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cobrasniper555
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Sulfuric acid dye
ScienceMadness,
I understand what it means to spoonfeed and individual idiot and I'm asking that if this looks like a spoonfeeding request, please delete the topic
and not my account...it's all I ask.
With that out of the way, I would like to say that I've been doing reactions and synthesizing different chemicals (not just energetic or pyrotechnic)
using concentrated battery acid (the electrolyte) as sulfuric acid in my synths. Lately, I found out that my local hardware store has started selling
sulfuric acid drain openers (I knew they were acidic when I saw the plastic wrapping over them and finally looked at the contents). When I decided to
buy some and "check" it out by pouring a small amount in a container, I noticed it had a dye to it. It was a dark, dark reddish (maybe?) dye.
My question is, would this dye interfere with future reactions and become a liability? I worry, because if I can get sulfuric acid a lot easier
through drain openers, I'm ready to switch sources. I also searched the forum and didn't find anything as well as the internet with other people using
dyed sulfuric acid.
Thank you!
Cobra
P.S - I apolegize if this is in the wrong forum.
[Edited on 6/5/2008 by cobrasniper555]
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12AX7
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- Move to reagents.
The contents vary, others here have reported golden color ranging to black foaming stuff. Dyes, buffers and who knows what else might be used. What
brand is it?
Tim
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Nick F
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I use the purple "One Shot" brand without problems. As long as the dye doesn't interfere with your reaction, which in most cases it almost certainly
won't, then recrystalisaton or distillation can be used to remove any impurities introduced by it (and these purifiction procedures should be used
anyway).
Any sort of foaming agent could be a pain in the arse though if there's any gas production in your reactions...
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gregxy
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I bought some Roto which has a yellow color probably due impurities rather than dye. Before I use it for nitrations, I add a pinch of NH4NO3 and then
heat it to boiling in an open beaker with a propane torch. (I boil off about 10% of the volume). This seems to oxidize whatever is giving it the
yellow color since I end up with clear acid. It also helps concentrate the acid by boiling off most of the remaining water.
There is no telling what is in these drain openers, for nitrating things the impurities don't seem to matter.
I would think that they would be free of toxic metals since the EPA would not want them being thrown down the drain but there could be almost anything
else.
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garage chemist
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Funny thing so many people here use drain opener as their H2SO4.
In Europe, there are no H2SO4 based drain openers. Due to this, people who want to nitrate things (or do serious chemistry) actually have to order
some chemicals instead of being able to use some OTC crap from the hardware store.
I have never bought any H2SO4 that was not crystal clear and 98%.
How about buying some of that instead of drain cleaner?
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cobrasniper555
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For the drain cleaner, it's: Marc Heavy Duty. I've been thinking about it. What if it's hydrochloric acid? Isn't it used as a drain opener as well or
does it react too much with pipes/draines/etc.?
-Cobra
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Nerro
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| Quote: | Originally posted by garage chemist
In Europe, there are no H2SO4 based drain openers. |
Yes there are.
#261501 +(11351)- [X]
the \"bishop\" came to our church today
he was a fucken impostor
never once moved diagonally
courtesy of bash
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woelen
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| Quote: | Originally posted by garage chemist
In Europe, there are no H2SO4 based drain openers. |
I think you should write "In Germany, there are no H2SO4
based drain openers.".
In NL there are H2SO4 based drain openers, I actually have 1 liter of this stuff. The bottle tells that it is 98% H2SO4.
http://www.onlinebouwmarkt.nl/winkel/view_product.php?produc...
This stuff is fairly good. It has a pale brown color, when viewed through several cm's of liquid. I use this stuff for quite a few of my experiments
and it works fine. Only for critical stuff (e.g. metal coordination chemistry experiments) I use real lab-grade H2SO4.
