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Rosco Bodine
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Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  | | Quote: | | There is no religious or philosophical equivalency between religions having similar coincidental beliefs .....but possibly the coincidences are
explainable as being parts of a greater truth being earnestly sought by different men who had some part revealed to them. |
Coincidental Rosco?
Come on, you know as well as I do that Christianity has as its foundations the wreckage of those religions which preceded it! |
Christianity has it's origins in a unique baby boy named Jesus born to a virgin named Mary in a town called Bethlehem. The term "gospel" has been
synonymous with "truth" for a very long time, and there is a reason for that which is a lot better reason than some lame explanation it is a mass
delusion.
Christians were hunted and killed for three hundred years in a failed effort
at their extermination. Would you suppose that such effort was mounted
in order to eliminate a foolish and unfounded, man invented "superstition" ?
You go ahead and believe whatever you think is "reasonable".
Good luck with that.
[Edited on 9-1-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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woelen
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Atheism is something of all times, just as hissingnoise sais, and it probably will be, until God unites the realms of our universe and heavens.
Nothing new here.
But this is not my point. Atheism also is just a point of view, like any religion. The only difference is that atheism denies the existence of all
gods and Christianity denies the existance of all gods, except the One. What I see, however, is that many atheists are so hard and bitter. Why is
this? Because they just see a caricature of religion or even worse, they only WANT to see a caricature of religion. Not all atheists are like that
(actually, quite a few of my best friends are atheists and I myself have been atheist till I was 22 or so). I do not want to blame atheists only, I
also blame a subset of christians. I also know of christians who are harsh and do not show the true value of what Christ has done.
Most of the bitterness does not come from well-informed people, no it comes from people who have strong opinions on the bible, on christianity and on
God Himself, while they never actually read the bible and only heard some distorted stories from people or have seen some fanatics with bold opinions.
The same is true for part of christianity, who are equally ill-informed. They have hard opinions on what science achieved and see many discoveries as
a vice instead of a virtue. In the end, it is all humans who have hard opinions, nothing more, nothing less.
Unfortunately, this makes discussion less than intelligent, we just see lots of hard words billowing over the screens. This kind of discussions leads
nowhere, except to hot heads and cold hearts.
If someone really is interested in religion and not just wants to bash it, then such a person should be honest and try to learn about it. Read about
it, there is good info on it, both from an atheist point of view and a christian point of view. Read a book like the bible and then tell whether you
like it or not. For certain christians I want to say a similar thing. Read what science really is about, what evolution really is about, what
astronomy really is about and then talk again. Then you'll see that all these things do not need to be threat to your faith, actually they can make
your faith deeper/richer.
What I write here, I actually are promoting in my personal surroundings, I invite my non-believer friends to read about Christianity, the bible and so
on, and I invite people from my church and my believing part of the family to read about science in general and more specifically evolution and
cosmology. I can say that more than once in my life this has lead to very interesting discussions, which go much further than the bashing I usually
see on internet forums.
[Edited on 9-1-11 by woelen]
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Rosco Bodine
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So base 10 mathematics can work reasonably well?
| Quote: |
Why does the universe exist? |
God was feeling creative, bored, or lonely?
Your parents wanted a child or you were a surprise? 
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One can either recognize that the questions themselves are flawed and unanswerable, or attempt to resolve them with answers that cannot be proven or
disproven. As our minds are wired in a way that makes unanswered questions troubling, the latter approach is the usual road taken. "It just is" is a
difficult concept to accept. |
That would be equally rationally extensible as a proposition regarding God. He just is, the great "I Am".
The larger more significant question would be is, okay now that I am here, is there anything important beyond all I understand or even can ever
understand, and what will become of me ?
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madscientist
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| Quote: | | So base 10 mathematics can work reasonably well? |
3 is prime regardless of the base used to represent it.
| Quote: | | God was feeling creative, bored, or lonely? |
This is the latter approach I mentioned.
| Quote: | | Your parents wanted a child or you were a surprise? |
I hope you realize I meant the philosophical question.
| Quote: | | That would be equally rationally extensible as a proposition regarding God. He just is, the great "I Am". |
The primeness of 3, the existence of the universe, and the existence of consciousness are all universally verifiable. This is not the case with a
deity. Hence it has no bearing on my point.
