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Rich_Insane
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Daigger?
Sorry guys for nagging so much about this, but it's been hell obtaining proper reagents and (certain) solvents. Everything's been so damn expensive
for me and to make matters worse, my parents are picking up the signal (I'm doing my experimentation mostly in the underground, since my parents don't
*agree* with it and think it's really creepy). So I found this place called Daigger, looks real nice. They have some t-Butanol for $2 apparently, and
they look legit. What I'm worried about is that they'll charge $20 on shipping. I'm not purchasing anything overly hazardous, just some alcohols, and
possibly nucleophilic substances for some simple nucleophilic substitutions (Recommend a few?). ACE hardware has a lot of what I need (as in toluene,
xylene, acetone, naphtha, kerosene, etc.), but I'm hesitant on buying their H2SO4 which looks a little suspicious. If it gets too expensive, I will
have to go for ACE hardware. Another problem is Nitric acid, which is also important in what I'm working on. I mean, I did order 500 g of Ca(NO3)2 to
produce some HNO3, but I do not have that condenser apparatus, and I do not have enough time to spend producing that. I did see a nice thread on this
matter, some good ideas, but maybe if anything comes up, I'll purchase a bit of reagent grade HNO3. I mean, I've spent 55% of my summer already just
looking for sources and of course taking chemistry classes, but yet I haven't done anything (unless making a fail spirit burner counts). Even worse,
my parents are hesitating even to buy me a few cans of solvent and some NaOH from ACE. God damn parents.
Right now all I've got is 2 lbs of KNO3, 500 g of Calcium nitrate on its way, and a scale on its way (which has been on its way from UK for at least
3-4 weeks...... Stupid Priority Mail takes forever). So this place Daigger looks real promising, however limited they are. Unfortunately their acid
comes diluted in 1 M formulations, but I will inquire about that. If nothing happens, I'm going to have to out this whole thing off for another year.
Link for Daigger: Here
If any of you have anything to offer, I promise you I will pay without ripping you off unlike *some people*.
[Edited on 28-7-2009 by Rich_Insane]
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Arrhenius
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I don't think Daigger will sell to individuals, but you can try.
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Magpie
lab constructor
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Daigger is a well known scientific supplier. I agree with Arrhenius and will be surprised if they will sell chemicals to individiuals.
Acquiring chemicals and finding sources for same takes some time - years. Don't be so impatient - enjoy the journey.
I think it is admirable that you are taking a chemistry class in the summer. Instead of viewing your parents as the enemy work on them with a subtle
public relations campaign. Convince them that this is all part of your grand plan to become a professional chemist and, more importantly, becoming
financially independant.
They are most concerned for your (and their) safety. You have to convince them that you know what you are doing. If you can get them on your side
all kinds of resources may open up.
[Edited on 28-7-2009 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Rich_Insane
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Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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It's harder than it seems, but I'm trying. my dad freaked out when i mentioned KNO3 because it is a fertilizer (and all fertilizers are obviously
deadly contaminants *rolls eyes*). I've got to the point where I have to tell them what I'm doing, but I highly doubt they'll let me. I'm also
interested in energetics (not the kewl kind) and I want to give it a shot (the KNO3 was actually meant for that and HNO3 production). See the problem
in Oregon is that people are too wary of people who have chemicals of any sort at home. It's understandable, as we had a gigantic problem with meth
labs in the early 2000's. But now I'm a little afraid of spending my money online, because I just discovered that my dad has access to my account (I
changed the password though, but since I'm a minor, I can't have an independent account). That's why I'm trying to spend as little as possible there.
I have a good amount -- enough to buy some good stuff, but if only this hobby were a little cheaper.
 Daigger looked like a decent source. I'll contact them and see what I can do. It
looks like they sell to schools though. Maybe homeschool?
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Saerynide
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Convincing your parents is probably the hardest part. They probably do not think what you are doing is evil so much as they are worried you will get
hurt (or blow up the house haha). I think all of us who started before college had to at some point wait for their parents to go out before starting
some experiment (my parents would have freaked about thermite if they knew!!).
But once you get them to understand that it is the educational factor you are after and that you are safe in your procedures, they should understand.
Afterall, parents should want their kids to learn 
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Rich_Insane
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Learning to my dad is signing me up for bullshit classes (I enjoyed Organic Chemistry though) and giving me 50 problems on a workbook (facepalm here).
