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Fulmen
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Quote: Originally posted by IrC  | | Science a hundred years ago did away with the concept of the aether, a mistake if you ask me. |
There is no aether, at least there is no evidence of one. The Michaelson-Morley experiment proved that quite definitively.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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IrC
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Just because you have never seen bigfoot does not prove conclusively there are no apemen wearing size 43 shoes. Being a skeptic I prefer to think I
doubt I'll ever see one. However this has no bearing on an experiment doomed to failure from using a method and equipment with insufficient coupling
to the aether to provide detectable results. This no aether exists belief based upon this experiment is an example of my comments about closed mind
approaches to science. How can one say this while proclaiming the greatness of the mind of Einstein whose own theories predict the possibility of
frame dragging, or Lense–Thirring precession. Who can admit empty space has electrical reactance, can be twisted bent and warped (gravity), while at
the same time saying "There is no aether, at least there is no evidence of one. The Michaelson-Morley experiment proved that
quite definitively."
Which implies: "I believe space is a fabric with these many properties I firmly believe in (virtual particles, Diracs sea,
quantum oscillators - Casimir effect, and so on...), but space is not really real I mean come on there is no aether."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame-dragging
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lense%E2%80%93Thirring_precess...
To embrace these aspects of space while denying the aether brings to mind those infamous words by the captain of the Exxon Valdez "I swear I didn't see Alaska floating right there in front of me".
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Fulmen
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The problem with the aether is that it didn't work. It was a proposed framework for the propagation of light, and also provided the "absolute space"
that Newtonian physics assumed. Problem is, nobody has detected it. So there we are. Perhaps there really is an "aether" of some sorts, but it won't
be the old one that was thrown out a century ago. I guess you can call Einsteins space-time a sort of "aether", but it doesn't provide the absolute
space that the aether-model assumed.
If you really want to bake you noodle, try pondering this: Speed of light (in vacuum) is constant, right. But what exactly is "speed"? Its distance
per time units. Now how do we define distance? The current standard is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of
1/299792458 of a second. See the problem? It's self-referencing. Even our definition of time is based on light. So the hole concept of speed is
flawed.
To me this sounds like we're measuring the speed of a watch hand using the same watch as a time reference. In such a case you will always end up with
the seconds-hand moving 360degrees per minute, regardless of the "actual" speed. Even if the clock has stopped the speed will be the same. Now maybe
I'm not up to speed on the current understanding of physics, but I don't think anybody has solved this problem properly yet. If they have, I'd really
like to hear a good explanation...
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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IrC
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I would consider the fact that they were schooled in the Victorian era, and also whose version of aether you mean. As to your other problem I would
take a long hard look at xyz=ict and E=hF. Your answer lies there. My view is go to the source of units which is Planck length and time. When you use
one second and one cm you are using very large numbers which does not make it easy to delve into the fundamental basis of reality. Any true
measurement of time or distance must be based upon the smallest possible increment of either since the fabric of space-time only makes sense (to me
anyway) if one considers its quantum nature. I do not think it is a paradox to consider space grainy even though recent studies of light covering
intergalactic distances implies it is not simply because of the lack of coupling. Oddly similar to the dilemma of the interferometer experiments. Not
something I can convey with words easily because we have not advanced far enough thus far. The best way I can describe it is to say the 'graininess'
would only be apparent if one were outside the space-time of conventional physical reality which constrains time and mass. I knew I would convey that
thought poorly, possibly if I were a ghost I could explain it better but then who would listen.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | | You seem to suffer from the delusion that reality must conform to common sense. I'm sorry to have to tell you it doesn't. |
I’ve just come back from a short holiday and took Susskind’s ‘Quantum Mechanics – A Theoretical Minimum’ with me for some… erm…
light reading (you know?  )
The entire book, especially the chapter on entanglement, just illustrates (for the umpteenth time, of course) that quantum mechanics (QM) is well
beyond ANY normal understanding’. And yet, for all its highly unusual math, the ‘observables’ (to use Susskind’s term of phrase) that are the
result of empirical observation match [QM theoretical] predictions flawlessly.
