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Pulverulescent
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Various past atrocities, that is. . .
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MagicJigPipe
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It's simply the only issue I care a lot about that gets brought up on this forum. The other one I care about most I can't talk about here. The rest
don't affect amatuer science.
This only became one of my issues just very recently. It's not out of my system yet.
By the way, Sauron, I'm surprised you even mentioned the Armenian genocide. You are the only other person I have seen so far that has even heard of
it. Why is it that there seems to be a lack of printed information (way less than other points in history) on the subject? It's strange. In fact, I
was never taught about it in school. Not once was it even mentioned that I remember.
[Edited on 5-11-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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The Armenians remember.
One of my uncles by marriage is the first generation of his family born in US and his father escaped from Armenia to the US after seeing the Turks
slaughter his wife and all his children. In the US he married again and sired a new family, my uncle is his oldest son. I remember the old man from my
childhood.
You don't forget that sort of thing.
I am told that a lot of Armenians not killed by the Turks were picked off by the Kurds.
[Edited on 11-5-2008 by Sauron]
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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MagicJigPipe
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It seems that everyone knows about Hitler and the holocaust but how many people know about the (almost as horrible) atrocities committed by the
Ottoman Empire during and shortly after WWI? Not many. It should not be forgotten, however, and it's significance should not be diminished and/or
overshadowed by what certain national socialists did.
Some seem to deny or refuse to believe (even the Turkish government!) that any of these atrocities occurred during WWI, especially the Armenian
"campaign" which also happens to be the worst of them all, IMO.
[Edited on 5-11-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Pulverulescent
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Prohibition first really came to my attention in '74/75 when I found marijuana to be the perfect antidote to insomnia.
But I've been fascinated by the sights, sounds and smells of detonations for as long as I can remember.
It was (almost?) a guilty secret with me for many years---but I'm out of my "chemical closet" for a good while now.
I can sympathise with gay people, though.
'Sorry for going non-topical again (last time!)!
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Pulverulescent
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Getting back to KN03, it seems meth-related material on one of their computers is the only evidence of intent LE has but even that's still fairly
flimsy evidence.
Someone may have made this point, already---it's a long thread.
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MagicJigPipe
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I sure hope possession of information related to the synthesis of drugs that can be illegal isn't enough to prove intent. If so, I'd be screwed.
I also write down my ponderings in a notebook. For example, at one point I was wondering why people were so fascinated by phenylalanine so I set out
to determine why on a piece of paper. Shit I suppose I should destroy stuff like that. Isn't it horrible when it's not safe to possess information
even when you're not doing anything technically illegal and the info is just for reference.
As I always say, it's a sad state of affairs.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Pulverulescent
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Don't give the bastards *anything* they can point to, MagicJigPipe!
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anotheronebitesthedust
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Look at Uncle Fester's Methamphetamine book. AFAIK it is sold worldwide and he has not been arrested. I also believe he doesn't participate in the
activities he writes about, thus explaining why he hasn't been arrested yet.
BTW I also believe that locking millions of people in cages for non-violent, victimless crimes and taking away their human rights for ridiculous
amounts of time is an atrocity.
(I wonder who's gonna post a comment on how drugs in fact do create many victims. As if drug addicts would be living perfect lives if drugs weren't
available. As if those people with the predisposition to be self-destructive wouldn't be ruining their lives if only drugs weren't available. As if
those people who wanted to get high wouldn't be getting high if only drugs weren't available. As if drugs wouldn't be available if only we could lock
up another 2 million people.)
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MagicJigPipe
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I totally agree with you but let's not go into this snakepit of a topic.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Sauron
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It's also totally OT for a thread about kno3.com
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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GordonBrown
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Why has the KNO3.COM thread stopped?
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hissingnoise
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That's a perfectly good question!
And what comes to mind are the words novelty, off and worn. . .
Next!
[Edited on 22-10-2009 by hissingnoise]
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entropy51
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Beating, horse, dead.
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watson.fawkes
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Head, zombie, shotgun.
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Chemologist
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Kite, Oilslick, Candybar
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devongrrl
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| Quote: |
It seems that everyone knows about Hitler and the holocaust |
<rant>Another thing that really yanks my chain is the so-called jewish holocaust.
The Jews were not the only people victimized and murdered by Hitler's regime. So were Gays, Gypsies and many other socio-ethnic groups that were
inconvenient to Adolf's perverted idea of ethnic purity.</rant>
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hissingnoise
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Quote: Originally posted by devongrrl  |
The Jews were not the only people victimized and murdered by Hitler's regime. So were Gays, Gypsies and many other socio-ethnic groups that were
inconvenient to Adolf's perverted idea of ethnic purity.
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Yes that's true but Jews were by far the majority of those who were murdered in the death camps!
