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careysub
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Quote: Originally posted by TheChemiKid  | | Would it be possible for you to add phosphorus (red), or some of its compounds (eg. Phosphorus Tetroxide or any of the Halides)?
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Elemental phosphorus (and all hypophosphorous compounds) are now controlled substances. Phosphorus halides are fair game though.
"On October 17, 2001, DEA published a Final Rulemaking (66 FR 52670) in which DEA added red phosphorus, white phosphorus (also known as yellow
phosphorus) and hypophosphorous acid (and its salts) as List I chemicals."
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/fed_regs/rules/2003/fr0624...
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tomholm
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| Quote: Originally posted by TheChemiKid | | Would it be possible for you to add phosphorus (red), or some of its compounds (eg. Phosphorus Tetroxide or any of the Halides)?
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Some phosphorus can't be shipped via FedEx or UPS (e.g., Phosphorus trichloride). I'd have to take a closer look at some of the others. Also, I'm
not sure I can find a supplier for Phosphorus Tetroxide. How much of a demand for these?
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tomholm
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| Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob | | Oxalyl chloride is best refrigerated. but does fine at room temp for a long time. I would not try to ship it cold. I would double bag it and ship
in a metal can, but you likely have the shipping guides. Some of the amounts that you list are pretty large, like 500 ml thionyl chloride. I do
chemistry for a living and have not used 500 ml of it in 10 years time. So it might be nice to have a smaller option, as that is an example of a
chemical that will be hard to dispose of if you have too much. Same for 1 kg of AlCl3, it will absorb a lot of water before you can use that much of
it. But it sounds like a great effort to help home chemists. |
Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, I found that quantity selection is more limited in these chemicals. At this point, I prefer not to repackage
into smaller quantities, so I'm kind of stuck with the quantities offered. Maybe I'll find some additional options in the future.
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Loptr | | Quote: Originally posted by tomholm | | Quote: Originally posted by Burner | Tom,
How will some of the items (e.g. Oxalyl Chloride & Thionyl Chloride) be packaged? I would hope that these would be glass ampules, but I do not
know what facilities you might have to do that type of packaging. Any help would be appreciated!
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I expect glass bottles, but some of these are new chemicals for me, as well. I noticed the Oxalyl requires "refrigeration". |
A few of these items I would most likely repackage using safety coated glass bottles, such as those available from Qorpak, if they didn't already come
in something similar. I am not interested in glass breakage, especially with things such as thionyl chloride. No thank you. |
I don't think we should expect tomholm to provide packaging that is above and beyond that in which these compounds are normally supplied. I have used
thionyl chloride in a college OChem lab. It was in an ordinary looking brown glass bottle as received from the school's supplier.
I do agree wholeheartedly with the comments of Dr Bob about needing containers that are smaller, however.
[Edited on 6-8-2014 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Loptr
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| Quote: Originally posted by Magpie | | Quote: Originally posted by Loptr | | Quote: Originally posted by tomholm | | Quote: Originally posted by Burner | Tom,
How will some of the items (e.g. Oxalyl Chloride & Thionyl Chloride) be packaged? I would hope that these would be glass ampules, but I do not
know what facilities you might have to do that type of packaging. Any help would be appreciated!
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I expect glass bottles, but some of these are new chemicals for me, as well. I noticed the Oxalyl requires "refrigeration". |
A few of these items I would most likely repackage using safety coated glass bottles, such as those available from Qorpak, if they didn't already come
in something similar. I am not interested in glass breakage, especially with things such as thionyl chloride. No thank you. |
I don't think we should expect tomholm to provide packaging that is above and beyond that in which these compounds are normally supplied. I have used
thionyl chloride in a college OChem lab. It was in an ordinary looking brown glass bottle as received from the school's supplier.
I do agree wholeheartedly with the comments of Dr Bob about needing containers that are smaller, however.
[Edited on 6-8-2014 by Magpie] |
Magpie, I meant that I, myself, would repackage these items into more suitable containers. 
After rereading my statement, it can certainly be taken in a couple of different ways. I do not expect, nor would I ask, for Tom to go above and
beyond what he is already doing for us. I am very grateful.
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Loptr
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Phenylacetic acid is List 1, along with Phosphorus and Hypophosphorous acid salts, and yet I seem to recall that it is used by the perfume industry.
Thionyl Chloride is on the Special Surveillance list, along with 22 liter heating mantles lol (wikipedia). I recall seeing someone just recently
selling "amorphous" phosphorus on eBay in small amounts.
