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MagicJigPipe
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Registered: 19-9-2007
Location: USA
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Cocaine is know to be one of the worst drugs for the cardiovascular system. It acts much like lidocaine (they use it sometimes during cardiac
arrythmia to "jumpstart" or induce a normal rythym in the heart) and it is also a vasoconstrictor. That's one of the many reasons cocaine is never
(in a medical setting) administered internally and (meth)amphetamine is. I was told by a friend that works in a hospital that they consider any
amount of cocaine an overdose. Whether or not they say that about other drugs I'm not sure.
Not super reliable but...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/355256.stm
http://www.steadyhealth.com/Cocaine_Heart_Attack_And_Stroke_...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990601081626.ht...
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&re...
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/coke/a/blnida030430.htm
(Meth)amphetamine... Not so much. However, anything that causes one to be "on edge" can increase the chance of heart attack, cocaine has many more
factors contributing to it's risk than other stimulants.
[Edited on 23-12-2007 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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quicksilver
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I had thought that one CNS stimulant was as destructive as another (or more or less so depending on the route of administration). Interesting stuff.
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LSD25
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Registered: 29-11-2007
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Mood: Psychotic (Who said that? I know you're there...)
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Oh for fucks sake,
If you want to read about chemistry, do so...
If you want to try it, bloody do so..
If you just want to whinge about what the owners of this site feel is acceptable....
Nah, won't say it - cos I ain't in the position to say it...
The thing is that the people who own this site and pay the bloody bills determine what they feel is acceptable - they perform the balancing act
between social responsibility and censorship based upon their own idea of where the line should be drawn.
Personally I feel there is no difference between breweries and cigarette companies and the average drug-cook... They all knowingly and intentionally
produce something, for which they know there is a market, despite knowing that their product has the potential to seriously fuck up the life of
others, causes harm and is addictive. However each person has their own moral viewpoint which is truly fucking irrelevant to this forum.
The fact remains that I find some of the content on this forum utterly reprehensible, I dislike the association of this forum and discussions upon a
variety of potential bombmaking topics - which quite possibly may have already been utilised in the development of IED's and other devices by
terrorists/fanatics in Iraq, etc.
The thing is, I don't use this forum as a soapbox to decry the association between amateur science and Hizbollah, Hamas, Al Quaeda, etc. I most
assuredly could, they are constantly developing improved IED's, shaped-charges, rockets and so on, and all of this requires some chemistry knowledge,
but it is irrelevant to the majority of the reasons why I value this site. I could also point out, that the advent of serious domestic terrorism has
probably contributed as much, if not more, to the public perception of amateur chemistry as drug-cooks - particularly post-Oklahoma City, 11 September
& the London bombings.
I mean, to be fair, I honestly and sincerely believe that in the spirit of cooperation and fairness, that every thread on the improvisation of
explosive devices and especially shaped-charge devices, should be shut down automatically once they descend into mere cookery type discussion. It
ain't likely to happen because of double-standards, but this is what I think.
I have to ask however, should I do as you have done and pollute every thread dealing with this type of discussion with strident calls for the closing
of the thread and the immediate expulsion of the contributor's thereto? No, I should do what I do do, read and contribute to the threads that interest
me and ignore those that I disagree with. No it ain't right, but I haven't earned the right to force my opinion down everybody elses throat.
Whhhoooppps, that sure didn't work
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quicksilver
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| Quote: | Originally posted by LSD25
I have to ask however, should I do as you have done and pollute every thread dealing with this type of discussion with strident calls for the closing
of the thread and the immediate expulsion of the contributor's thereto? No, I should do what I do do, read and contribute to the threads that interest
me and ignore those that I disagree with. No it ain't right, but I haven't earned the right to force my opinion down everybody elses throat.
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Who exactly has done that? Not one person that I have read has done anything of that nature.
[Edited on 20-2-2008 by quicksilver]
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LSD25
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You haven't? Really? Perhaps I was too subtle?
I wasn't referring to you, not at all. There is a core of people on this site who seem to spend a great deal of their time and a whole lot of other
peoples bandwidth on whingeing about what the people running this site see fit to allow. I suspect they know damn well who they are, the same as I
know damn well who they are. It is just that I see the incredible hypocrisy of this approach, even illegal drugs are not normally designed
specifically to kill, maim and dismember the innocent.
Given the fact that this core appears to have used this topic to reiterate their skewed version of morality, it is necessary that the alternative
viewpoint be stated unequivocally and in response to the topic as a whole. Given that I have experienced both, and that I personally believe that the
majority of harm done by illegal drugs is caused by the fact that they are illegal, overpriced and run by criminals - or that the greatest of the harm
could be alleviated by treating the consequences of drug use, not by causing the same by continued prohibition, it is a matter of some indifference to
me if I am called an apologist for drug-cooks.