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devongrrl
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I did say "vicitmized & murdered".
Yes, sickening & gross.
That anyone could be treated in this way is totally perverse & unacceptable.
[Edited on 5-12-2009 by devongrrl]
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hissingnoise
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You're quite right, Ms. Devon---even Jews deserve respect!
Let's leave it there. . .
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Vogelzang
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The label on my bottle of KNO3 is being attacked by something, maybe HCl gas leaking from a bottle of hydrochloric acid. Has anyone besides me tried
to get a bottle of KNO3 from a pharmacist? He asked me what I wanted to use it for and I said hydroponics. He didn't ask me what I was going to
grow. 
[Edited on 6-12-2009 by Vogelzang]
[Edited on 6-12-2009 by Vogelzang]
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IrC
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| Quote: Originally posted by MagicJigPipe |
By the way, Sauron, I'm surprised you even mentioned the Armenian genocide. You are the only other person I have seen so far that has even heard of
it. Why is it that there seems to be a lack of printed information (way less than other points in history) on the subject? It's strange. In fact, I
was never taught about it in school. Not once was it even mentioned that I remember.
-------------------
On that:
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Armenian_Genocide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
On topic: two quotes:
Pulverulescent
"Getting back to KN03, it seems meth-related material on one of their computers is the only evidence of intent LE has but even that's still fairly
flimsy evidence."
----
Assume RP is legal where they are, i.e. the location of their computer containing this data. In England I believe RP is legal to possess IIRC. The
crime they are charged with is in Arizona. Therefore the only evidence against them would also have to be in the US. I do not see where Arizona would
have the authority to obtain or use evidence on their computer in England where they have committed no crime. Just because they had an interest in how
things are made on their computer there in England does not prove they conspired to help a customer they do not know in the US make something illegal
here. For all anyone knows the customer may have wanted to experiment with making phosphides of semiconducter related elements such as germanium*.
It would seem this point would be blatantly obvious to even an idiot for a lawyer defending them here. If I am wrong about this it is very ominous for
anyone having an interest in real science whether hobby or professional. Especially disconcerting is the thought that US authorities would have the
right to obtain and use such evidence from one country in another. If so this is a failing on the part of English law. Possibly a minor point but it
relates to the next quote.
*I mention this since I have desired to experiment with phosphorus to make exotic phosphides over the years wanting to invent better laser materials
but have never done so due to the laws here relating to phosphorus in whatever form. In effect so many laws like this over the years have resulted in
many ideas not being pursued by myself. Sure if I were LE I would most likely assume their intent and this thought has long kept me from buying unique
hard to find items from companies whos list appeared to be too drug related including from the KNO3 under discussion in this thread.
I have tried to be "street-wise", not wanting to end up on a list somewhere under suspicion for doing anything they would imply and try to charge me
with even though I have never made drugs nor would I ever. This however seems to be of no use as a defense for people with legitimate interest in the
hobby of chemistry. I have no doubt I could look in the house of every person in law enforcement and find two or more items which they have used to
convict people for making drugs when they found similar things in someone else's home. Possibly they are often correct in their assumptions but this
does not prove every soul playing with chemistry has criminal intent.
I have no doubt however in this day and age they would still rather jail the entire human race than allow the chance to exist that they might be a
criminal no matter what the real reason someone had for possessing anything they have seen used somewhere else for a crime. This seems to be the
current mindset we have to live with if we are to pursue science outside of some government approved lab.
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MagicJigPipe
"I sure hope possession of information related to the synthesis of drugs that can be illegal isn't enough to prove intent. If so, I'd be screwed."
-------
Everything I have looked at on this subject indicates they do use this. If you have the recipe and even one precursor they can and do use this to
convict many times every day in America. If it were up to me I would take all the meth cooks to a deserted island and nuke it. Just how I feel about
it. However like most with a chemistry interest I have copied information from drugs to explosives over the years for the sole purpose of knowing all
things related to chemistry and many other sciences. However if I have chemicals for many reasons for which my intent was legitimate I do not also
keep these old archives in the same location. Reading the posts I quoted now I wonder if this does me any good. If I left an old Mr Natural comic from
the late 60's in England and they find NaOH in my lab here do I now have to fear this will be used to convict me when I have never commited a crime?
Has it gone this badly for amateur chemistry in America?
FYI: "Mr Natural comic" a really funny comic book sold in head shops around 40 years ago which usually had recipes for making hash and other various
and sundry items here and there in the issues which were printed.
Somehow I ended up stuck inside my first quote but what the hell too brain taxing to figure out how to get out.
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S.C. Wack
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Pardon me for interrupting the yapping, but
That would be because there was nothing to report. Until today:
http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Suicide-threat-mother-lose...