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cobrasniper555
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I took another look at it and it is of the same type of color. A pale brown/dark-dark red kind of color. On another note, because everyone here is a
chemist (in a way) by not only synthesizing explosives for joy and not destruction, this link might be quite enjoyable for you: http://chemistry.hsc.edu/cavebook/chsaltpeter3.html. It's an activity for creating sulfuric acid (extremely diluted but still interesting). I
understand some of you may have a vessel similiar to the lead-chamber and don't want to use this procedure but it is still a nice little activity for
the family or friends.
Enjoy and thanks!
-Cobra
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garage chemist
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Very interesting, thanks for the correction.
In Germany and France there are no OTC H2SO4-based drain openers.
I was unaware that the situation was different in NL and possibly other european countries.
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Zinc
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The link doesn't work.
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chloric1
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| Quote: | Originally posted by garage chemist
have never bought any H2SO4 that was not crystal clear and 98%.
How about buying some of that instead of drain cleaner? |
Quaility lab grade H2SO4 is not terribly expensive in the USA if you do your homework and price compare but its a matter of convenience and priority.
First off, the hazmat charges are unreal and frequently more expensive than the acid itself. One supplier I know of sells 93% technical grade for $20
per gallon but the hazmat is $35! So the only economic option is to order a case for $60. Or I can stop in ACE and pick up some Rooto for $15 or $20
with no hazmat. That is especially appealing when you only need to dry gases or generate HCl.
Fellow molecular manipulator
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not_important
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Remove the 'dot' at the end of the link. You should always place several spaces after a URL you paste into a message to avoid any text punctuation
being treated as part of the URL. Complex URLs are best put on a line by themselves.
Warming (80-120 C) several ml of the acid, and cautiously and slowly adding H2O2 drop by drop might destroy the colour, similar to adding nitrates but
without adding metal ions. Remember you'd be adding water to acid, so take precautions regarding splattering and waiting 20 or 30 seconds between
drops. If that does clean up the colour you can work out how to do it safely on a larger scale.
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cobrasniper555
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Thank you not_important, I'll try that tomorrow! About the link, I noticed the period this morning but someone already posted so I couldn't edit.
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MagicJigPipe
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| Quote: |
How about buying some of that instead of drain cleaner?
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Using that for drying and distillations would be a huge waste, IMO. The only reason I would "waste" $20-$50 on HAZMAT for H2SO4 is for sensitive
reactions. For reactions that are sensitive but don't require extremely pure acid I just use "boiled down" battery acid.
The very expensive H2SO4 (because of HAZMAT) should be reserved for the most sensitive reactions, IMO. I think using a retort would be an excellent
way to produce extremely pure H2SO4 from drain cleaner (and even purer from battery acid). Has anyone done that? I really don't want to risk my
glassware again trying to distill H2SO4 with normal jointed glass.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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cobrasniper555
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Thanks for the advice. Another quick question is how do you convert Molarity to a "percentage"? Are you using Mass-Mass or what? This is for future
notation because I've just stayed with Molarity in the past. For me to communicate with logs of data in my notebook, I would have to convert to
percentage of acids (H2SO4 for example) and what not.
Thank you,
Cobra
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not_important
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Problem is that percentage can be weight/weight (w/w), weight/volume (w/v), or volume/volume (v/v) in terms of solute vs solvent. In manufacturing
you can see all three, w/w being convenient when dealing with larger amounts especially when temperature control is an issue. On a small scale lab
setting dealing with liquid reagents, v/v is the easiest in many cases.
This looks like a quick reference on theory
http://people.clarkson.edu/~skeelsmc/solutions.pdf
Many handbooks such as Lange's or CRC, especially older editions, frequently have tables that allow you to easily convert between measurement types
for more common chemicals.
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Klute
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GarageChemist I have to deisagree with you, there are H2SO4 drain cleaners in France 
I usually use this kind for most reactions, because it's very cheap (4E a liter) and never seems to pose a problem. It's dark brown colour, but over
97% content. The cheapest lab-grade I can get is 17E a liter, so it's worth a while to get the hardware store grade!
