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JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
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Oh and I do of course keep a lab notebook.
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j_sum1
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Quote: Originally posted by arkoma  | Bravo j_sum. My LOGBOOK has saved me twice when the coppers show up "looking for the meth lab". Nevada and California. I *sigh* expect them here in
Arkansas.
*edit* Folks, a BOUND notebook written in INK is important two-fold.
1) As drunk as you are, if you scrawl it all down you can repeat it, even if it is a S.N.A.F.U.
2) The Police Clan Lab team told me, "You guys that keep notes ain't the ones we have to worry about."
[Edited on 1-3-2016 by arkoma] |
I also pasted in the detective's business card.
Now, that's my kind of scrapbooking!
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Texium
Administrator
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Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
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I have a lab notebook, but so often I forget to write stuff down, so then I sit down for an hour trying to recollect all of the things I've done in
the lab over the past month and fill out three to four pages of solid writing. Really it's more like a journal than am official lab notebook, as I
write in paragraphs and tend to meander into unrelated topics, but I think it would still be helpful to have in the event of a police raid, and it
will be fun to look back on in the future.
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JJay
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I can't say for sure, but I think law enforcement may have brought out a canine team a few days ago. I saw a husky with a short looped leash in the
style that they use on police dogs wandering around on the public right of way next to my lab. It looked just like a TSA dog, and it approached me but
didn't sniff me for more than a brief instant like TSA dog. The owner, who had apparently just let him out of his car, about 20 feet away, called him
back but didn't look at me or acknowledge me in any way before driving off. Who knows... maybe he was just rudely letting his dog use the facilities,
but it's a strange place for that. I've been doing some experiments with some pretty complex apparatus and OTC chemicals (including lithium
batteries), and a lot of people have seen them, and I can see how that could attract some attention. Obviously, I don't have anything illegal, so it
wasn't too concerning.
Oh and the reason I mention this: Someone who identified himself as a government security contractor did stop by today and asked for a tour (my lab is
in a hackerspace, so that's ok). He didn't seem to be very interested in membership and had a lot of unusual questions about explosives. I got his
business card in case I want to teach any classes.
[Edited on 3-4-2016 by JJay]
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aga
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I had to google what a 'hackerspace' is.
So your lab is in a shared space where Other People come and go (through your lab) as they please ?
If so, Weird concept.
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WGTR
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I wouldn't be too concerned about "government security contractors". He's most likely a civilian working on a project that involves energetics, and
was interested in what you're doing. That is, unless he had a federal ID.
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Darkstar
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | I had to google what a 'hackerspace' is.
So your lab is in a shared space where Other People come and go (through your lab) as they please ?
If so, Weird concept. |
The presence of cigarette butts and empty beer cans are a strong indicator that aga has used your hackerspace recently.
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Loptr
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Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
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| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | I can't say for sure, but I think law enforcement may have brought out a canine team a few days ago. I saw a husky with a short looped leash in the
style that they use on police dogs wandering around on the public right of way next to my lab. It looked just like a TSA dog, and it approached me but
didn't sniff me for more than a brief instant like TSA dog. The owner, who had apparently just let him out of his car, about 20 feet away, called him
back but didn't look at me or acknowledge me in any way before driving off. Who knows... maybe he was just rudely letting his dog use the facilities,
but it's a strange place for that. I've been doing some experiments with some pretty complex apparatus and OTC chemicals (including lithium
batteries), and a lot of people have seen them, and I can see how that could attract some attention. Obviously, I don't have anything illegal, so it
wasn't too concerning.
Oh and the reason I mention this: Someone who identified himself as a government security contractor did stop by today and asked for a tour (my lab is
in a hackerspace, so that's ok). He didn't seem to be very interested in membership and had a lot of unusual questions about explosives. I got his
business card in case I want to teach any classes.