Common sense is something you leave at the door when entering a QM lecture.
| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen | How can you discard any of our current models if you don't know where they actually work and where they don't? What's your metric? Whether or not you
can understand it?
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Unfortunately that seems to be aga's and Zombie's quixotic mission: to criticise/discard current cosmological models without fully understanding them
(and yes, I am being kind here!)
As regards the ‘ether’? Puu-leeeeese!!! I’d compare anyone who still believes in that old and discredited notion to a Xtian who also
believes in Evolutionary Biology. It’s possible to do both but such a Xtian would have notions of ‘G-d’ that are far removed from traditional
Theistic theology and more akin to Deism.
As a concept the ‘ether’ is a bit reminiscent of ‘nascent hydrogen’: an old notion that’s been discredited, then morphed into something
different [as a concept], was discredited again, etc etc [several times] until it was finally buried. Unfortunately some believe its ghost still
lingers somewhere in a netherworld.
[Edited on 19-6-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Good to have you back Blogfast.
I think some of you misinterpret the way I say things. It's not my intention to criticize what others believe. Same for other models of the universe.
A common theme here is "we just don't understand enough to say"
Then when I say something people tend to understand enough to know that what can't or isn't known, can't be right or wrong. is suddenly way off
course..
Don't get me wrong. I don't really care to learn everything that is assumed in the models of the universe. You don't have to know all of the theories
to develop your own. Also when a version of math applied was developed specifically to answer a question that has no other answer, that math is in my
mind... suspect. Just like using the one watch to verify time.
I mean in all reality I don't really care about any of this. It's all just mental masturbation.
I do have thoughts on new forms of available energy, and much of the thought processes follow similar logic. Common sense. If it walks like a duck,
it's probably not a black hole.
I mean we have a planet surrounded by temperature swings (differential energy), sunlight/darkness, magnetism, natural radiation, and we choose to burn
coal, and oil? Where is the common sense in this?
Same for our accepted versions of the universe. Where is common sense in QM, and E=MC2.
Neither alone can prove itself as correct so we accept both as correct? No sense in this...
I don't really care. I just find it fascinating. Actually it could be compared to a court trial. One person says they saw the defendant pull the
trigger. Another person says they were miles away from the scene with the defendant at the time of the crime.One person to represent the defendant,
one to prosecute, and one to determine if protocol is followed in presenting the facts.
Problem is the defendant is a ghost! No one knows if he exists or not yet they continue the case with a passion.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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IrC
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You appear to have derived many conclusions about someone with zero data to support your position. I guess 'you read a book' qualifies your
statements. Long ago I chose to not be one of Pavlov's dogs who interrupted their endless game of poker to bark at words they have been conditioned to
respond to. What I call the aether is none other than that which mainstream science perceives to be the 'fabric of space-time'. Until science can
fully explain the foundation of space, matter, and energy I do not believe anyone is qualified to judge. One way or another. Sorry wrong number this
is not the person you are speaking to.
Richard Feynman became so exasperated [at the National Academy of Sciences] that he resigned his membership, saying that he
saw no point in belonging to an organization that spent most of its time deciding who to let in.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by IrC | You appear to have derived many conclusions about someone with zero data to support your position. I guess 'you read a book' qualifies your
statements. Long ago I chose to not be one of Pavlov's dogs who interrupted their endless game of poker to bark at words they have been conditioned to
respond to. What I call the aether is none other than that which mainstream science perceives to be the 'fabric of space-time'.
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'Many' conclusions, IrC? Can you count?
If you're referring to the 'fabric of space-time', why not simply refer to it using that term? Why use an old and discredited term?
Please don't give me your 'I'm open minded' spiel. You're no more open minded than anyone else here, see e.g. your Alex Jones style opinions on water
fluoridation.