Back on topic...
Religion can incorporate ideas delivered by science into its ideology, but it itself cannot endure the rigors of the scientific method. There is no
evidence - only faith - and there is no place for faith without evidence in science. A requirement for verifiable proof is the most
fundamental tenet of scientific reasoning.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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woelen
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| Quote: Originally posted by madscientist | | Religion can incorporate ideas delivered by science into its ideology, but it itself cannot endure the rigors of the scientific method. There is no
evidence - only faith - and there is no place for faith without evidence in science. A requirement for verifiable proof is the most
fundamental tenet of scientific reasoning. |
Yes, this is true. Science by definition only works on verifiable
concepts, otherwise we cannot speak of science anymore. So, a theory which involves faith of some sort is NOT a scientific theory. Every religious
person should accept this! This, however, does not mean that religion is inferior to science, it is another channel of understanding our world.
A hammer is an invaluable tool for building constructions, but does this mean that a lawn mower is an inferior tool? A lawn mower is used for a
completely different thing. A hammer and a lawn mower can even complement each other, together they can be used to construct a nice house with a tidy
place surrounding it. Think of this how religion and science can complement each other.
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vulture
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I do not have a problem with religion per se. I have a problem with religion influencing policy and setting moral standards where it should not.
The current example being the catholic church blowing alot of hyperbole over AIDS and sex. What the hell do they know about this stuff?
I also strongly oppose the common reasoning that religious people are good people because they live up to their moral standards. It's like saying
atheists or others are inherently bad because they don't believe. What about the atheists who are spending their time helping other people instead of
praying?
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The only difference is that atheism denies the existence of all gods and Christianity denies the existance of all gods, except the One.
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That's a rather sweeping statement. I certainly wouldn't say that is the only difference. Also, atheism isn't per se the denial of
existence of (a) god(s), it's rather the lack of evidence supporting the contrary. That may seem trivial, but it's an important distinction.
In case of denial, you believe that there is no god and won't change your mind even if proved wrong.
[Edited on 9-1-2011 by vulture]
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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turd
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| Quote: | | For me, religion also is one of the channels of understanding, but music, arts and yes, science also are. |
But since this is a science board, religion, music and arts are off-topic(*) and should be discussed - like politics - in whimsy. You see, that's the
nice thing about science: it provides a common language (mathematics) and a set of methods which allow to (more or less) objectively evaluate the
quality of your work. Good scientific work stands on its own and the biography of the creator is totally irrelevant. Matter of fact, often experts in
their field are assholes(**), which does not devalue the theories and methods they developed in the slightest. Of course similar things are true for
music: apparently J.S.Bach was not an easy person, yet his work will stay relevant for a long time to come.
In short, the whole premise of this thread - that people even care about your faith in the context of science is bunk. I have the feeling the only
purpose of this thread is to shove some crazy (in my opinion) religious faith into everybody's face. This is akin to youngsters annoying their
co-travelers in a train by playing terribly bad hiphop with their mobile phones. I guess that's where the bitterness you perceive comes from, and
which is just a silly prejudice, btw.
Notes:
(*) Except of course scientific discussions about these subjects. Religion is certainly a hot topic in psychology, psychiatry, neurology, history,
political science, anthropology and more.
(**) Actually I believe that the _really_ good scientists are practically never assholes. It's just the nerds concentrating on one little aspect. This
may be wishful thinking though.
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MagicJigPipe
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About asking god to deliver one from skepticism: I have tried that many times before, especially when I was young and wanted to fit in by believing,
but it never worked. It only helped to reinforce my disbelief. When I get to a computer I'll tell you about an interesting experiment I conducted. I
think it is more likely that a truly benevolent god by human standards will respect such honesty and perhaps even reward it. And if god has a
different set of morals that justifies his rejection of those that honestly can't believe despite repeated efforts, those morals are bullshit and I
reject them anyway. Those morals are more similar to a jealous, attention-seeking teenager than an omniscient and omnibenevolent being. This, of
course, seems like evidence that the god was made up by people who had such immature morals.
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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squirrelwax
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Ommmmmm 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_God_Om#Om
true pity that he is loosing his mind.
but then again any that can truly see are in danger of this.