[Edited on 3-4-2016 by JJay] |
Being a "government contractor", and working for the company that currently has the contract to run the TSA's scanning program, including the X-ray,
sample analyzers for drugs and explosives, body scanners, and full body scanners, I would have to say anyone identifying themselves as a "government
security contractor" is likely nobody that either was interested in what you where doing, afraid of what they saw you doing and wanted to see your
reaction to their attempt to scare you, or was simply just wanted to sound more official with regards to their questions.
The authorities are not going to try to scare you, or even bring the government or security into the discussion when making contact. They will try and
be average joe shmoe that is just like you, and have something in common. They want to get evidence that can be taken to court to possibly stop you
from being able to continue your hobby. Hence, the "connection" and "similarity" approaches, as you are more likely to dish out the real goods during
contact.
It's possible that they did work for a contracting company, and perhaps, took interest in the fact you were doing what you are doing.
[Edited on 4-4-2016 by Loptr]
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JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga | I had to google what a 'hackerspace' is.
So your lab is in a shared space where Other People come and go (through your lab) as they please ?
If so, Weird concept. |
I have a locked cabinet for storing chemicals and 3-neck flasks. But yeah, pretty much.
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JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
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| Quote: Originally posted by Loptr |
Being a "government contractor", and working for the company that currently has the contract to run the TSA's scanning program, including the X-ray,
sample analyzers for drugs and explosives, body scanners, and full body scanners, I would have to say anyone identifying themselves as a "government
security contractor" is likely nobody that either was interested in what you where doing, afraid of what they saw you doing and wanted to see your
reaction to their attempt to scare you, or was simply just wanted to sound more official with regards to their questions.
The authorities are not going to try to scare you, or even bring the government or security into the discussion when making contact. They will try and
be average joe shmoe that is just like you, and have something in common. They want to get evidence that can be taken to court to possibly stop you
from being able to continue your hobby. Hence, the "connection" and "similarity" approaches, as you are more likely to dish out the real goods during
contact.
It's possible that they did work for a contracting company, and perhaps, took interest in the fact you were doing what you are doing.
[Edited on 4-4-2016 by Loptr] |
He didn't give me the business card for his contracting company or say exactly what he did for them other than teach classes occasionally... he gave
me one for his small business, and I didn't ask a lot of questions since I don't hire government contractors.
I agree that the government probably wouldn't send in a security contractor identifying himself as such to snoop around or intimidate. I am pretty
darn sure that dog was a law enforcement dog of some variety though.
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macckone
Dispenser of practical lab wisdom
Posts: 2168
Registered: 1-3-2013
Location: Over a mile high
Member Is Offline
Mood: Electrical
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In my experience, law enforcement visits fall into three categories.
1) hostile and involve shouting and guns drawn but can become friendly
if you aren't hostile and there is nothing there for them to arrest you over.
2) friendly where they always give you a business card that includes
their agency and often their supervisors phone number. Note that
friendly can include some level of intimidation because that is how
they 'achieve compliance'.
3) covert where they pretend not to have anything to do with law enforcement.
The first two are much less scary (at least to me) than the third as you
know what your rights are.
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Chiron
Harmless
Posts: 22
Registered: 25-3-2016
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Mood: No Mood
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I understand the ice problem in Australia but even so, due process is due process. What's wrong with the state of civil rights when a warrant can be
obtained without due cause or evidence? In the U.S. we have Constitutional due process against unreasonable search and seizure, but even so we now
have police kicking people's doors in for anything at all. My friend got his car searched at a road block because a cop got a phone warrant from a
judge, and they were doing it to many cars in line. No due process at all. Just blank warrants with a judge's signature already on it, and they fill
in the blank.
Searching someone's home because a chem set came through customs is because of how hobby chemistry is perceived, not just the ice problem. When you
tell someone you enjoy doing chemistry at home the first thing they joke about is if you're making explosives or drugs.
Also LEOs have quotas to fill and I guess searching the homes of teenagers who enjoy doing chemistry is a way to keep getting funding.
