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IrC
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"I wish I could remember the text on the electrochemical life thing."
While it never sounds good to post links from ufo quackery sites, I found one page that talked about the old 1800's experiment creating life. While I
do not advise wasting much time with the site itself the page I link here is a good one, and gives enough information for anyone wanting to search the
subject further. In 1969 I spent the evening in the secure basement of the Linda Hall science library reading the very book which contained the very
complete written account of this man and his experiments. I noticed in the link I give below that they mention not knowing the exact specifics of the
experiments in order to recreate them. I remember well that the book I read was complete in detail but it has been far too long for me to remember it.
Taking the book out or copying it was out of the question, certain old books they had were only viewable with a library person watching over it and
they could not be handled or taken to a copier (the technology of copiers in 1969 was crap anyway). I still do not remember enough to search for the
exact book itself but I think it was some type of book printed by the London Electrical society. The reason I kept thinking it was Michael Faraday is
that in the book I read was also a report in detail of the experiments he did which had given identical results. It was the writing of Faraday in the
book that was so in depth into exact details which stuck in my memory. It was not until I could find the name of the originator that I could do any
searching on the subject as nothing appears online related to this under Faradays name.
The experiments mentioned in the links below is the exact scientist I was trying to remember months ago so I put them here as FYI.
http://www.spartechsoftware.com/dimensions/mystical/AndrewCr...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Crosse
http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/crossan.htm
Good detail on the experiments:
http://www.rexresearch.com/crosse/crosse.htm
http://www.cheniere.org/misc/sparkoflife.htm
"This is Acarus electricus, a mite first noticed by Andrew Crosse in 1837. Crosse was an amateur scientist, and was conducting experiments on the
growth of crystals by subjecting certain minerals to long term, low level electric currents. The mineral sample, an iron oxide, was imbibed with a
toxic mixture of hydrochloric acid and a silicate of potash solution, and continuously electrified by means of a battery. Several weeks into the
experiment, filaments began to appear on the stone, which apparently resembled insects. Eventually, Crosse noticed movement, and detected a great
number of living mites on the sample. He repeated the experiment under closely monitored conditions using sterilized and sealed equipment. Again, the
mites appeared. Word soon got out, and popular opinion was that living creatures had been synthesized from inorganic matter. Crosse was called
everything from a blasphemer to a Frankenstein, despite the fact that he never made any claims that he had created life, or even discovered a new
species. In fact, he never attempted to explain the phenomenon, other than hazarding a guess that they may have hatched from airborne eggs deposited
before the device was sealed."
I find it interesting that many including Faraday redid this work with positive results and had also carefully considered contamination among other
things. This makes one wonder if there really is something to these experiments. The text just above is the closest I can find to the words in one
account I read in that old book, good enough for any of you out here who want to try their hand at making a modern frankenstein.
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woelen
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But if this is so interesting, then why nobody has done it anymore for the last 150 years? The equipment for the experiment is not that extensive, and
a small lab with a good oven for sterilizing and vacuum machinery could do these experiments.
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IrC
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No idea. Some things just get lost in time. I would not mind having a few scrolls from the library of Alexandria to study.
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Marvin
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The filiments sound like the 'crystal garden' type experiments from sodium silicate solution.
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IrC
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That was my thoughts also. I wish I had a copy of the ancient book though as reading the work of Faraday and Crosse leaves no doubt these things
behaved as if they were an insect colony and while I am not sure about Crosse I know Faraday would not have been so easily fooled nor so cavalier in
his experiments. Hell the guy has units named after him he must have been a very good scientist for his day right?
Little crystals certainly would not behave as if they were alive. Interesting mystery for sure, just wish I had a way to copy and paste the words I
remember reading by these guys so long ago. What I wouldn't give to be able to go back to K.C. and scan that book.
I just remembered that this book was also where I read this very in depth study of some experiments by a Japanese scientist on electrets, and this
story stuck me with experimenting along this line for the rest of my life. I still to this day experiement and play with electrets, recently I just
finished building the best over 100 KV supply I have ever owned for just this research.