The little bastards just can't cope with others belifes then they
have to tote prejudice against there small mindedness and
personal orientations.
personally I have to agree with MagicJigPipe's signature.
If what your signature says was true then we would have the freedom
to inquire about these things with out dogma and our faith could
then be our science or is that the other way 
Even the matrix has a sence of humour ;P
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quicksilver
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If a man Believes; I see no reason why he should mind someone who does not do so. I certainly don't resent an Atheist. Provided that person doesn't
intend to force his beliefs on me. I do NOT Evangelize my beliefs on others & I expect them to afford me the same courtesy.
Agnosticism, however is frankly what appears a natural progression from those who had no formal religion in their life & appears entirely
understandable & natural. I have even spoken with a close friend who studied at a seminary & he often spoke of wondering. He was close enough
to me to admit that his faith often wavered. I see nothing evil about that. I deeply believe that it's a classic example of the human condition to
question, doubt, & struggle with very complex issues.
I feel that as long as respect is offered for differing view points; there is nothing inherently "wrong" with any perspective (within limits; their IS
something wrong with harming innocents) - if it respects that of others to maintain their own belief path.
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madscientist
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The position of an atheist (a reasonable one, at least) is not based off beliefs. The religious believe, the atheists don't.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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hkparker
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But you have to have to have faith that their isnt a God, dont you? You cant prove that there is no God and therefore, some faith is involved. Also
it is often said that religion is not open minded to change, which is most of the time true, however most Lutheran churches have accepted and ordained
gay and women pastors recently, something forbidden historically. So they are in some respects open to change.
My YouTube Channel
"Nothing is too wonderful to be true if it be consistent with the laws of nature." -Michael Faraday
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Rosco Bodine
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Old time religion that is bible based is reliable. Neo-orthodoxy sects formed
to serve "special interests" may seem open minded, progressive, and reformed
to those "special interests" who are served by such change and who don't really care if such changes have scriptural authority or not .....because
they are amending Christianity as they go so that it fits what they want to believe,
more than do they believe what it actually teaches and requires. Don't like the message .....don't worry....we are so progressive we will just change
things
for you and make it a "will build to suit tenant" kind of religion and accept the customary ten per cent for your peace of mind about your salvation
.....
never mind whether it exists or not. Progressive religion is a lot like progressive government .......caveat emptor.
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MagicJigPipe
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yes, in the same way one must have faith to disbelieve in fairies, mars, apollo, neverland, unicorns and an lsd crystal one foot in diameter orbiting
pluto.
And rosco, i find your comments about people using christianity to serve their interests amusing seeing as though that is exactly how your (likely)
modern text and dogmas were formed. thousands of years of unauthorized changes, corruption, racism, genocide, despotism and indoctrination is what
made christianity what it is today (yes. i ignored the few good things to make a point). i just don't understand how you can believe the bible that
you know and love was written by god instead of those very people who wanted their interests forwarded. That's what we know about so many other
influential texts, goverments and organizations. why is christianity different? there's definitely no real evidence to suggest it is. why not just
admit that your beliefs fly in the face of reason and evidence and that doesn't bother you? then we can just move on (temporarily i'm sure).
[Edited on 1-10-2011 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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Rosco Bodine
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Wait a minute, what you are describing sounds exactly like statist propaganda
rather than religion and a moral code involving a personal God. Could you be confused about the very thing you are criticizing as being a fairy tale
?
I tell you the world must be an abysmal and scary place for the innocent child of an atheist.
They get their bedtime story and maybe a good luck, I hope you live through the night so we can see each other in the morning. All things considered
.....
a Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray thee Lord my soul to keep....ect. would
probably be in order .....don't you think ?
( do you know how the rest of that bedtime prayer goes ? )
One day we all get to walk that lonesome valley so to speak and
Dawkins or secular humanism isn't going to be there for your comfort .....
but a welcome and needed angel might be there,
if you have chosen well instead of having acted stupidly in this life.
If I'm right then I have a comfort and a heaven to which to look forward,
and if I am wrong, then five seconds after the blood stops flowing through
my brain my consciousness winks out and I am none the wiser nor
am I any the poorer for having tried to "keep the faith" to the end.