It doesn't help. And to make it worse, he's freaking out about how bad tuitions are and how I absolutely must get a full scholarship. As a result I
have to practice for the SAT (I'm not even in high school). It's painful. To make matters worse, my summer is getting eaten up even after easing some
of my classes. I have to wake up early and go to the lab for my research project -- one of my best/favorite subjects, but it's painfully slow (it's
microbiology).
My dad would ease up if he got rid of that health hazard crap, but my Mom actually thinks I'm going to manufacture drugs and explosives (Yes, I may
play safely with some HE's, but I'm not going to kill anyone). My dad works, but my mom does not, so they are almost never out. I was able to manage
burning some KNO3 for the lilac flame (to see if I was ripped off) once.
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Saerynide
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Im not sure how useful it is to practice for a test that is 4 years away... that is probably more detrimental and a waste of time. The test will
probably have changed by then... You really dont need more than 2 months to practice.
Anywho, I understand your pain. Summer is the best time to mess around... I was there too a long time ago. And where I lived, its worse than
anywhere in the states when it comes to having chemicals (trust me - i live in the states now and its so easy comparatively haha).
Don't mention energetic materials. Just don't. Parents won't understand, especially if you are not even in highschool yet. Don't take this the wrong
way, but because you are so young, they will not believe you have the maturity to handle these compounds safely, so don't try to convince them that
you do. That'll only make them freak out more and worry more about the house being blown up or you losing a limb and cause them to be even less
willing to listen.
And I don't doubt your intelligence, but someone your age is still relatively inexperienced. In both lab technique, and life. You've probably heard
this a million times from your parents, but they say it for a reason. Because they have lived much longer than you and have seen a bigger picture.
Our parents may not be as educated as we are, but still, we all have to give our parents credit that they have seen more of the world than we have.
They have seen more go wrong, and they have seen more people they love die.
Think about it. Would you yourself trust another kid in your class with a bomb? I doubt you would. Neither would your parents, nor would any other
parent of an 8th grader. So don't bring it up. They might even take away all your stuff and never let you do anything again.
Getting one's parents to trust one in handling dangerous substances is hard for anyone. Its not that parents necessarily distrust you personally, but
that they don't trust the universe to run as smoothly as you believe it will. Accidents happen and thats why they worry. Hell, your parents wouldnt
be good parents if they didnt worry about you.
As you get older, they will be more willing to let you experiment with, well, more dangerous things. It takes time, but you'll get there eventually
Just hang in there. (It wasn't until college and I became the authoritative
source of the house on all things chem and bio related that they fully trusted my judgement on knowing what I'm doing)
And then some things, you'll just have to settle for keeping from them, forever. Because they may never understand...
In the mean time, try doing some more, well, "normal" (or what they consider to be "normal") chem experiments to make them more comfortable with the
idea of you experimenting. Grow some cool (relatively safe) crystals or something to show mom Everyone like crystals.
[Edited on 7/28/2009 by Saerynide]
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MagicJigPipe
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Unless your parents are like mine were (and still are to a certain extent although more recently they have been turning a blind eye; mostly because I
don't live with them anymore). Then they may never understand and may be more afraid when you get older because you are more likely to do "more crazy
adult things".
You might also want to think of the possibility that your parents are concerned about themselves (going to jail). I still get the feeling, to this
day, that my parents were mostly concerned with either me or them "getting in trouble". They were very obedient.
But yes, even though I have way more knowledge than them about chemistry (science in general really) they still get visibly upset when I even talk
about chemistry. In fact, if it weren't for school my whole family would think I was a few cards short of a full deck because of my experimentation
and fascination with scientific (and sometimes "abnormal") things.
I obviously have issues with my parents because this is pissing me off just thinking about it. I hope you can avoid this scenario!
[Edited on 7-28-2009 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Rich_Insane
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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Well, see the problem is that everything I need -- I have worked with in the lab already (acids and solvents mainly). I work in a lab to do research,
though it isn't chemistry, it is micro, my work is very much geared towards extraction chemistry. I haven't worked with organometallic catalysts,
cyanides, or H2S, but I've worked with materials I need for extraction of melanin (acids, strong alkalines, chlorinated hydrocarbons, aromatic
compounds). It is quite painful work though. Almost repetitive. I was actually thinking of doing some menthol extraction on those mint plants that
grow like hell all over our backyard.
My parents aren't scared as much for my safety, but for the fact that I might get on a list, and it may prevent me from getting a job, college etc.
I'm supposed to take the SAT every year after this. I took it in 7th grade, and from now on I have to take it every year. It pisses me off.