[Edited on 29-8-2006 by IrC]
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Nicodem
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| Quote: | Originally posted by IrC
I wish I had a copy of the ancient book though as reading the work of Faraday and Crosse leaves no doubt these things behaved as if they were an
insect colony and while I am not sure about Crosse I know Faraday would not have been so easily fooled nor so cavalier in his experiments.
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If they would appear as live insect-like entities, a true scientist, even a 19th century one, would do some very predictable things. First he would
switch off the current to see if this phenomenon is current dependent. Second, he would isolate the things in a separate baker and see if it the
phenomenon still exists outside the ambient/solution/conditions where it was created. Third, he would most certainly observe the phenomenon under a
microscope and make detailed observations of the supposedly alive entity. And all this even before any serious research – definitively the same day
of the original observation. How could any of these scientists get a sleep without doing any of these basic steps? IrC, do you happen to remember at
least if any of such evaluations was mentioned in that old book, though not necessarily remembering any details?
No available notes on any such preliminary evaluation seam to be available to us regardless of the claim that Faraday and several others were able to
reproduce the experiment. So, unless there was some censorship in action, I would say all this is pretty much useless. I would recon this is the
reason why this thing simply evaporated from history and only the account of the religious fanatics destroying the career of the young and promising
researcher remained written. Remember Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons? Sure you do, but will anybody remember them after 170 years? Unless someone
proves they were right, I don’t think anybody will.
| Quote: | | Little crystals certainly would not behave as if they were alive. |
Actually, little crystals certainly could behave like being alive when exposed to a changing electrical field, which an electrochemical cell with
errant currents among the chargeable crystals could certainly cause. Compare with iron powder in a moving magnetic field to get the picture.
Furthermore, very small crystals could even be prone to Brownian motion that might appear as some kind of lively activity, though this could only be observed under a microscope unless the crystals would
be some very light or aerogel-like. (However, Crosse should have been familiar with Brownian motion given that it was described a decade earlier.)
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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IrC
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I have no doubt Faraday did the tests you describe and he was aware of brownian motion so I suppose you are right. Censorship seems likely the only
reason no other accounts survive, remember what a draconian religious society existed at the time. I know Faraday defended Crosse, but as to any later
work being mentioned I am not aware of any. As to electric fields, I clearly remember some of the writings mentioned observing the creatures/entities
under static conditions with no juice applied to discount this very idea. Only during formation was a field applied to the cell.
Censorship does indeed suck big time!
This I do know for a fact. The book survives but to see it you need someone as credentials. The basement at the Linda Hall science library is not open
to the public as far as I know, I had a science teacher who had past affiliations which gave him access and he used to take a group of us geeks there
every monday night in 1969. It was one of the times of my life I remember most fondly no doubt. If anyone here still has access to this vault I would
sure like to see the whole book copied. Everything from electrets to whacky lifeforms written by the best scientific minds of the victorian era.
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franklyn
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| Quote: | Originally posted by IrC
In 1969 I spent the evening in the secure basement of the Linda Hall science library
reading the very book which contained the very complete written account of
this man and his experiments. |
You and all here should be aware that library security is designed to prevent
theft of its collections. It is entirely open to anyone who would surreptitiously
introduce a book or document of his own into such a collection. The recent
" Da Vince Code " is an example of a hoax perpetrated in this way.
| Quote: | Originally posted by IrC
Taking the book out or copying it was out of the question |
A library that does not possess photographic reproduction capabitlities is just
a private collection.
It took me about 2 minutes to find the citation in the Library of Congress online catalog
searching by author -> Crosse, Andrew
http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?DB=local&PA...
Nicodem is right , this written account you read is merely an anecdotal
assertion with a shocking lack of followup.
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IrC
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The search you give is not the book I read. It also contained writings by Faraday and others, including a writeup on the electrets and the details
were quite good. It was more like a Scientific American in content. Also, 40 years ago the number of fruitcakes was much smaller than it is today.
Nobody was going to sneak a book into a library that was so old it was of great value. Besides, this was not a private collection. It was one of two
major underground repositories of scientific knowledge for the US to preserve scientific information in case of nuclear attack, this was the purpose
of the vault. Also they would have needed to get into the file system of the library to get the book information entered into the filing system as it
was going through the fishes that I found this interesting sounding title. There was nothing magical or mystical, or mysterious going on here. It was
merely a very old book which was for real at the time of its publication which was in the 1860's IIRC.
