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tiger1
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In Search of NaBH4
Seek meager amount of NaBH4 (25g+). U2U me if available. Purchase or possible trade for ??
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MagicJigPipe
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You know what sucks? There was 25g of Sigma NaBH4 for sale on Ebay but it ended 2 days ago. I thought about it but it was like 50 bucks. If I had a
source of that stuff I'd be rich.
Good luck. Keep your eyes peeled on Ebay. Ebay and here are probably the only 2 places you will find it (aside from a chemical supplier).
Unfortunately, if you're in the US you've got a LONG road ahead of you. I believe it's used in the synthesis of a popular drug. Not 100% sure of
that though. It probably is because of it's versatility.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Are you really that worried about NaBH4? I'm sure it has some use in drug synthesis but it's a tremendously popular reagent in general. I don't see
why one would want to make a great effort to purchase it from some place other than a chemical supplier.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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MagicJigPipe
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I just read that it is being tested for use as a hydrogen source for use in fuel cell type vehicles. Hopefully it will catch on so we can all have an
easily accessible source of NaBH4!
[Edited on 4-14-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
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Location: Cornworld, Central USA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MagicJigPipe
Ebay and here are probably the only 2 places you will find it (aside from a chemical supplier). |
I note that fuelcellstore, heavily promoted on this site, drug boards, and elsewhere as a source of borohydride, no longer sells it in the same manner
that they used to.
There are two other specialized companies that I know of that sell chemicals including NaBH4 amongst their wares, both expensive. One of them
apparently requires LTL shipping on anything slightly hazmat though, and the other used to be MUCH cheaper for NaBH4. Perhaps they found that people
will pay very high prices for it.
"Drug investigators in B.C. have complained about methylamine hydrochloride and sodium borohydride remaining legal in Canada even though they are
being used in the manufacture of illicit chemical narcotics."
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=950542...
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Nicodem
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There is no popular illegal drug cooking method that strictly requires NaBH4 and has no alternative. The idea that NaBH4 should be a controlled
substance probably originated from a certain popular documentary about drug production where a DEA agent (obviously quite clueless about chemistry)
claims that whoever buys DMF and NaBH4 together is quite probably a drug cook. As every organic chemist knows, NaBH4 is one of the most ubiquitous
reagents in organic synthesis labs (just like you can find DMF in every such lab). There is absolutely nothing suspicious about it and just about
anybody can order it from any chemical reseller without any worries or end user papers to sign (at least in Europe). In other words, it is just as
useful for illegal drug manufacture as it is useful for legitimate use (kind of like water, solvents, end everything else that every chemist
needs). Believing that it is specifically used in illegal drug manufacture is plain dumb.
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mechem
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Has anyone tried ordering from China, suppliers usually require rather large minimum orders but can be persuaded to ship small samples at cost
sometimes. Thats what I have been told but never tried it and was wondering if anyone had any light on the subject.
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Nicodem
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Just think about it for a minute.
Why would someone want to go as far as searching for a contact in China for a chemical that can be ordered so simply as calling a few phone numbers of
the nearest chemical suppliers asking a simple question, if they can order you sodium borohydride with such-and-such catalogue number from producer
this-and-that? Some suppliers might tell you they don't sell to individuals. That also depends on your approach. Surely if you will be giving them
superfluous explanations and excuses on why you need that particular chemical without even asked they will think you are some suspicious person with
whom better not having anything to do (also in general, expressing bad consciousness is not a good idea ever). Or if you ask them if they can order
you sodium borohydride without giving them neither the producer's catalogue number nor even the CAS number, they might think you are lazy and clueless
and feel it is not worth for them to search for the producer for you and will kindly tell you off. But unless your approach is faulty and you try at
least several suppliers you will surely find someone willing to sell you what you are looking for (I know USA is an exception due to the legal
responsibility burdening the sellers so this might not be hold true there).
Now consider China. You would have to contact several companies (who only sell in bulk anyway) to find an opportunistic and corrupt employer willing
to privately send you some NaBH4 for a price that would most likely be even higher of what you would pay at your local chemical supplier. Furthermore,
he might fuck up the customs declaration making you the suspect target of your local repressive apparatus. A custom officer might find it suspicious
that an individual is importing a chemical from China and might decide to seize it and send to analysis to confirm if it is really NaBH4 as declared
(most likely they would charge you the analysis even after they realize it is just a legal compound). Not to mention that the Chinese employer might
not be aware of the transport and importation regulation and your shipment could be sent back due some hazmat regulation or who knows what.