If you are right, of course the five second rule applies and nothing
is really changed for me because I sure won't know the difference
as I won't be around any longer to notice or care either way. Therefore
I technically cannot be then disappointed if what I believed was only
a fairy tale. On the other hand, let's say it is yourself coming to your
"end of mission" for this world ....you do see the implications there
are not so favorable if you basically lose the coin toss with the devil
concerning the matter of whether you have a soul or not, and where
it will be going after your last breath. If I am wrong in what I believe
then I don't have to burn for the mistake. But if you are wrong then
you have made an irreversible error that is the mother of all screwups.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHup25Mi3zY
[Edited on 10-1-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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psychokinetic
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You're/they're as bad as each other.
Obviously science and religion cannot exist together peacefully. We can't even have a logical discussion about the two together.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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Rosco Bodine
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Perhaps the perfectly definitive nature of what I just said is disturbing in its implications. And the logic of it is quite impeccable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogU48WZV8WQ
[Edited on 10-1-2011 by Rosco Bodine]
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woelen
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@Rosco: What you are saying about your faith I find quite apalling. I also believe in God just as you do, but you are talking about it like a kind of
insurance. Just believe, then in case you are right, you are happy and in case you are wrong, it doesn't matter at all.
I say something different: The bible tells that if christians indeed are wrong and there is no risen Lord Jesus and just this poor man, who lived
appr. 2000 years ago, then the christians are the saddest people on earth. You can say such a thing, because you (and I also) can express our believes
comfortably in freedom and we can attend services in freedom with no fear for pain, the police or the government. What when you are living in North
Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia or Somalia? But in those countries there also are christians, risking their lives, suffering from suppression and still they
believe. Their life could be a lot easier if they dumped their believes, but they don't. They believe that Lord Jesus is a reality and if the price of
believing this is (very) high, then that be so.
No, fear for the devil and a perilous afterlife is NOT the main reason for believing in God. Actually, I'm sure that many people who are not christian
at all (e.g. atheists or people adhering another religion) may be far better off than many so-called christians. I'm not saying that this applied to
you, please don't understand me wrong, but what I do want to say is that people's salvation is MUCH more certain than you want to make us believe.
So many people simply don't know what to believe and they have their doubs on God or even His existence. Yet, if these people are sincerely
investigating these matters, then God will be graceful, even if they do not find the complete answer and even if they do not really know the ins and
outs of the bible.
Vulture made a remark about people praying instead of acting. He is right. If christians are only praying, evangelizing, and not acting, then
they will not be better off than an atheist who does his/her best to change the world in a better direction. Indeed, true christianity requires words
and deeds. And these deeds must not be things like saying that gay persons are inferior, that AIDS is a punishment of God and that kind of things.
True christians try to help those people with the means they have. Remember, Jesus was with the prostitutes and the people who frauded with tax-money.
He cared about these people, because they were despised by the others from that society. He did not say that their works were good, but he did not
condemn them, he helped them.
Just to give an example from my own life. I know a girl (now a grown up woman) from the southern part of the Netherlands who is lesbian and she (more
or less) was expelled by her Roman Catholic family when she told about her feelings. This is something I abhor and I think this is the worst thing a
christian can do. We (as a group of christian students at that time) tried to help her by accepting her as she was and have her feel welcome. We had
discussions with her and within our group there were different opinions on lesbian sexuality, but none of us condemned her. If you point with one
finger to someone else, then three or four fingers point to yourself.
And what is happening now with the release of information about child abuse in the Roman Catholic church (and possibly in some other churches as well)
is good, very good. The fire of openness should burn away all the rotten and hidden abuse of young people, all those so-called pastors and priests
should be punished and every stone should be turned upside down to bring all of this rotting evil to the daylight. I may sound harsh in this, but I
think that is the only way this evil can be taken out. It must be cut away from the root and if this means that the organisational structure of church
is damaged in this process, then that be so. Church may be damaged, but Christ will have His victory if all of this evil is taken away.
[Edited on 10-1-11 by woelen]
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | | @Rosco: What you are saying about your faith I find quite apalling. I also believe in God just as you do, but you are talking about it like a kind of
insurance. Just believe, then in case you are right, you are happy and in case you are wrong, it doesn't matter at all. |
You have observed here and elsewhere that unbelievers ridicule as being irrational the choice which believers do make and I knew
when I summarized one definitive aspect of the entirely valid rationale which is applicable by using such a stark example.....it would be disturbing
and should be to any having reason for concern .....but it should not be an "appalling" example for another Christian that I would "take the gloves
off" in a setting of such scholarly debate with skeptics. It does tend to lay it on the line with regards to exposing the fallacy of the atheists
allegations that there is a flawed rationale at the basis of Christianity.