I would never mention energetics, as that would be a rather bad idea. I live smack in the middle of the suburbs.
Chemicals are quite difficult to get here, because there aren't hardware stores for miles. We live on the edge of a rural area (in the suburbs), but
there aren't any decent farm stores around.
I might just study until college and do experimentation there. I mean at least I'll have the knowledge right? I dropped out of O Chem in the 2nd term
(I'd be taking it in High school anyways). It was actually pretty good, because now I have ways to make my life easier when it comes by.
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
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I've never had any problems ordering from Daigger.
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Fleaker
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Afraid of your getting put on a list? Your parents are afraid of that? Odd indeed that parents to a very smart young man can think things like that!
If they're so concerned with your earning free tuition, perhaps they ought to encourage your amateur experimentalism--after all, you never know which
professor you may get for your admissions interviews. Usually the older ones will then reminisce about their childhood chemical endeavors, and presto!
you're in on the fast track. I brought photographs of the things I tried out at home to show and he got quite some amusement out of it. Obviously
there requires some discretion on your part--you don't want to show them an example of you doing something stupid or quite obviously
dangerous/borderline taboo.
Also, don't take the SAT or ACT every year--that doesn't look terrific. If you do take it with the purpose of sending out your scores, make sure you
send the best results only once to the college of your choice. I don't know how much that matters with state schools, but with the more selective
universities, I've been told by people who do the admission that it's a turn off to see 3 SAT scores sent in per annum. 
I think you should stick with the research you're in now, and perhaps it'll develop into another project more to your liking. Do the science fair
every year, and design your own project.
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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497
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Man I was in almost the exact same situation a few years ago... Although I had it slightly better because I didn't live in the full blown suburbs.
Still I totally understand what you're going through.
I think Saerynide and MJP gave some good advice. The fact that you have any sort of lab space at all is a good start. Unfortuanately I'd say you're
going to have to stick with the bland boring stuff for now. When I was your age I *hated* hearing that, but sadly I found there was not much
alternative. To keep sane I occupied myself with reading, researching, and planning as much as I could.. Of course "book knowledge" is no replacement
for experience, but it does help a lot. I'd say it's payed off for me.
When I was young I always thought "Okay, next year I'll get into a class where I can actually do something interesting.." It never happened. Every
class I was ever in was excruciatingly bland and structured at least 95% of the time. So my point is, if you want to do something or learn something,
take initiative and *do it yourself.* Don't wait for a teacher or lesson plan..
At the time it felt like it would be an eternity until I was able to actually do the chemistry I wanted. But in retrospect, it goes by pretty damn
fast. Not that saying that will probably make you feel much better about it 
P.S. As Fleaker said, don't worry about lists.. Nobody (in the FBI or whatever) cares about some kid buying a few liters of H2SO4 at a hardware
store.. Seriously, they have bigger issues to worry about.. Now if you start ordering 55 gallon drums of stuff, or a particular few heavily
scrutinized chems, you might have some cause to worry.. Otherwise don't worry about it. Personally I doubt anyone has the resources or motivation to
track every chemical sale in the nation.. or even a small fraction of them.
I'd be more worried about some law enforcement or misguided concerned citizen happening upon your setup (usually accidentally) and misinterpreting it
as something dangerous... We have chosen a hobby that happens to look very similar to a drug/terrorist endeavor to the 99.9% of the population that is
totally ignorant about it.. so keep that in mind.
[Edited on 29-7-2009 by 497]
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Rich_Insane
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Quote: |
I've never had any problems ordering from Daigger. |
that's the best thing I've heard today
I just call my parents paranoid and leave it at that. I have to keep my Communist ideology (and my membership to the party) underground. Hopefully the
bulk of this country has lost all of the Cold War paranoia, and that my political stance does not interfere with my hobby.
Actually I am quite lucky with what little I have. I have a 250 ml beaker, 4 Florence flasks (2 round, 2 flat), an Erlenmeyer, 3 graduated cylinders,
a whole bunch of test tubes, 32 small 1 dram vials, a large useless pipette (for transferring media in a micro lab), and my baby, a small unknown size
Ahlinn condenser I bought for $20 in India. It's proven quite strong (it's Pyrex). The problem is that I have no joints, no bubble plug, and it's a
bit dirty with the narrow end chipped. I may sell it. It's gonna be hard watching that condenser leave, even though I have to use for it
The problem with textbook knowledge is that it does not stick with me. I don't find it fun, but sometimes I find myself reading a chapter after a
grueling bike ride.
