N2 for 16 hr. The reaction mixture was cooled and extracted with CHCl3. The organic extract was, washed (H2O), dried
(Na2SO4) and evaporated to dryness on a rotary evaporator, to give a colorless syrup of 5-methoxytryptamine; this was dissolved in ether and EtOH and
treated with HCl in EtOH/ether to give the hydrochloride, 1.7 g of 1 (70%). Mp 243–245°C (dec). Recrystallization with EtOH/ether gave mp
246–248°C (dec). This compound was converted to the free base with aqueous KOH and extracted into CH2Cl2, dried (Na2SO4) and evaporated.
Please confirm that these are reasonable interpretations:
"about 50 ml 1:1 aqueous ethanol" means 25ml of ethanol in 25ml H20...Correct?
"treated with 50 ml 1:1 of aqueous ethanolic KOH in excess (8-12 molar)" means 25ml of ethanol in 25ml of an 8-12 molar KOH solution...Correct?
I appreciate that this procedure is obviously not an exacting one ("about", "excess", "(8-12)") just want to be assured I am not to tolerably confused
before I expend any more time and materials.
Your time is appreciated!
|
|
|
Sigmatropic
Hazard to Others
Posts: 307
Registered: 29-1-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Aqueous ethanolic KOH is confusing, something cannot be aqueous and ethanolic simultaneously. Similar nomenclature problems arise when potassium
ethoxide is dissolved in water or potassium hydroxide in ethanol. The hydroxide and the alkoxide are really in equilibrium.
Hydroxide does the hydrolysis, ethanol is added to keep substrate and product in solution. I would simplify the procedure to dissolve the substrate in
EtOH, add it to conc. KOH, and add more ethanol if the reaction becomes heterogenous and reflux until completion.
The real question is why sodium dithionite (Na2S2O4) is added, supposedly to prevent oxidative dimerization of the indole and why not another, more
readily available, oxygen scavenger such as sulfite or thiosulfate?
|
|
|
AvBaeyer
National Hazard
Posts: 651
Registered: 25-2-2014
Location: CA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The hydrolysis of melatonin to the amine is a difficult reaction to run. I can tell you from experience that the sodium hydroxide route described
above does work but not well. It is absolutely imperative to run this reaction under nitrogen or other inert atmosphere else you will end up with a
significant purification problem. The hydrolysis under acidic conditions is even worse, claims in papers and patents not withstanding.
There is also another route to removal of the acetyl group which uses ethylenediamine/NH4Br (not hydrazine as originally posted) which is reported to
be quite clean. I do not have the reference at hand but it is easily found with a Google scholar search. Input the data for the reference (authors,
Journal, etc.) quoted above and look under citing references. I have not tried this reaction yet but plan to do so eventually.
AvB
[Edited on 20-9-2018 by AvBaeyer]
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2787
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
This transamidation method:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/anie.2011073...
might work with a suitable cyclic secondary amine (e.g. pyrrolidine, piperidine) as the "acetyl" scavenger. These cyclic amines tended to be the most
efficacious transamidation targets, so I infer their amides are more stable. Since the indole NH is neither protonated nor deprotonated it should be
less reactive under these conditions. Apparently the reaction of hydroxylamine with amides is fastest near pH 6:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01078a042?journalCode...
According to this second paper, hydroxylaminolysis may be much faster than hydrolysis in the presence of sufficiently high concentrations of
hydroxylamine.
|
|
|
zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2283
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
|
|
There is a recent article on this hydrolysis, previously posted on SM.
Softbeard, at the end of the discussion, provided a PDF link. I can't seem to post the link here, but you can go there.
https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=79...
To demonstrate the advantages of utilizing the N-acetyl
protecting group, we sought to deprotect melatonin (3b) and
N-acetyl-2-methyltryptamine (3h). To our delight, by treating
3b,h with a combination of ammonium bromide and
ethylenediamine under microwave irradiation,20 we were able
to isolate the free 5-methoxytryptamine (7b) and 2-
methyltryptamine (7h)21 in 89% and 78% yields, respectively,
avoiding the use of strong acids or bases (Scheme 2).
[Edited on 23-9-2018 by zed]
[Edited on 23-9-2018 by zed]
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