Feynman has nothing to do with anything here. At best that's a form of whataboutery.
Yes, I've read books. So have you. Pot and kettle, already?
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aga
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Please don't lump disparate opposition entities together in this way.
We are both wrong and deluded in entirely different ways, each of which deserves separate and individual trampling rather than wholesale 'one trample
size fits all'.
Given that Reality remains inexplicable by known Science, i'll happily blunder on with my own delusion, if that's alright with you, Bwana.
Hakuna Matata.
Edit:
I will readily accept that Others have put in more thought and effort in the Quest to Understand it All, yet i will not accept that speculation by
those putting in endless Effort deserves to be accepted as Fact, probable or otherwise.
[Edited on 19-6-2015 by aga]
[Edited on 19-6-2015 by aga]
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IrC
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | 'Many' conclusions, IrC? Can you count?
If you're referring to the 'fabric of space-time', why not simply refer to it using that term? Why use an old and discredited term?
Please don't give me your 'I'm open minded' spiel. You're no more open minded than anyone else here, see e.g. your Alex Jones style opinions on water
fluoridation.
Feynman has nothing to do with anything here. At best that's a form of whataboutery. |
Since I am the one who stated science should not have done away with the concept of aether it is clear all these comments are directed at me
personally in the confine of this thread as well as to any outsider who would also hold such an opinion.
Conclusions (or opinions, presumptions, judgements etc.)
As regards the ‘ether’? Puu-leeeeese!!! Attitude?
I’d compare anyone who still believes in that old and discredited notion to a Xtian Basis?
who also believes in Evolutionary Biology Evidence?
It’s possible to do both but such a Xtian would have notions of ‘G-d’ that are far removed from traditional Theistic
theology Show proof.
and more akin to Deism Evidence?
As a concept the ‘ether’ is a bit reminiscent of ‘nascent hydrogen’ Clarify or is this simply more
hyperbole?
an old notion that’s been discredited By whom? Those who still cannot prove the mechanism of gravity, add the list
of all else unproven, unexplained with positive verification.
was discredited again, etc etc [several times] until it was finally buried By whom? Those who still cannot prove the
mechanism of gravity, add the list of all else unproven, unexplained with positive verification.
Unfortunately some believe its ghost still lingers somewhere in a netherworld. References?
Feynman has nothing to do with anything here. At best that's a form of whataboutery. The thread is about the science
of black holes, space, time, in general the physics of reality. Your saying Feynman never had an opinion about any of these subjects?
see e.g. your Alex Jones style opinions on water fluoridation. Show the link between my opinion and that of Alex
Jones
'Many' conclusions, IrC? Can you count?
Why yes I can and the above list is to me numerically high enough to use the term 'many'.
Explain why so many nations have banned Fluoridating public water supplies. Perhaps their combined brainpower is just not as brilliant as yourself?
Federal Republic of Germany (1952–1971)
Sweden (1952–1971)
Netherlands (1953–1976)
Czechoslovakia (1955–1990)
German Democratic Republic (1959–1990)
Soviet Union (1960–1990)
Finland (1959–1993)
Japan (1952–1972)
Israel (1981–2014)
"In rare cases improper implementation of water fluoridation can result in overfluoridation that causes outbreaks of acute
fluoride poisoning, with symptoms that include nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. Three such outbreaks were reported in the U.S. between 1991 and 1998,
caused by fluoride concentrations as high as 220 mg/L; in the 1992 Alaska outbreak, 262 people became ill and one person died.[18] In 2010,
approximately 60 gallons of fluoride were released into the water supply in Asheboro, North Carolina in 90 minutes—an amount that was intended to be
released in a 24-hour period"
Ask the hundreds who have been made ill or the one who died their opinion on whether or not any entity can be trusted with their safety when said
entity takes it upon themselves to force the masses to ingest water they are chemically treating against the public's will. If it is so good and so
safe provide a way to accomplish their goals with the public's willful permission. Come up with a pill or a drink they can choose to ingest or to not
ingest of their own free will. After all each individual has greater regard for their own health and safety than the state and should have the right
to choose whether or not to take the risk.