Unfortunately I was not able to take the lab for the O Chem which I took at the local University (Portland State). The textbook for the lecture itself
was $200, and the lab would cost extra for the manual. I swear that lecture class was pure hell. I mean, I enjoyed drawing up my own syntheses, but
sitting for 2 and a half hours listening to a professor talk about electron distribution in allylic systems at a rate of a chapter a day, a quiz a
day, and an exam a week just did not appeal to me. i have no other choice than to take the Summer term, since in the University Academic year, I have
normal, bland, school.
The problem is that many reactions in the field of chemistry I like (O Chem or at the least Organometallics) require some very hard to obtain
reagents, however simple they are.
Actually my research was indeed quite interesting. It's just painfully slow. In fact, I've been continuing this project for nearly three years
(science fair material at the milestones). It's quite interesting. I may post up my old procedure in the technochemistry section. The problem is that
the lab smells of butyric acid whenever I come in. Thank god the can of dimethyl sulfide wasn't open at the same time. really, all I need now is
something that can supply me with the most basic reagents. i'll take care of H2SO4 and solvents, but I'm not buying HCl from ACE, that's for sure (it
looks 50 years old, there's 1 bottle left and it looks like its been opened).
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
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Rich, my advice is to pay attention to the people who have advised you to be patient.
If you've already taken college level chem, you're certainly ahead of where most of us were at your age.
As Magpie said, you really need to win over your parents. Some of the chems you mentioned are going to scare them. They would scare me if I my son
wanted them, and I have all of them myself!
Try to enlarge upon the opportunities you seem to have to work in established labs. Get a teacher to mentor you on independent projects. You can use
your initiative in other ways than buying chems that will just make your parents more suspicious of your goals. Show your parents that you can be
trusted and many avenues may open up. In time.
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497
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| Quote: | | I'm not buying HCl from ACE, that's for sure |
Actually there are quite other stores that carry HCl too, just look for Muriatic acid. It's pretty cheap too. Like $8 a gallon at Fred Meyers IIRC.
[Edited on 29-7-2009 by 497]
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JohnWW
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Quote: Originally posted by 497  | | Actually there are quite other stores that carry HCl too, just look for Muriatic acid. It's pretty cheap too. Like $8 a gallon at Fred Meyers IIRC.
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Also called "Spirits of Salt", and sold as a soldering flux. BTW, KCl is sold in farm supplies stores as "muriate of potash".
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Rich_Insane
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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I'll check Fred Meyer. It's not far, and hopefully it hasn't been chemically neutered like Walmart. Looks like ACE is my Number 1 source of solvents
and NaOH (they have quite a bit), but can I trust the purity of ACE solvents?
HCl was sold as drain cleaner in ACE as a 31% concentration. Any ideas on some Glacial Acetic Acid? I know that it is sold to make bio diesel, but I'm
trying to avoid online purchase right now. Basically all I'd really need is some chloroform, some acids (sulfuric, nitric, HCl namely), some
aromatics, and maybe 100 g of a strong oxidizer (like dichromate, a little hazardous, or some permanganate).
I might as well hold off until later. I'll start compiling procedures and PDFs in a portable hard drive that I'll have locked in some way.
My research could've been a source for chems, but really the professors I have worked under are hesitant to let me take anything home (quite
understandable. Although was able to get a few mls of KI/I solution, a few grams of TiO2 and some isopropanol to work on my project a few years ago
(involving mushroom based melanin). That means I have I2 and KI stashed in my fridge somewhere.
They really need some hardware stores nearby. I could easily take some money and bike down to the strip mall if anything was there. I think there is a
Walgreens though. Any suggestions there, any possibilities?
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Your generic neutered US drug store should have 99% isopropanol and Epsom salt (MgSO4*7H2O).
Ace has a lot of useful reagents and solvents. I don't worry too much about impurities. How pure your reagents need to be is application specific.
If you need higher purity, then purify. It's all chemistry.
Not using a credit card or the internet is going to severely limit your choice of suppliers and your ability to get chemicals.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
Posts: 371
Registered: 24-4-2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
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I can still use the internet. It's not a no-go. I do have the isopropanol and epsom salts. I might consider buying some H2O2. I have heard of the
freeze method of concentrating H2O2, so i might bring it up via that from a 16 oz bottle.
I have a Paypal. That's about it, unless cash is accepted. Do you have to have credit with Daigger or any other company similar?
I'll see when I can go to ACE again. Tell me, is Home depot chemically neutered as well? It is much closer to us than ACE.