When you get things down to simplest terms it doesn't seem so irrational after all, and the debate on that point is really over right there at that
particular fork in the road.
For your gentleness and meekness you want to keep moving that "point of reckoning" further down the road for the comfort of people who are a bit slow
to "get it".
You would indulge the deceptive arguments of skeptics
more than myself to a distance beyond the point where I will simply stand my ground and state the plain fact. These aren't babies to whom we are
speaking in this forum, but grown men. Sometimes stark honesty cuts through all the crap. And there isn't any way to remove from the matter of
decision the fact that it truly is an ultimatum, the mother
of all ultimatums.....because that indeed is just exactly what it is. Some people sugar coat it. But the medicine is the same. Plain talk should be
okay about plain matters. Christianity actually could be compared to a kind of insurance policy on a persons soul, the premium for which has already
been paid by the blood of a crucified Jesus. However, to
put that "soul insurance policy" into effect, a person has to
"opt in" by publicly professing their faith in Jesus, and hopefully also being baptized.
| Quote: |
I say something different: The bible tells that if christians indeed are wrong and there is no risen Lord Jesus and just this poor man, who lived
appr. 2000 years ago, then the christians are the saddest people on earth. |
I must have missed that part. Maybe I am a little slow this morning, so please tell me the passage there on that one and I'll look it up.
| Quote: |
You can say such a thing, because you (and I also) can express our believes comfortably in freedom and we can attend services in freedom with no fear
for pain, the police or the government. What when you are living in North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia or Somalia? But in those countries there also are
christians, risking their lives, suffering from suppression and still they believe. Their life could be a lot easier if they dumped their believes,
but they don't. They believe that Lord Jesus is a reality and if the price of believing this is (very) high, then that be so. |
Exactly. Persecution or even martyrdom can very much be the worldly price paid for being a Christian irregardless of whether there is a Christ or
not. So it is no trivial or shallow
belief that resides in the heart of a Christian. It defines a
point of absolute reckoning with the world and its secular or otherwise heathen beliefs. There's no avoiding that.
| Quote: |
No, fear for the devil and a perilous afterlife is NOT the main reason for believing in God. Actually, I'm sure that many people who are not christian
at all (e.g. atheists or people adhering another religion) may be far better off than many so-called christians. I'm not saying that this applied to
you, please don't understand me wrong, but what I do want to say is that people's salvation is MUCH more certain than you want to make us believe.
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Love is the best reason for believing in God. However, with regards to fear of the devil .....listen to yourself and you will
see that to have such fear then there would already be a belief .....a person would not believe in a devil worthy of fear unless they also believed in
a God worthy of love and can understand the love which casts out fear. So there is here an entering into circular logic. If a person needs to seek
shelter from a storm and the inviting glow of good company
beckoning from a sanctuary is insufficient motivation, if a thunderclap should send them running for safety instead .....then praise the Lord for the
noise. Hold the door open for them .....wait, there's yet another in the distance
increasing from a gallop to a full run, coming in from the storm.
| Quote: |
So many people simply don't know what to believe and they have their doubs on God or even His existence. Yet, if these people are sincerely
investigating these matters, then God will be graceful, even if they do not find the complete answer and even if they do not really know the ins and
outs of the bible. |
If God chooses to speak to mans heart and really needs that mans listening, well look
at Jonah as an
example of persuasiveness. Yes indeed God would more
likely be gentle and graceful .....but not always so subtle, it would depend on the circumstances. Students are probably a special case, as are
children.
| Quote: |
Vulture made a remark about people praying instead of acting. He is right. If christians are only praying, evangelizing, and not acting, then
they will not be better off than an atheist who does his/her best to change the world in a better direction. Indeed, true christianity requires words
and deeds. And these deeds must not be things like saying that gay persons are inferior, that AIDS is a punishment of God and that kind of things.
True christians try to help those people with the means they have. Remember, Jesus was with the prostitutes and the people who frauded with tax-money.