Also I must conclude you are engaging in no more than a to the man attack to bring an unrelated topic from years ago into your reply to this thread,
i.e., you are merely working at lowering my credibility in the minds of other members here by virtue of its inclusion in your reply to this specific
topic. Transparent to the point of insulting intelligence.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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aga
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Clearly the main problem with us apes advancing our understanding of things is the simple fact that we are apes, and insist on bringing ourselves to
the table in every discussion.
Fighting for supremacy and breeding rights instead of getting on with the job.
IrC and blogfast25 are clearly my superiors and will Win.
I'll go back to musing on what can actually be done with the Relevant ideas and see where that takes me.
Best of luck to you both with taking care of the Offspring gained after the battle.
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Zombie
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| Quote: Originally posted by IrC | You appear to have derived many conclusions about someone with zero data to support your position. I guess 'you read a book' qualifies your
statements. Long ago I chose to not be one of Pavlov's dogs who interrupted their endless game of poker to bark at words they have been conditioned to
respond to. What I call the aether is none other than that which mainstream science perceives to be the 'fabric of space-time'. Until science can
fully explain the foundation of space, matter, and energy I do not believe anyone is qualified to judge. One way or another. Sorry wrong number this
is not the person you are speaking to.
Richard Feynman became so exasperated [at the National Academy of Sciences] that he resigned his membership, saying that he
saw no point in belonging to an organization that spent most of its time deciding who to let in.
|
I'm not sure I understood this post.
It sounds like you think I have meant offense... Quite to the contrary. I meant to remove all offense.
You fellas that post here are hero-s in my eyes. None of you (to my knowledge) are forced to post but you do.
Trust me... I'm not educated enough to express my thoughts in a fashion that all can understand. I might be the only person that sort of understands
what I say. Even then it gets sketchy.
See, it is all the words as individuals I grasp. Not the complete thought. When one of you explains anything I grab words. That word leads to an
understanding of that one word. That understanding has multiple words, and that leads to multiple new thought processes.
Quantum to me, means everything is possible. EVERYTHING!
So take one word, and I'm off like a race horse climbing the side of a building attempting to complete the first recorded quadruple "Lutz" with
infinite back flips into a beer bottle full of Korean duck fur.
Quite to the contrary, I appreciate you all accepting that I might be a frigin' lunatic posting from my couch that in turn is orbiting some hole in a
golf course.
It's all simply education. Banter creates thought, and thought creates... I don't know what. ideas? realizations? methods?
I have my own personal hero-s in life. From people as young as 1 to people as old as the oldest... there are hero-s everywhere.
You fellas that share your time to "banter" with me are my hero-s!
No disrespect ever meant.
A picture paints a thousand words...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkEtkLdlo8Y
| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
Please don't lump disparate opposition entities together in this way.
We are both wrong and deluded in entirely different ways, each of which deserves separate and individual trampling rather than wholesale 'one trample
size fits all'.
Given that Reality remains inexplicable by known Science, i'll happily blunder on with my own delusion, if that's alright with you, Bwana.
Hakuna Matata.
Edit:
I will readily accept that Others have put in more thought and effort in the Quest to Understand it All, yet i will not accept that speculation by
those putting in endless Effort deserves to be accepted as Fact, probable or otherwise.
[Edited on 19-6-2015 by aga]
[Edited on 19-6-2015 by aga] |
Mr. Aga,
Like it or not... You just moved to the top of my "I love you list".
You said in a few sentences what I have not been able to express.
Work effort does not equal right. Ever.
The dumbest person on the planet could dig a hole with a "Q-Tip his entire life. That makes him/her the most committed person around but nothing more.
I think we are all digging with our own choice of tool.