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zed
International Hazard
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Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
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Daigger, at least in the past, was an outstanding supplier. Friendly, helpful, and economical. Anxious to please, and prompt in delivery.
I used them, and I encouraged my college to use them.....they did, and they were very happy with the results.
In those less suspicious days of long ago, when shipping was much slower than it is today, Daigger actually offered counter service. If you needed a
reagent pronto....you could simply drive over and buy it.
Naturally, they kept careful records and reported ALL purchases to the appropriate regulatory agencies, that goes without saying. But, they never
were obstructionist. They sold chemicals and lab equiptment; good stuff at good prices. And, they were easy to do business with.
They would supply you with the rope. If you chose to hang yourself with it, so be it!
If current management operates as efficiently as past management did, I recommend them.
PS. In the past, Daigger was sometimes a secondary distributer of Aldrich Chemicals. Aldrich products being inaccessible to most small accounts,
they could be ordered through Daigger. Very convenient.
PPS. At most schools, even high schools, there are ways to finagle lab space. In California, at a community college I attended, you could design
your own "independent" study classes, chemistry included. Chem 49 it was called. You need a supervisor, but you get to play in a nice environment.
Talk to you profs.
Sounds like you are under 21, but perhaps 18 or older. For most purposes, a full fledged adult.
If it is possible to set up a checking account, this should allow you to obtain a debit card for that account.
The debit card isn't a "Credit Card", but it will allow you to make online purchases, as long as you have sufficient funds in your account.
[Edited on 7-8-2009 by zed]
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Quote: |
Sounds like you are under 21, but perhaps 18 or older. For most purposes, a full fledged adult. |
Actually I'm 14.
I am fortunate to have a few suppliers to purchase chemicals from nearby, however, since I cannot drive, it is nearly impossible to purchase from
them. They are very nice over-counter sellers, but their online purchase system is atrocious.
Actually, all I am worried about is how much Daigger charges for shipping, then I would get straight to buying from them. I am now convinced that they
won't be like most companies that charge large sums for shipping.
The problem is that their equipment is sold in bulk, so it is overpriced, but I reckon that I could ask them so sell me something in one unit
quantities.
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crazyboy
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Except for scheduled or rare organic chemicals most things can be purchased fairly easily or synthesized. It sounds like your problem is your parents.
I suggest you try to talk with them and show them that you can be responsible. Once you do that assuming you have money you can easily get many
compounds.
eBay is a great source.
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chloric1
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Some of there prices are better than ebay!
Well, on the chemicals anyways. I did just win on ebay a corning 7" X 7"stirrer hot plate, a 2 in bar magnet, and a 500ml flat bottom flask with
24/40 joint for $145 INCLUDING shipping. Can't even touch a little stirrer hot plate new with that price.
Problem is, half there chemical sizes say discontinued. Would be a great way to score small bottled of ACS reagents so I can prepare some
standardized solutions. I will need to get a burret soon.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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Rich_Insane
Hazard to Others
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Location: Portland, Oregon
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I did order some stuff from Ebay, include 2 lbs of KNO3, 500 g of Ca(NO3)2, a few pieces of glassware. I did order a rather nice scale, but for some
reason it's taking 6 weeks to come here from UK, which seems rather unreasonable.
I will contact Daigger about the discontinued stuff if I need to. They probably will negotiate something.
| Quote: |
I suggest you try to talk with them and show them that you can be responsible |
It's far harder than it sounds
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wymanthescienceman
Harmless
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Not sure if it is of any help now, but I recently just placed an order with Daigger after reading about them in this thread. I had no trouble ordering
from them at all. Took less than a week from the order date for my first shipment to arrive. Most of their chemical prices are very good, although the
selection isn't the greatest.
I ordered some hazardous stuff like Ethyl Acetate and DCM, as well as a 2.5L ACS HNO3, which was one of the main reasons I purchased from there. I
haven't been able to find a good source for high grade Nitric and this place has it cheap, and best of all will ship to individuals!
Everything was extremely well packed, all bottles of solvents/acid were shipped in separate boxes which is probably the reason for the higher shipping
rates. I ordered 10 items and got 7 boxes shipped to me, seriously. The HNO3 was especially well packed, it fits neatly into its own box within a cool
2-piece styrofoam shell, and that's how I'm going to keep it stored. Well worth it if you can afford the shipping and have no other way of obtaining
certain high quality reagents. Just be sure to make use of the HAZMAT fee and get what you need in one shot.
Highly recommended.
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