On the other hand, I have some training in the use and application of explosives via a parabolic curve and see no way in which the continued
discussion of ways to improvise the same could be justified where it descends into cookery, I know that IED's are designed to kill, destroy and
seriously alter the lives of those coming into contact with them. I also know for a fact that the use of these weapons (and that is all they can be
described as) by terrrorists/fanatics (of any stripe) is increasing and the level of expertise is improving. I find it very difficult to assauge my
personal horror at the thought that this and other sites see no problem in marginalising criminality whilst apparently pandering to vicious, murdering
terrorist bomb-makers.
The difference in the evil is best illustrated by the fact that although both destroy lives and the lives of the families of those affected, those
harmed by drugs are harmed by the by-products of their own choices, whereas those harmed by explosives are rarely harmed as a consequence of the
choices made of their own volition. To equate the one with the other and say that the harm caused by ones own choices is more inherently evil than the
intentional infliction of harm upon others as a result of choices made by another person, is to seriously mistate the equation.
The fact that the continued improvement in terrrorist/fanatic IED's appears to mirror the improvement in the knowledge available to amateur chemists
(from sites such as this), particularly with regard to the use of shaped charges, improved explosives and various liners, truly scares me and will
probably see the end of this form of information exchange far sooner than anything else. To ignore this whilst demonising those who wish to talk about
drugs is absurd and hypocritical. The fact that topics discussing the above and dealing step-by-step with the improvement of shaped charges and liners
for the same exist on this site will see this site become a favourite of these terrorists/fanatics and the rather nasty-in-their-own-right
intelligence agencies tasked with monitoring the same.
My entire point was that the damage done to amateur science is not attributable solely to the 'greed' of drug-cooks, but also to the bloody minded
misuse of energetics by fanatics bent upon killing as many innocent people as possible. This is my opinion, I am entitled to hold it and you are
entitled to agree or disagree with it.
Whhhoooppps, that sure didn't work
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Sauron
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Registered: 22-12-2006
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Seems to me the one doing the wingeing and wasting of others' bandwidth is LSD25.
You might have a look at the recent and ongoing thread about phenylacetonitriles to see how the pro-drug faction whines and bellyaches when a very
senior moderator (vulture) makes a call that THEY don't approve.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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LSD25
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Mood: Psychotic (Who said that? I know you're there...)
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No, moderators on this site have the right to do as they please in order to draw the line on this site. I personally would prefer that there was a
greater degree of uniformity in the decision making process, but shit, I read that this is being worked on.
No, my problem would be the fucking hypocrisy of people who really ain't in a position to make pointed statements against someone who has posted a
total of 5 posts (in appropriate threads) dealing with this, especially given their own hundred plus posts, scattered throughout the entire site,
decrying the evil of 'drug-cooks'?
What really irks is that semi-serious discussion, ie. that which contains some material of a serious nature is being consigned to detritus, etc. while
pointless, repetitive drivel written by an apparent imbecile, seeking information on the making of the worlds No.1 drug-precursor continues to be
answered by our resident anti-drug campaigner, and that this crud (there is no other way to explain it), which would the subject of derision at
Totse.com, continues to be given a prominant placement in the organic chemistry discusssion...
I mean, if drug-chemistry is to be tolerated with bad-grace if only the discussion about it surpasses or even attains a minima of scientific rigour or
even style, then I struggle to understand how the incessant reposting of tripe into the aforementioned thread is to be considered? I assume even our
resident counter-counter-culture rebel from asia would be somewhat cognisant of the reasons why that particular chemical is difficult to acquire in
Asia?
PS What, the remainder of the argument was perhaps beyond your capacity to understand and/or refute? Are we to see yet another example of utterly
peurile counter-accusation and counter-charge which misses (or avoids) the fundemental central argument?
Whhhoooppps, that sure didn't work
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Fleaker
International Hazard
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Registered: 19-6-2005
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Mood: nucleophilic
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It doesn't matter much anymore LSD25--Nicodem is the new moderator for the Organic Chemistry section. Read what he has to say about the topic of
censorship with respect to explosives and drugs; you will find he is of like mind as you are. I will trust his judgment.
I personally dislike blatant cookery threads or obvious bomb/IED related threads. I feel it detracts from the forum quality as a whole.For people
seeking to post on such subjects, I feel that they should at least give the impression that they know what they are doing and have put adequate
research into it. I also realize that I have the option of not reading threads that I believe to be drug or explosive related. Just my opinion on it.
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
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Location: Netherlands
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Mood: interested
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You indeed have the option to not read that kind of threads, but their presence does harm to sciencemadness (and to the hobby of home chemistry / home
science as a whole).
I would say, as long as the discussion is chemistry related AND has some scientific meaning and content, it must be left open to my opinion. Even if
the compounds in question can be used to make drugs or explosives.
If a thread is just something like: how can I make explosive X or drug precursor Y, then please kill those threads 
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LSD25
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 29-11-2007
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Mood: Psychotic (Who said that? I know you're there...)