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chemrox
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Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
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You are not required to explain glassware purchases. If you feel compelled to speak (ill advised) say you're selling on ebay. I got totally zonked on
solvents decanting them during a rain storm and had a visit. Since I was feeling guilty and stupid I answered as above. What kind of chemistry was I
doing? Environmental of course. However, I do have a pharmacy license and that allowed me to reply whereas had I been sober my standard reply would
have been, "I prefer not to answer questions." No search warrant .. no cause.. and why would someone who actually does chemistry make meth? It's a
stupid synthesis (15 methods I know of) and utterly no challenge. The unfortunates that use the shit are dying from it. The only conceivable excuse
would be to provide a less lethal higher quality product as a service to the freaks.
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1761
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
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| Quote: Originally posted by Darkstar |
The presence of cigarette butts and empty beer cans are a strong indicator that aga has used your hackerspace recently.
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ROFL
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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macckone
Dispenser of practical lab wisdom
Posts: 2168
Registered: 1-3-2013
Location: Over a mile high
Member Is Offline
Mood: Electrical
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This is only true in some jurisdictions.
In texas, not having answered this question on a form before ordering said glassware is a felony.
In Australia my understanding is you are required to answer questions regarding certain items but not others and it varies by jurisdiction.
other countries you have to fill out forms to purchase items like 12% hydrogen peroxide and just a record of someone with the same name importing it
is probable cause with no warrant under terrorism statutes.
In california certain chemicals are considered an immediate danger automatically eliminating a need to get a warrant for public safety.
In drug searches in the USA a suspicious odor is sufficient for an immediate search without a warrant as drugs can be easily discarded, but the
evidence may get thrown out by a judge.
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Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
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A warrant is alway required, so one will be in hand when your door comes off its hinges. There are exceptions like public view through a window or the
belief and justification that it was an existencial circumstance where a life was on the line, but they will lose the ability to take anything they
find that is against the law into court with them to prosecute you. So yo better believe they will have a warrant, as too many cases have been screwed
up because of that very reason. Not to mention the district attorney would have a chat with the chief of police, and next thing you know, you're gone,
indefinite desk duty, or following the horses around because you chose not to get a warrant.
(I am taking this police academy thing with my city because I have no life and my wife originally made me, but its actually turned out to be pretty
cool. Oh, I could so turn that place on its head, and have so many ideas how they could be more effective and efficient with regards to techniques and
technologies, etc., but I am not so sure I want to do that, especially when talking about the technologies I have produced. No one wants a big brother
local police department.... but I would be awesome lol)
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chemrox
International Hazard
Posts: 2961
Registered: 18-1-2007
Location: UTM
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Mood: LaGrangian
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I should have mentioned I was talking about the US not TX or CA. Australia is not really a free country if there is such a thing anymore. The Brits
watch everything you do. Like old puritan communities in parts of the US. Pacific Grove, CA once had a law requiring one's house shades and curtains
to be partially open. GB has cameras everywhere and cops to monitor them all day and night. I won't be going there. Even Germany during the Reich
wasn't that intrusive... well maybe not. In my state odor is not sufficient ground to search but they will if there are other suspicious indicators.
There are occasional incidents with people making or storing pyrotechnics. When one of these blows the schoolmarms get busy. Meth labs are pretty
obvious. The people are flaky (not like in the '60's) and identify themselves as freaks any number of ways. It' a good idea to check local and state
regs and try to comply. Since the whole ugly "precursor" thing got started there are avenues to getting legal with them in most places (not including
CA and TX). In my state one can obtain a precursor license to cover Meam, I2, ether, acetone, NaOH (can you believe this shit?), etc. In other words
if it's a chemical by any schoolmarm definition it's a precursor). My license doesn't cover lysergic acid or ergotamine. It does cover
3,4,5-trimethoxy benzaldehyde and other actual precursors. In other words if it's on a DEA list of no allowable quantities the license doesn't help.
I'm still puzzled why state cops would know about a customs matter. However just because someone sends you something doesn't mean you ordered it or
have to accept it. Deny everything and refuse to open packages if requested to do so. Always say you should ask your attorney before doing anything.