When adding a little 30% H2O2 it clears up entirely so it must be some kind of organic dye.
\"You can battle with a demon, you can embrace a demon; what the hell can you do with a fucking spiritual computer?\"
-Alice Parr
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grndpndr
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Certain chem supply online has technical grade 93% Sulfuric Acid in 5 gallon carboys @approx $65 with ground shipping and the $25 hazmat a little less
than $100.Not great the hazmat hurts but with the cost of the drain cleaner being what it is I much prefer the 93% tech grade sulfuric acid over the
unkown quantity that is drain cleaner.With gas,I have to drive 80 miles round trip for the best drain cleaner Ive found.
(Liquid Fire) I cannot recall its exact price but I think Im losing money buying the drain cleaner IIRC some $8-$9 quart
plus gas!
On the other hand to be really economical you need to get the whole 5 gal carboy to compensate for the hazmat.take up a collection w/like minded
friends If nothing else.
Bulk tech grade sod nitrate, 25lb sacks @$35 less than $3 lb plus shipping and hazmat if it applies,again a known quantity pretty clean nitric acid,
or nitrations.
6.95 lb asa pure powdered vet supplys,diabetic sweeteners
erithrytol $24/5lbs all plus shipping. Some of the basics can still be relatively inexpensive if shopping CAREFULLY!!
[Edited on 3-4-2009 by grndpndr]
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Gamal
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I have been searching all over for this info
The only H2SO4 I can get in Sweden is brown colored teknical grade 96 %. I want to remove the impurities from it.
Are you telling me that I can just warm it and put some H2O2 in?
Isn't it anything else then organic impuritys in the teknical grade H2SO4?
Is there any other ways to get rid of other impuritys in that stuff?
Gamal
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DJF90
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I suspect in technical grade there will be varying amounts of metal ion contamination. The best way to purify it would be distillation, although you
might want to do this under reduced pressure as sulfuric acid boils at 338C at atmospheric pressure IIRC. However the metal ion contamination
shouldn't cause you any major problems unless you try using it as an analytical reagent...
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grndpndr
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Ive used old battery electyrolyte boiled down to +/- 93%
w/o issue as well as very iffy draincleaner again w/o issue in many nitrations,and nitric acid distillation.Technical grade would be a huge step up
for my purposes.
Few things I can imagine where it wouldnt be adequate OT distilling over 93% nitric acid w/o concentrating the SA
first.The 93% tech grade should take care of the majority of needs successfully.
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16MillionEyes
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I've treated my drain opener sulfuric acid with 12% H2O2 and it only turns the color from brown to yellow, plus you get dilution. The stuff, however,
has proved to be useless for a lot of things, but good for others.
Some people here seem to concerned about the color, but I think the important thing is the chemical inside that causes the color. Even if the color
dissappears, the organic or whatever it is, still remains in some unknown way (unless you get the stuff to cleanly oxidize to CO2 and H2O assuming no
other elements present) which I think is a potential screw up for organic synthesis. It is also surprising that, whatever it is that they add, is
still a mystery even for the members of this board. I myself got tired of looking up for the "secret formula" but I got no success.
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hissingnoise
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If the contamination was purely organic it should be oxidised by prolonged heating and driven off as CO2/H2O.
It's frustrating not to know what's in it, and it seems a very well-kept secret. . .
If it was metallic electrolysis might plate it out, but you'd need an inert anode like Pt or PbO2.
I don't have either, unfortunately. . .
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Sedit
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Prolong heating of H2SO4 has always caused it to form small dark clumps that take a large percent of the color with them leaving a yellowish acid. I
presume its carbonized organics and they can be filtered off later on with some effort.
Still for the crystal clear acid nothing works like oxidizer added to the mixture.
I don't think its really as much of a secret as much as they just dont really know whats in the drain opener so they don't bother to mention the fact
that it comes as waste from other industrial process so the contents can vary widely. I would think that the best way to find the contamination would
be to research where your supplier gets there H2SO4 from.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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