He cared about these people, because they were despised by the others from that society. He did not say that their works were good, but he did not
condemn them, he helped them. |
Really I don't pray as much as I should, I'm not good at it.
So I tend to try to help strangers when I see them in a lurch,
good samaritan kind of stuff. I generally offer no explanation
for the kindness, it is like a band aid on a skinned knee and
I know that....but every little bit can help so I try to do my little part when that opportunity is there.
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Just to give an example from my own life. I know a girl (now a grown up woman) from the southern part of the Netherlands who is lesbian and she (more
or less) was expelled by her Roman Catholic family when she told about her feelings. This is something I abhor and I think this is the worst thing a
christian can do. We (as a group of christian students at that time) tried to help her by accepting her as she was and have her feel welcome. We had
discussions with her and within our group there were different opinions on lesbian sexuality, but none of us condemned her. If you point with one
finger to someone else, then three or four fingers point to yourself. |
If homosexuality and its attendant philosophies and practices were consistent with Christianity, or marriage, or the priesthood or ministry of
churches, then the commentary of the bible would be different from what it is on the subject.
Some people can choose to ignore that and differ with it for their own comfort. This is one of those matters though where there isn't ambiguity in
what the bible says about it.
Is it a controversial matter, you betcha it is controversial.
Should a Christian ever lose sight of what the bible says
about homosexuality .....no sir. Some may think they can
pick and choose on that issue, but that is a secular and social and not a Christian concept, no matter who may
think it is some neo-orthodoxy reformation of inclusion and tolerance ....it is heretical to have homosexual marriage
and homosexual ministers.
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And what is happening now with the release of information about child abuse in the Roman Catholic church (and possibly in some other churches as well)
is good, very good. The fire of openness should burn away all the rotten and hidden abuse of young people, all those so-called pastors and priests
should be punished and every stone should be turned upside down to bring all of this rotting evil to the daylight. I may sound harsh in this, but I
think that is the only way this evil can be taken out. It must be cut away from the root and if this means that the organisational structure of church
is damaged in this process, then that be so. Church may be damaged, but Christ will have His victory if all of this evil is taken away. [Edited on
10-1-11 by woelen] |
It is simply a sad commentary on humanity that where there are children there are going to be child molesters, and unfortunately the perversion of
homosexuality is particularly active in molestation of children as a part of the expression of that "orientation". It isn't politically correct to
call it a mental illness anymore. Anyway, it isn't fair to associate such evil (or mental illness) with any particular religion, simply because a
notorious scandal occurs involving a religion for whom the practice is a defined abomination before God. The matter is very different for the
heterosexual child molestation as has been associated with the polygamy sects of Mormons, where that perversion is an actual teaching and normal
practice. It is important not to ever
identify false doctrines and evil practices with Christianity
but to recognize that those things are subversive. The
same sort of subversion occurs with other groups and notoriously it also happens with government, where the
personal ambitions of evil men are substituted for whatever
virtuous things should be the mission instead. In my country right now there is a struggle between the people and a government which acts in ways
that are contrary both to
established law and the will of the people, because of the
ambitions of subversives who are socialists or communists
but who incorrectly and deceptively identify themselves as
"progressives" or "liberals" because that sounds nicer than
saying they are socialists and communists. The same kinds of shenanigans can carry over from the "social order" of
society and pollute the orthodoxy of the church with delusions there is now in effect some neo-orthodoxy that
is also "progressive" .....when it is only subversive.
There is no way to sugar coat that truth either.
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madscientist
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You're veering wildly off-topic. This thread is about the modern relations of science and religion, not Bolshevik Democrats and their gulags.
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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hissingnoise
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I blame the parents . . .
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quicksilver
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It appears that an Atheist HAS to believe* in some sense; in that I cannot find a solid proof that there IS NO God. Therefore and Atheist (capital
"A") must devote a faith to his "beliefs" that God does not exist. No where have I found a proof that God does not exist . :-)
*Many great scientists had not found a "-proof" that a "Greater aspect" did not exist. Those who were Atheists "choose" to be so because they could
not find a Proof that such a thing DOES exist. It is not so much a question of validation as it is a choice.