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Yeah,
Fleaker I was happy (although I personally am somewhat ambivalent to Nicodem) to see Nicodem made a mod... All other things put aside, Nicodem is
fair and appears to be unbiased. This also extends to the majority of the mods/others on this site, they prefer to allow threads that are not overtly
and blatantly cookery related to continue.
The thing is, I personally am quite happy to see and read Sauron's post, I am just beginning to get irritated by the continued 'drug-cooks' this and
'drug-cooks' that shit. This blatent one-sided approach misses and understates the harmful effect on home-chemistry posed by explosives, etc. Please
note, I have nothing against well researched and written threads, or the contributor's thereto, dealing with this subject - it is just that the
failure to point this out is hypocritical.
I do not even attempt to hide the fact that I am interested in, amongst other things, drug-related chemistry. It is perhaps also pertinent to state
that I am mildly interested (coming from some experience with the same) in explosives and the various ways such can be utilised. Quite frankly, I see
no reason for me to apologise for either any more than I intend to apologise for being interested in making chemistry related gadgets or modifying
them.
I try very hard to be tolerant of others, it is just sometimes this is harder than I can bear.
Whhhoooppps, that sure didn't work
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Sauron
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Stop being a drama queen.
Wingeing is bad enough without being repetitive and long-winded about it.
You accuse others of hypocrisy but, you are just as much as any trying to impose your personal worldview of Good vs Evil Amateur Chemistry on all
others as anyone else here.
Put a sock in it. If you ever had a point you have known worn out the gramaphone.
Sic gorgeamus a los subjectatus nunc.
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YT2095
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Threads that degenerate into This type of nonsense are as equally if not More responsible for causing damage to good forums!
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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quicksilver
International Hazard
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Location: Inches from the keyboard....
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What do we have here?
Drug making (or interest in) = Leftist, Progressive ?
Explosive / energetic materials interest = Rightest, Conservative ?
I'm sorry but that's a bit silly.
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solo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by __________
I know this subjected has been touched on and is of great importance to anyone doing chemistry at home. Perhaps most of us have never really seen the
"roots" of all these drug chemists so it only comes to us in a more informative type of way or so it's the usual way.
Today I was browsing for some of the contents of drain opener Sulfuric acid and by pure chance I came to a site (displayed on the search engine) that
talked about them in an unrelated type of way (as usual). After reading some of the article I went to the main directory to see if I could find
anything of importance. As it turns out it isn't your regular chemistry-fun experiments type of site it was a drug making site. What really strike me
here is that whoever wrote this page actually has some decent amount of chemistry knowledge and yet the person is doing that sort of thing. Just what
drives people to actually take on chemistry to accomplish such degrading task?
Here's the site if anyone is interested to look at it but now I don't even know just how good of an idea this is to have in your "history" files.
http://designer-drug.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/in... |
...........all this nonsense because someone doesn't like The-Hive type of material.....the web is large and to bring it up as not your cup of tea was
a folly, as it only starts and fuels conflict and political differences ......there are many bees's here more than you know,.....you like red I like
blue......wow lets argue.....not! this is a science forum it's about investigating and experimenting not about personal likes and
dislikes......there!....I couldn't keep quiet anymore......solo
It's better to die on your feet, than live on your knees....Emiliano Zapata.
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Fleaker
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Very well said solo. It is indeed a chemistry forum, but I still maintain that we should have some criterion of excellence for such posts. I have
nothing against drugs or their proper use. What I disdain is that information gleaned from here may go to someone who is motivated only by money and
cares little for what his products do to the lives of others. They then aren't out to learn, only to profit and I do not think such a thing is what
this forum is about. The same goes for explosives use; here we are (I hope) interested in the chemistry of their making, not in how to practically
apply them for terrorist purposes. And solo, I do know that some ex-Hive members are here and believe me, I have a lot of respect for the talent that
quite a few of them have. If any illicit drugs are to be made, I would much rather have them coming in a fairly pure state from someone who knew what
he was doing, rather than some matchbox hillbilly profiteer. At least then it is less likely that people will hurt themselves.
Yet if I think like that, then I must be fair and consider practical explosives threads to be dangerous as well. If I think that stupid cookery
threads ruin this board, then so must I also think that stupid explosives threads discredit us. I don't want to be a hypocrite.
I'm against censorship too, but I realize that information can be deadly. Thus I suggest that such posts dealing with explosives and drug related
chemistry be of a high calibre like something out of a respected journal. While it won't solve the problem of people misusing information, it will
definitely discourage some poor fool's thought " oh, making this from that is so easy!! I can't wait to try it, I'll just follow this recipe".
Instead, people without a certain level of expertise will go to other threads of a more basic level. This, to a certain extent, keeps dangerous
knowledge or corrupting knowledge out of the heads of those who aren't mature, responsible, or experienced enough to use it appropriately.
As to who decides what is fit for common discussion, or what requires censorship, I am in no position to say: it is up to the moderators and
administrators of the board and their personal likes and dislikes.
[Edited on 22-2-2008 by Fleaker]
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
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