At least if they push it and arrest you, you've asserted your rights and will get out of it if you stick to your guns and refuse to help make the case
against you. People get in trouble when they feel guilty and try to explain. Nearly all criminal convictions are the result of people "cooperating."
One more thing: in my state giving false information to the cops is a crime. But you're never required to talk to the cops. For example saying, "I
don't know why that was sent to me and I want to talk with an attorney.." would be legal and advisable. Something shows up at your address with cops
in tow doesn't mean you ordered it. How would you know? You might have ordered it and you might think it's something you ordered but without opening
it and reviewing the packing slip you really don't know. The packing slip is not enough. Consider there are pill addicts that order drugs online all
the time. Some of these get confiscated but usually there's no effort to prosecute the would be recipient because he hasn't received it. Succesful
prosecutions require cooperation in these cases. Don't *ever* cooperate. There was a bee on the old alt.chem.drugs listserve that talked his ass off
and went to prison for 10 years. His story is on lyceaum or erowid somewhere. He called himself, Eleusius. His story is a model of what not to do. He
was guilty as hell but he could have gotten out of it. Find the story and read it. As far as TX is concerned I'd get whatever glassware permissions
are required and be damned sure I wasn't doing anything that wouldn't pass an impromptu inspection. This is not a drug forum and making drugs is
illegal anywhere. So whatever you make be sure it isn't on a list. Explosives or the material to make them are asking for trouble unless you get pyro
license.
[Edited on 7-4-2016 by chemrox]
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1761
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
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Ah, the daze. Eleusis, Zwitterion, *sigh*. Volunteer State?
*edit* OFF TOPIC I had a daggum Amstrad PC with TWO, count 'em, TWO 5 and quarter floppy drives and 512k memory with a 8088 intel but my prize
possesion back then was my acoustically coupled modem. My first "hard card" was 10 megabytes and I wondered how the fuck I'd ever fill it up.
ON TOPIC:
Read about Strike if ya want to know what NOT to do. Don't give interviews to Dateline at your chem company with a damn monitor in the background
with a BEE on it fer chrissake!
[Edited on 4-7-2016 by arkoma]
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
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You had a co-processor too ?!?
Jammy git.
Edit:
I'd only have had one for the nerd-cred, not cos i would appreciate it for any maths tasks.
[Edited on 7-4-2016 by aga]
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Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
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Man, you two need to clean the cobwebs out of your ears. 
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Loptr
International Hazard
Posts: 1348
Registered: 20-5-2014
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
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| Quote: Originally posted by chemrox | I should have mentioned I was talking about the US not TX or CA. Australia is not really a free country if there is such a thing anymore. The Brits
watch everything you do. Like old puritan communities in parts of the US. Pacific Grove, CA once had a law requiring one's house shades and curtains
to be partially open. GB has cameras everywhere and cops to monitor them all day and night. I won't be going there. Even Germany during the Reich
wasn't that intrusive... well maybe not. In my state odor is not sufficient ground to search but they will if there are other suspicious indicators.
There are occasional incidents with people making or storing pyrotechnics. When one of these blows the schoolmarms get busy. Meth labs are pretty
obvious. The people are flaky (not like in the '60's) and identify themselves as freaks any number of ways. It' a good idea to check local and state
regs and try to comply. Since the whole ugly "precursor" thing got started there are avenues to getting legal with them in most places (not including
CA and TX). In my state one can obtain a precursor license to cover Meam, I2, ether, acetone, NaOH (can you believe this shit?), etc. In other words
if it's a chemical by any schoolmarm definition it's a precursor). My license doesn't cover lysergic acid or ergotamine. It does cover
3,4,5-trimethoxy benzaldehyde and other actual precursors. In other words if it's on a DEA list of no allowable quantities the license doesn't help.
I'm still puzzled why state cops would know about a customs matter. However just because someone sends you something doesn't mean you ordered it or
have to accept it. Deny everything and refuse to open packages if requested to do so. Always say you should ask your attorney before doing anything.
At least if they push it and arrest you, you've asserted your rights and will get out of it if you stick to your guns and refuse to help make the case
against you. People get in trouble when they feel guilty and try to explain. Nearly all criminal convictions are the result of people "cooperating."