I was raised as an Atheist. - As a child and young adult it was a very lonely & frankly frightening place to be. This was my experience; as
looking back some many decades. If some find me childish for embracing that perspective; I find that I am the luckier for being so. I would not demand
that others believe as I do (or in any manner take up my way of thinking) but I found a great comfort in a Belief that there is a "Greater concept". I
was also VERY lucky in that I found loving ethical people who had within them a compassion for someone in my position. That is why I carry on a small
tradition not being angry or Evangelistic regarding Faith. It MUST be a personal choice, acceptance, & provide a warmth. Without that it's simple
dogma & hollow ritual.
In fact I feel almost too self-conscious to share what I believe. I think it's a very private thing that perhaps should remain so unless asked
directly. Prayer (for me) is more of a self examination process wherein I speak to a deeper "me" & it's very tough to explain. In fact it SO tough
to put into words I would even demonstrate:
If you have ever saved someone's life (-=really=- saved their life!) and looked into their eyes when all the shit and gristle was over, the
communication that is shared, that goes well past gratitude; to me is an example of 'The Spirit". It could be said to be a "Greater Good" or a Greater
Productivity but it goes even beyond that! {And that's simply the Spiritual demonstration of a defining moment.}
You see how tough that is to define?
I am certain that Religion & Science can co-exist provided mutual respect for that which is a choice can be achieved. Can two individuals who vote
different ways, work together? I believe so - provided that they have mutual respect for each other and do not let a demand "to convince" obscure the
nature of a working relationship.
[Edited on 10-1-2011 by quicksilver]
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madscientist
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In the context of religion, beliefs exist without evidence; in the context of atheism, "beliefs" are specifically due to a lack of evidence. It's
unreasonable to cast the two as equivalent.
Atheists are just skeptics. As there's no evidence, an atheist simply doesn't bother with religion.
There's a widespread misconception that atheists obsess over godslaying - spending their days bitter and angry, splattering pig's blood pentagrams on
the wall - but the reality is most spend little time thinking about it, just as we would with MJP's theory of a giant LSD crystal orbiting Pluto, or
any other incredible internet rumor.
[Edited on 10-1-2011 by madscientist]
I weep at the sight of flaming acetic anhydride.
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Rosco Bodine
Banned
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A reasonable measure of healthy skepticism is just common sense. But a child can be
troublesome with the continual "prove it" or "make me" or "why?" in response
to everything they are told. Life is short. We don't all have a thousand years
to "get it" concerning things we need to know, as if anyone will live long enough
to fully perfect their knowledge of anything.
The increase of knowledge is in large part due to "intuition" leading to hypothesis and theory and then to attempts at confirmation. That same
process and rationale, although necessarily more abstract can be applicable to philosophy and
within boundaries to religion. Anyway, the well proven point I see that is made a matter of flat denial by many atheists, is that there is a
legitimacy of rationale and reason which can apply particularly to Christianity .....a proven point that
at least on a philosophical basis there does exist a valid rationale involved in
Christianity which is a weightier matter than mere superstition having no rational basis as would be a "belief" invalidated by any intellectual
scrutiny, as being
contrary to reason. To put it more precisely, no Christian should be thought
to be somehow stupid for being a Christian as if there were no historical or philosophical or rational basis (or merit) for having such beliefs, as
if the entire matter
was just some wild fairy tale and mass delusion evidencing weak mindedness or weakness of character. Even if there was only a social structuring and
organizational motive, involving deliberately designed psychology for the greater good of the "flock", to offer some moral discipline and dignity and
social order for human enterprise ....certainly Christianity has served that purpose. So it would not be without merit even if that was all it had
accomplished....it would still be inspired.
It really is a kind of hysteria of cynicism and dishonesty that is not humorous, when non-Christians maliciously criticize Christians as unreasoning
and superstitious idiots incapable of rational thought, especially when trying to
hold out something like secular humanism, the invent it as you go along "religion"
as the "more intelligent", more sophisticated substitute or "cure". This is a definite case in point where the "cure" is worse than the greater
sanity misidentified as being a "disease". For my part I would say that if evil ambition is the ultimate human "computer" virus ......then affected
users should download and install the gospel "hotfix" to protect
their core operating system from "data loss" involving their
soul. A reformat and reinstall just may not be an option later.
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psychokinetic
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Mood: Constantly missing equilibrium
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No.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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