I think way too much conspiracy theory crap abounds on the internet and it is affecting your thinking. The book was what it was. There is no point in
picking apart too far this whole subject, I just gave it as FYI for anyone interested in looking into some of the stranger scientific works of the
past.
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Mr_Benito_Mussolini
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http://rapidshare.de/files/31374912/Cross_s_Acari.djvu.html
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IrC
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Good post. It is another account which so far is also all I can find searching but one thing I got from your post was the name of the book I read so
long ago. It was the "Transactions of the London Electrical Society" but I do not remember the year, other than the issue in question I am guessing
was in the 1860's, and contained the actual article he wrote which gave details of the work. It also contained a writeup by Faraday on the Crosse
subject which gave particulars also, and the issue contained an article on electrets. The articles were along the lines of projects in the Amateur
Scientist in that you could recreate the work based upon the information in the articles. So I guess I need to find this publication or at least a
copy of the actual article itself rather than more accounts of it.
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IrC
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After thinking about this for a while it came to me that science today really does need to take a long hard look at itself. With this in mind here is
some music to listen to while you do.
http://www.theradicalremnant.com/layf.mp3
And why not a little more Uriah Heep:
http://www.theradicalremnant.com/sl.mp3
http://www.theradicalremnant.com/tmb.mp3
http://www.theradicalremnant.com/wizzard.mp3
Anyway, let us think about it. Try putting yourself in the mindset of a scientist during the victorian era. Religion controlled government and society
as a whole, and anyone going against this mindset would be unlikely to get into any peer reviewed journals, nor any research grants, such as they were
during this time.
Up until the 1930's or so, electricity was the new miracle lifegiver/cureall, until too much publicity of quackery abounded putting more or less an
end to such flights of fancy. Even as late as the 1950's, the new miracle cureall was radiation. However too many B movies combined with using nuclear
weapons, the cold war, three mile island, etc., removed the magical mindset to even this new form of energy. So in recoil science trended completely
away from all such lines of thought. I think the lack of this book being readily available stemmed from this fear of going against the grain of
society, not to mention the scientific community.
If you believe in evolution however surely you have read somewhere or other that life began as a lightning strike in some primordial soup in the
oceans right? If you can buy this then why is it such a stretch to believe in using batteries in a chemical soup to do likewise? Myself no I do not
believe in evolution (other than adaptive evolution where a species grows to meet physical challenges in it's changing world). If however you do
believe in these theories of evolution why then is it such a step to think that these old experiments could not contain some form of validity or even
some new scientific truth?
Something to think about at least. I really do believe that mindsets even today have prevented science from advancing as far as it might have. During
the victorian era it was no stretch to believe that anything was possible. Perhaps this loss has restrained ideas and inventions which we should have
already been the benefactors of (or not, frankenstein does come to mind).
[Edited on 9-1-2006 by IrC]
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neutrino
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I don’t know how exactly life began, but I do know that it required time. Lots and lots of time.
As far as I understand the subject, it happened something like this: Originally there were organic molecules floating around. After hundreds of
millions of years of random reactions and interactions, some came together to form single-celled life.
I’m sure that some lightning strikes, volcanic events, meteor impacts, and the like were responsible for creating these molecules, but there
wasn’t a magic spark that suddenly created a functioning cell out of simple molecules.
Also keep in mind that although life itself has been around for well over 3 billion years, multicelled life is only ~600 million years old. I doubt
that the magic jump from single to multicelled life could be recreated in a test tube in only a few days.
Now, why the hell are we talking about the origin of life in an NI<sub>3</sub> thread?
[Edited on 1-9-2006 by neutrino]
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JustMe
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I sure don't know why you've gone so far astray from the topic. And, regarding that topic I recall a story from my youth of a fine USE for the ammonia
adjunct of Nitrogen Tri-Iodide... as an extermination method for flies.
Huh? Yeah, landmines for flies. Back in the good old days when chemicals were more accessible and mad science easier I heard say of a student who
mixed up a batch of NI3 and while it was wet coated a bunch of small pieces of paper with it and either (can't remember) sprinkled sugar on the wet
mixture or used sugar water for the moisture, I think the former.