I'd love to know that someone a thousand / ten thousand years from now could see all of this. That thought brings me peace.
I'm sorry. I'm getting overwhelmed in this. There are more comments I wish to address but it's making my head spin, and it's time to leave the house.
Quote Irc:
"was discredited again, etc etc [several times] until it was finally buried By whom? Those who still cannot prove the mechanism of gravity, add the
list of all else unproven, unexplained with positive verification."
My thoughts exactly.
Why is it easier for all of us to tear apart an idea vs. extrapolate on it, and make it work.
Lets call it Gagalifturific math. If it works it's real.
LOL... Spellcheck just crashed. Google pop up. "Would you like to add Google on line spell check to your browser?"
Frack NO!
[Edited on 6-20-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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IrC
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"I'm not sure I understood this post.It sounds like you think I have meant offense... Quite to the contrary. I meant to
remove all offense."
Sorry I was answering blog I should have clarified that to avoid any confusion.
"I'm not educated enough to express my thoughts in a fashion that all can understand. I might be the only person that sort
of understands what I say. Even then it gets sketchy"
In many ways this can be an advantage to learning. Many things are taught which later make it harder to progress since it is far harder to unlearn
than to learn. Having no preconceived notions or prejudice can allow one to think of things others highly schooled miss.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Zombie
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Thanks!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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IrC:
What you're doing in your last post addressed to me is simply ABSURD.
I was merely making illustrative analogies. You then turn LITERALIST by demanding proof. To refute your absurd 'refutations' would take far too long,
so sod that.
How you could read my post as nothing more than illustrative metaphors and not direct accusations is really beyond me. It really shows a
particular form of 'intentional reading' or very poor reading skills tout court.
You have of course not provided any proof either, for ANYTHING. I've seen that debating style of yours in action before and you can shove it where it
belongs.
Proof that the 'ether' doesn't exist any 6th grader could find on the Tinkerwebs, so please don't pretend your nose is bleeding. Or simply call the
'ether' the fabric of space-time.
I've now had my fill of this ridiculous thread with its many wild-goose-chases-down-blind-alleys, now with an added literalist bent by IrC. It was
kind of fun when it was just that but this isn't funny any more. Distorting someone argument to try and 'win' is intellectually dishonest and
hard to counter. I will however follow other 'refutations' of yours for signs of straw men and will pint them out when I encounter them
(elsewhere). I owe you than much.
Think of my response what you will. I won't be reading this thread any further, so knock yourself out. No hard feelings though. 
[Edited on 20-6-2015 by blogfast25]
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Zombie
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Well the question has been answered... That is what happens when a fella falls into a black hole.
He gets pissed!
No need to get all personal in this. It's just a thread of thoughts, and ideas. What if-s.
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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Fulmen
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This doesn't just apply to QM. Truth is that all science at one point was beyond normal understanding. Before Gallileo 'common sense' told people that
heavier objects falls faster than light ones.
'Common sense' is simply the sum of what is generally known, and generally speaking people have no concept of physics on this level. That's why we
need the "eggheads with no common sense", common sense couldn't figure it out.
| Quote: | | Unfortunately that seems to be aga's and Zombie's quixotic mission: to criticise/discard current cosmological models without fully understanding them
(and yes, I am being kind here!) |
Yes you are. No offense guys, but you're out of your league her. If you had any real clue about this you wouldn't waste your time talking about it
here, you'd be doing it in a forum dedicated to advanced physics.
[Edited on 20-6-15 by Fulmen]
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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blogfast25
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Fulmen:
Be like Jesus: 'Forgive them, Lord, for they do not know what they're cackling on about!'
+++++++++
Re. QM: ask any decent quantum physicist to find out just how fundamentally different that world is from Classical Physics. But hey, what do these
f"ckers know, eh? Confirmation biased elitist b*rstools, the lot of'em! (Siiiiiiiiiighghgh)
I need a drink.