Published Date: 10 December 2009
By Brian Horne
A SCOTSWOMAN, who has claimed she will kill herself rather than face trial in the United States, has failed to persuade judges to halt her
extradition.
Kerry Howes, 31, and her husband Brian Howes, 46, of Bo'ness, West Lothian, are wanted in Arizona to face allegations they sold chemicals used in
crystal meth over the internet to drug dealers.
Howes fears that, if convicted, she faces "decades of incarceration" in the US and will never see her five children again, psychiatrist Dr Pradeep
Pasupuleti told the Court of Criminal Appeal in Edinburgh.
Howes spent seven months in Cornton Vale prison during an earlier stage of the extradition process, when she wrote letters saying that she would
commit suicide, the court heard.
But the judges also heard assurances that if sent back to face charges, Howes would be on suicide watch and would be well taken care of. Further, if
convicted, she might be able to serve any sentence handed out in Scotland.
Lord Reed, sitting with Lord Mackay Lord Osborne ruled, yesterday that extradition would not be "unjust or oppressive".
They noted there was no history of self-harm or suicide attempts and that Howes' mental health problems "are not considered to be of the most serious
character".
An Edinburgh sheriff previously ruled that the Howes be extradited, but they had asked the court of Criminal Appeal to overturn the ruling.
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S.C. Wack
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These people came up today in a different thread; bit of a late update. BTW it appears that records of what went where were retained and given to US
LE. They were extradited, sentenced, and seem to have fallen in a black hole since then. Mr. Howes was a bit naughty in other ways and this did not
help his case in the UK courts.
Friday 26 April 2013 linlithgowgazette.co.uk
Kerry Ann Shanks appeared at Phoenix District Court last Tuesday and
admitted one count of supplying 100g of red phosporous to what turned out to
be an undercover Drug Enforcement Administration agent.
While legal to sell in the UK, the chemical is classified in America as an illegal import, as it can be used in the manufacture of the drug crystal
meth.
Kerry Ann (35) was flown to America on April 12, after the US District Attorney agreed to accept a much reduced plea providing she consented to
extradition.
A further 81 related charges against her were dropped and her release from prison was immediate, due to seven months spent in Cornton Vale on remand
in 2007.
She had potentially faced a trial and up to 20 years in prison, a $250,000 fine, or both.
This week lawyer Graeme Brown told the Journal and Gazette his relieved client was awaiting deportation, in the ‘Arizona equivalent of Dungavel’
(Immigration Removal Centre).
He thought it was very lonely and few people spoke English but Mr Brown said: “It’s a short term loss for what will be an enormous weight lifted
off her shoulders when she is back.”
As far as he was concerned, she should have been home by now and had been a ‘little let down’, but he had been quoted a ‘couple of weeks’.
He will ask the Scottish Goverment to step in if her American stay looks like being any longer.
Kerry Ann, and now estranged husband Brian Howes (49), had fought a lengthy, high-profile UK legal battle against extradition to America, where they
were accused of unlawfully importing chemicals for the production of crystal meth.
They had maintained it was part of a legimate fireworks business but in February Howes, extradited to Arizona last July, admitted 10 charges with the
remaining 72 dropped.
In a plea agreement he confessed to knowing, or having reasonable cause to know, that some American customers buying chemicals from his companies
online were misusing them for illegal purposes. Sentencing is on May 15.
Under the plea agreement, it will be recommended the court imposes a prison sentence at the lower-end of the scale and should Howes request to serve
any sentence in the UK, this would be
unopposed.
Mr Brown said this week: “Kerry Ann has always maintained that her involvement in this was very, very minimal if anything at all.
“It became the case the District Attorney was prepared to accept a much reduced plea provided that she consented to extradition.”
The family’s Bo’ness home was repossessed last year. Kerry Ann, who currently has five children in foster care, still had a ‘very strong
appeal’ pending to the European Court of Human Rights, he said.
She had voluntarily waived an ECHR rule blocking her extradition, in order to travel to the USA.
Mr Brown said there were ‘huge lessons to be learnt’ from what had unfolded in his client’s case once lines of communication were established
with American prosecutors after Howes’ extradition.
“The judge in the case raised the issue of why this couldn’t be done by video link,” he said.
-----------------------
PHOENIX - On May 14, 2013, Brian Howes, 49, of Bo’Ness, Falkirk, Scotland, United Kingdom, was sentenced by U.S. District Judge Reade to 70 months
incarceration, three years supervised release, and a $1,000 special assessment. Howes pleaded guilty on Feb. 4, 2013, to ten separate counts of
distributing a listed (Red Phosphorus) while knowing and having reasonable cause to believe that it would be used to manufacture a controlled
(methamphetamine).
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