He then spread it out to dry, scattering the paper all about on a hard surface in an area where there were flies and waited for it to dry. The story
goes that the flies would be attracted to the sugar, land and BAM, each explode in a purple puff. Myth or not, I don't know, but it is kind of funny
in a sick way.
Oh, and the first day I went to college, while walking up the steps to my dorm room I noticed some dark reddish-black powder and instantly recognized
it (yes, I have made this stuff in small, repeat, small quantities). It wasn't much and quite spread out but a few minutes later there was a small
bang and a "WTF" from the person who stepped on it. Ah, those were the days. Madness, pure madness.
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IrC
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It fit. The quote at the top of page 3 comes from a post on page 1, so it seemed fitting to post it here otherwise no one would have known where the
quote came from. But it was not intended as a discussion, rather just a post of some links for people to go look at. Others kept asking questions so
on it went. Not worth starting a new thread anyway as I was just answering a question from page 1.
But on that subject I wonder if life does take millions of years. I imagine the "spark" is over in a moment, and the experiments did need to be run
from 1 to 2 years or more. Don't say anymore here though or it will confuse the explosive topic.
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woelen
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I'm not sure which is a more explosive topic.
Is it "NI3" or "origins of life" ???? I bet the latter.
But anyway, let's get back to the safe NI3  ...
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Nicodem
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Come on Woelen! Don't spoil the fun. This topic is interesting. Maybe not in its implication of creating these little Frankenstein monsters as a way
of creating life, but as an anecdote from the old days it is very interesting.
I suggest a moderator to cut out the part about Crosse's experiments and create a new thread safe from NI3 explosions, perhaps in Miscellaneous or
Whimsy.
This way we will be able to continue the discussion about these little fellows:
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
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IrC
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Not a bad idea and it would be easy as this whole page is about it except for justme's post, which could be the new top of page 3. Maybe they should
title it "Lost Science" or "Would the real Frankenstein please stand up"?
Or how about just plain old "Acarus electricus"?
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woelen
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Nicodem
Come on Woelen! Don't spoil the fun. This topic is interesting. |
Of course, I did not say this should not be discussed at all, but it is better to do it in another thread. Indeed, could one of the mods split off
this thread?
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franklyn
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Transactions of the London Electrical Society __ 1838 - 1843
This is not available from the Library of Congress , photocopied requests are
available from The British Library. I cannot give you a link since each request
made is individually tracked and times out. Go here first ->
http://catalogue.bl.uk/F/?func=file&file_name=login-bl-l...
next click [color=darkblue]Search the Integrated catalog[/color]
enter [color=darkblue]London Electrical Society[/color] into the search field ,
next to [color=darkblue]Search by[/color] click this -> |[color=darkblue]V[/color]| and from the drop down list
select [color=darkblue]Word from title[/color] , below this line next to [color=darkblue]Exact Phrase ?[/color]
click Yes , and Go
Much quicker and more comprehensive is www.worldcatlibraries.org
here is the link already searched ->
www.worldcatlibraries.org/search?qt=worldcat_org&q=Londo...
The first page gives all ten relevant hits. Fourth from top " Proceedings "
Lists " Linda Hall " , click [color=darkblue]Serial Publiction[/color] to search the citation.
( See attached image 0
You must enter your location into the [color=darkblue]Enter location information[/color] search field
of the first link that you click to obtain the repositories and proximity to you.
My initial skepticism still hiolds. If this were a manuscript written 500 years
before your citation it would be entirely expected to read some alchemical
yarn about spontaneous creation. By the mid 19th century such notions had
long since been discounted. The creature detailed is obviously a dust mite as
any entomologist would tell. Given the time 1840's before Pasteur when no one
yet had any idea of microscopic organisms , one can readily understand the
misunderstanding. Not quite an extremophile , mites , because of their short
life cycle and simple anatomy are resistent even to radiation that would
sterilize all other life forms.
In a related manner minute shrimp can be hermetically sealed into a water
filled glass bulb with algae and form a complete closed biotic system.
http://blizzard.rwic.und.edu/~nordlie/biosphere
[Edited on 4-9-2006 by franklyn]
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