One more thing: in my state giving false information to the cops is a crime. But you're never required to talk to the cops. For example saying, "I
don't know why that was sent to me and I want to talk with an attorney.." would be legal and advisable. Something shows up at your address with cops
in tow doesn't mean you ordered it. How would you know? You might have ordered it and you might think it's something you ordered but without opening
it and reviewing the packing slip you really don't know. The packing slip is not enough. Consider there are pill addicts that order drugs online all
the time. Some of these get confiscated but usually there's no effort to prosecute the would be recipient because he hasn't received it. Succesful
prosecutions require cooperation in these cases. Don't *ever* cooperate. There was a bee on the old alt.chem.drugs listserve that talked his ass off
and went to prison for 10 years. His story is on lyceaum or erowid somewhere. He called himself, Eleusius. His story is a model of what not to do. He
was guilty as hell but he could have gotten out of it. Find the story and read it. As far as TX is concerned I'd get whatever glassware permissions
are required and be damned sure I wasn't doing anything that wouldn't pass an impromptu inspection. This is not a drug forum and making drugs is
illegal anywhere. So whatever you make be sure it isn't on a list. Explosives or the material to make them are asking for trouble unless you get pyro
license.
[Edited on 7-4-2016 by chemrox] |
Yes, absolutely, never respond to a direction from someone delivering a package with following said action.
The problem with chemicals and other things of that nature is they will be more likely to pursue you considering you might be manufacturing, while a
pill addict is a dime a dozen. If you order marijuana or other drug to be shipped into the country and it gets caught up in customs, you might get
someone dropping by to either attempt a controlled delivery, but in all likelihood I would imagine the most you would receive is a nastygram. If the
same things happend with that egotamine tartrate, you better believe their foot would be up your ass first chance they had.
Also, nearly all criminal convictions occur after the commission of an actual crime, so while you do have to fight for yourself to ensure you aren't
cast in poor light, there is still a good chance you can prove your innocence. I would have said differently a while back, but I have had a new found
relationship with the police department since my wife has made me begin a citizens police academy program they offer because I work too much and need
to get out of the house. I also have a newfound respect for them, and will be going on a ride along with the narcotics division here in the next
couple of weeks. I have gotten to see a lot, and while there are a lot of rocks that I have met, and a few of them in the narcotics division, I have
been pleasantly surprised. Tonight I was able to do "training" with the K-9 division--that was awesome!!! In fact, my hands still smell like marijuana
from the towels used to train the dogs; all the other main drugs were there too, but the smelliest was definitely the marijuana. Next week is police
firearms training at a shooting range located on a local Army base. 
I will be eligible to volunteer with them after completion of the program, and plan to do so, simply because I have had such a good time.
[Edited on 8-4-2016 by Loptr]
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a nitrogen rich explosive
Banned troll
Posts: 176
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Repentant
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@Tdep
What variety of perchlorates?
(Viz. what do you think the UK police would say if they found 100 grams of heptanitropentane hidden in a barn...)
Yay, 10km/s high explosives!!
I can't think of a better signature.
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NedsHead
Hazard to Others
Posts: 409
Registered: 9-12-2014
Location: South Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: Originally posted by chemrox | | Always say you should ask your attorney before doing anything. At least if they push it and arrest you, you've asserted your rights and will get out
of it if you stick to your guns and refuse to help make the case against you.[Edited on 7-4-2016 by chemrox] |
I would add to this by first stating that you would like it noted for the record that you are 100% willing to comply and assist them with the
investigation, but I would like my lawyer to be present for any further questioning, be sure to remain tight lipped and don't fall for any of their
baited questions until your lawyer is present
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a nitrogen rich explosive
Banned troll
Posts: 176
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: Repentant
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I do really need to start keeping a better lab notebook.
What would the police think if they found a lab notebook full of experimental primary explosives?
I can't think of a better signature.
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aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
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They might , ahem, Bang! you up !
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