So here you have two options: to either act professional and buy trough the regular and legal channels or do it the dodgy way and risk the undesired
attention of the authorities. I would only opt to buy from China in such a way when buying chemicals that are irrationally expensive locally (in such
case one can get kilograms of a chemical for the same price he would pay for 50g trough the local chemical supplier – quite worth the effort and
risks).
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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Nicodem, things aren't as easy as that in Europe.
For example in germany.
I can order many things per mail order here, thanks to some new suppliers (meaning resellers), but we have a law here that explicitly prohibits
selling toxic chemicals to individuals per mail order. If the supplier does, he commits a crime, simple as that.
Unfortunately, NaBH4 falls into this classification of "toxic".
And local resellers strictly do not sell anything to individuals, not even NaCl if you tried to order that.
If I wanted to get NaBH4 the regular way here, I would have to go to a pharmacy and have them order it from a supplier for me.
I have done this a few times for other toxic substances so it is definately possible, but it is expensive. At least I have found a pharmacy willing to
sell me things, that's the important first step.
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woelen
Super Administrator
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Garage chemist, you could try from a Dutch seller, who does ship to EU-countries (see your U2U box for more info). We don't have that kind of
regulation. I even can buy K2Cr2O7 or Na2Cr2O7 and have it sent to me by normal post, e.g. potteries suppliers sell this chemical.
How are things for people outside Germany? Could I buy chemicals like NaBH4 or NaNO2 from a German supplier who ships it to me? I know of one German
seller, who states that toxic chemicals cannot be shipped, but this message is directed specifically to German citizens only  .
This german rule about delivering T and T+ chemicals to private individuals is very odd to me. That same seller ships stuff like Cs, K, SOCl2, SO2Cl2,
99% HNO3 and many other extremely corrosive and reactive chemicals to private individuals and he does not ship methanol and NaNO2. Very odd, shipping
Cs or SOCl2 to my opinion is MUCH more risky than shipping NaNO2. I must not think of having SOCl2 in the hands of a wrong person (e.g. a kid).
[Edited on 15-4-08 by woelen]
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Nicodem
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GC, yes, I remember you once explained about those regulations in Germany. Quite unfortunate given that lots of chemicals are labeled with T and T+
signs. Is that only valid for mail orders? In my home chemistry years I ordered T labeled chemicals several times from two local chemical resellers
without problems. Once I even asked if there is any problem if I order a certain T and N labeled chemical (which happens to be carcinogenic as well)
and they said that is no problem. However, I never got chemicals delivered by mail so this might be different since I always picked them up personally
(I have no clue about the local hazmat shipment regulations anyway). Actually, I have never been told directly that I can not buy a chemical, but I
also always took care to look up the catalogue numbers by myself (after having been once told they don't like to search themselves) and act like a
responsible person (even though I'm not). But the last time I bought any chemical out of my pocket must have been two years ago and things could have
changed since. Either that or most of the members complaining they can't buy simple chemicals are simply too lazy to pick up the phone and do some
enquiry (I prefer this last reason would be true, since otherwise things got pretty sad for amateur chemistry in Europe as well).
PS: I must still be living in the illusion that things are only that bad in the USA, while Europe is still like heaven for buying chemicals.
[Edited on 15/4/2008 by Nicodem]
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woelen
Super Administrator
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Nicodem, things are not that sad in Europe. There are quite a few regulations, but I still can get MANY interesting chemicals, as you may have noticed
from the experiments I describe on my website.
But I agree with you, that you must put quite some effort in that. Actually, I think the current situation in Europe (at least as it is in NL) is
quite good. The lazy k3wl who wants instant satisfaction for his Bo0M/5m0k3 needs cannot find what he wants, but a serious home chemist who does some
research and is willing to wait and builds up contacts can find almost every chemical he wants. Cost is the limiting factor, not availability.
I can understand though, that for a starting home chemist things may seem very hard and intimidating. The time that you could go to a local drug store
and purchase a bunch of interesting chems for a good start is definitely gone.
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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Location: Germany
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This law in germany is rather new, I remember being able to get lead acetate for my chemistry set about ten years ago by mail order.
Nicodem, yes those restrictions are only true for mail orders.
No T and T+ by mail to individuals, that's the law! I would have a very hard time getting simple NaNO2 should I run out.
On the other side, corrosives and flammables are no issue at all.