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Zombie
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i GUESS i WAS HOPING THAT ONE OR MORE OF YOU WERE EGG HEADED ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO BREAK THIS DOWN INTO MANAGEABLE BITES.
Damn Caps. lock
I am going to keep pursuing these ideas tho. Not to get smarter or heaven forbid, learn something... Just to figure out why you all insist this is so
difficult.
Maybe it really is simple at the fundamental level, (action/ reaction) Maybe it's just the way we approach it that is complex.
Damn dirty apes!
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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Books, Zombie. Books.
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Zombie
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What are these "Books" of which you speeketh!
Some form of magic?
I'm looking back in the thread for one you recommended. It was something on atoms...
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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blogfast25
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As far as I recall I recommended 'Big Bang!' by Simon Singh. Best popsci book I've ever read. A history of cosmology. Not huge on science but that's
the good news. A real tour de force, in my humble opinion.
For black holes there's always Hawking's 'A Brief History of Time'. Also, lots of cosmology.
Neither are academic books, so very readable for the layman.
Also excellent: 'The Making of the Atom Bomb' (Richard Rhodes). History of nuclear physics and the science of the atom.
[Edited on 21-6-2015 by blogfast25]
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Fulmen
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That'll be the day..
I'm not really judging, people can do what they like as long as they aren't hurting anybody. I just think they would be better served by studying what
is known. For all us non-eggheads I think the best we can hope for is to get a rudimentary understanding of physics at this level, and even that will
take a lot of work.
If I sound overly critical it's because of the hubris in believing that reality must make sense for laypersons.
As for the secrets of the universe, they may indeed be much simpler than we believe today. It's highly unlikely, but not impossible. But such
revelations will come from people that have a full understanding of modern physics, someone that know all the observations and can see exactly where
the current models break down.
If anybody want a non-technical book on relativity I can recommend David Bodanis' "E=mc^2, E=mc2: A Biography of the World's Most Famous Equation". Ot's a novel approach to the subject where he tells the story of this
famous equation from the earliest concepts of things like energy, mass and speed of light, and the story of those that contributed to the science.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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IrC
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Zombie part of the reason some subjects seem hard is the way information is conveyed on various subjects. Eventually if you study long enough the
realization will come that the reason finding answers to so many fundamental aspects of creation is virtually impossible is quite simple. They do not
know, no one knows. In fact it has been many decades since truly fundamentally brilliant insight has appeared anywhere. How many Einsteins have shown
up since Einstein? While you ponder this and various other questions here are a few things worth reading.
http://www.mathpages.com/rr/s7-03/7-03.htm
http://www.mathpages.com/rr/rrtoc.htm
http://www.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/Class/Electrodynamics/Electrody...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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Zombie
Forum Hillbilly
Posts: 1700
Registered: 13-1-2015
Location: Florida PanHandle
Member Is Offline
Mood: I just don't know...
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It just seems to me that eventually everything is simple. It all breaks down to simple.
Fission took how long to develop? I guess from the beginnings of man really. Now any third world dictator can hire some cave dweller to build an
atomic party favor.
Like everything else we do know it only takes one fella to figure it out, and then everyone knows. I completely believe that BH's, the Universe,
galaxies, the Big Bang, ect, all fall into this scenario.
Heck, it's only been 100 and some years since the airplane. Strangely we still burn oil to fly them.
Maybe that's the link... Understanding all of the free, available energy we have all around us could lead to the answers. Bottom line is I believe the
answer is right under our noses. We just don't see it because we make it complicated.
Looking in another window here... Who would hire a guy that took 12 years to sweep out a hallway? Perhaps these physicists are just creating their own
jobs. Like joining a cult when you don't have anything else of value to offer or just don't want to work for a living.
Any of you fellas hiring? I can sit, and think all day for grant money. Not saying I'd accomplish anything... Oh yeah.
[Edited on 6-21-2015 by Zombie]
They tried to have me "put to sleep" so I came back to return the favor.
Zom.
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