I can order all the SOCl2 and diethyl ether I want, even sodium and potassium are readily available to anyone of age.
What WOULD work though would be driving to the supplier yourself and picking up the chemicals. Then I could get anything. Sadly the good stores are
far away from me.
At the moment, I do not have any problems with chemical availability though. I have all the important T and T+ chemicals, including NaBH4 in stock and
know ways to get them.
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mechem
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Individuals ordering chemicals in Europe or the US it is quite regulated. Off coarse you can always get lucky and find a sales person who puts your
order through. Garage chemist have you had any dealings with labdiscount.netfirms.com they seem quite keenly priced from there website. Nicodem the
reason I brought up China was because last year someone was selling 500GM of LiAlH4 for a buy it now price of £75 on ebay Uk. In there description
they stated that they had ordered 1kg from China but only needed 500GM. I regret not buying it at the time as I could use some now. If you can find a
reliable firm to deal with in China I think getting it through the post is quite assured.
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
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Nicodem, it also is not as easy in the US. I propose another experiment. Let's see how long it takes me to obtain some NaBH4 starting on a certain
date. I know how to talk to people and I'm not an idiot. Also, however, according to most suppliers, I have no "legitimate" use for it.
I suppose I might try... Then we might have an example of how "easy" it really is to obtain.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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woelen
Super Administrator
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MagicJigPipe, your situation and the situation in the EU really are very different. I have at least two sources, where I can simply order it, no
questions asked, and I have no affiliation with whatever registered lab or chem company.
I already have 25 grams of this, and do not need more of it. The reason why I don't order more of it is that it is quite expensive (appr. EUR 50 per
100 grams, sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on purity).
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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No, I have never dealt with labdiscount, and I do not wish to ever deal with them. This is a pyro chemicals supplier, and since amateur pyrotechnics
is completely illegal in germany, such suppliers will be busted sooner or later and each and every of the customers will get a visit from the police
with a search warrant, regardless of what they have purchased there, or how many years back.
Because exactly this has happened before with a major chemicals supplier in germany, and I had my house and lab searched as well.
Such sites clearly geared towards amateur pyros are the german equivalent to The Chemical Closet. What the meth scare is to amateur chemists in
america, the pyro/bombs scare among the authorities is in germany, just to a lesser extent.
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mechem
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Pyro chemicals are amongst the easiest to obtain in the Uk, just take a look at our ebay KNO3 is very very cheep and you will be surprised at what
else pops up from time to time. At the moment we have K-metal, benzyl chloride, to name a few.
I could probably get Nabh4 without much effort if I wanted it, but have been unable to obtain any good LiAlH4 in the Uk so far.
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garage chemist
chemical wizard
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LiAlH4 can be ordered from a supplier in germany. It costs about 80€ for 100g, and I think it can be shipped to the whole of europe.
EDIT: Is this labdiscount shop located in the UK? If yes, I would have to view them differently!
[Edited on 15-4-2008 by garage chemist]
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mechem
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Not cheap with the strength of the euro, but do you have more details or a website. Thanks
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jon
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one answer kbh4 pottassiumtetraborohydrite
it find leitimate use, "boiling making" and water treatment as a reducing agent/
the solubilities of two are different so would probably have to use agitation or a homgenoues surface catalyst.
it does'nt have to be nabrh4 just becase some book calls for it, you can make it work,just use your head!
[Edited on 16-4-2008 by jon]
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franklyn
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Stuffs available , you need to search Google by CAS , 16940-66-2
and NaNH4 as well as "Sodium Borohydride" within quotation marks.
Prices vary greatly , shop around.
http://www.chemsavers.com/CatalogSelect.asp?ChemicalName=Sod...
http://www.usbweb.com/category.asp?special=&cat=bio&...
http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/10426/SLS4615
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_index.asp?cls=2345...
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MagicJigPipe
International Hazard
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Just beware that sciencelab.com is most likely a scam. It borders on downright extortion.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=8270&a...
Also, chemsavers is sold out, sciencelab is a scam and the rest won't sell to individuals. Something tells me you won't be getting any NaBH4 from the
companies on that list.
Of course, feel free to try and post of your experience here!
[Edited on 4-16-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Jor
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eBay is the answer.
Just ask a seller via eMail.
BTW , on UK eBay they sell Di-n-Butyltin Oxide at the moment.
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mechem
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Di-n-Butyltin Oxide Not that useful
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