It was my assumption, and it is not like I have spent any considerable amount of time researching this, that Listed was very different from Scheduled,
and that Listed implied their intentional usage as part of a clandestine synthesis was illegal, and that only tighter auditing controls were placed on
them.
I need to do some more research on this, however, as everything I have stated above is purely my opinion.
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Loptr | [
Magpie, I meant that I, myself, would repackage these items into more suitable containers.
After rereading my statement, it can certainly be taken in a couple of different ways. I do not expect, nor would I ask, for Tom to go above and
beyond what he is already doing for us. I am very grateful. |
Yes, I did misunderstand you. Thanks for clearing this up. 
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Pyro
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tom,
is there a possibility that you can buy certain things in larger quantities, repackage them and sell like that?
in larger quantities things are a lot cheaper so you would make more profit and provide lower prices,
heres an example from aldrich for benzene.
156302-250ML 12.80
156302-2.5L 49.00
156302-25L 245.00
I'm pretty confident i could ell it for more than 20EUR/l, in fact if I had a company I would order it today.
PCl5 should be less of a problem for shipping as its solid
all above information is intellectual property of Pyro.  |
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tomholm
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| Quote: Originally posted by Pyro | tom,
is there a possibility that you can buy certain things in larger quantities, repackage them and sell like that?
in larger quantities things are a lot cheaper so you would make more profit and provide lower prices,
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Because most of these requested chemicals are pretty hazardous and I don't have any idea of demand, I am not prepared to handle and re-package these
chemicals. Perhaps it will make sense in the future, but for now, I don't intend to sell them in the quantities that I can purchase them.
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DJF90
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Thionyl chloride is restricted under the chemical weapons convention. You will need an end user declaration to purchase it, but other than that it
should be fine. Phosphorus and phosphorus chlorides come under the same scheduling, too.
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chemrox
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The American chemistry businesses have been taken over by lawyers. I suppose the root problem is DEA letters and phone calls exceeding their authority
but fearfulness and lack of spunk in the industry is ultimately to blame. Fortunately the Chinese new capitalism has stepped in to fill some of the
voids. Some of the better ones will work through paypal. Others will use escrow services. It's more work for sure. You may have to post your
desires on a web site such as alibaba. From there you will get offers to purchase metric tons or tonnes of HaOH or whatever. Then your work begins.
You have to make contacts with what seem to be likely prospects. Eventually, through persistence and a bit of intuition you will find you can
purchase fine chemicals and weird salts. Don't discount the homegrown specialty market. In pure frustration with the lawyers I started making
piperidones for self and a few others who are willing and able to pay the price. For some of these the devil is in the intermediates. It all makes me
think I should start a chem company..but no, you have to maintain stocks. Try to find a lawyer-free environment. Help Shakespeare...the bastards ruin
everything!
"When you let the dumbasses vote you end up with populism followed by autocracy and getting back is a bitch." Plato (sort of)
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Magpie
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| Quote: Originally posted by DJF90 | Thionyl chloride is restricted under the chemical weapons convention. You will need an end user declaration to purchase it, but other than that it
should be fine. Phosphorus and phosphorus chlorides come under the same scheduling, too.
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Hi DJF90. Would you happen to know if that requirement applies even to small quantities, ie, is there a size (ml or g) cut-off point?
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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TheChemiKid
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I would be intereted in about 100-200 grams.
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
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DJF90
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It should apply to any quantity. We have to fill out the relevant forms even for a 1L bottle
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tomholm
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Are you speaking of US laws? I know Australia has laws similar to what you are describing, but I'm not sure about US.
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TheChemiKid
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Also, how do you place a special order?
When the police come
\( * O * )/ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'̵͇̿̿з=༼ ▀̿̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿ ༽
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tomholm
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Just go to the web site, www.elementalscientific.net. Click on the "Special Order Chemicals" category to see the chemicals available. Complete the purchase the same way
you would any other purchase. You can also add other, non-special order items to your order.
Just remember, your order will not be processed until after the special order date listed.
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DieForelle
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There's plenty of subtle misinformation here. I'm sure I'll miss something because I only skimmed the thread.
Why are some chemicals becoming hard to find? Partly because nobody uses them anymore. The east coast research lab where I worked in the late 1990s
is gone. Work outsourced to another country. Academic labs still do what they do, but I suspect more and more chemical research is theoretical
instead of bench top. Some people have implied on other threads here that if they had a contact in an academic lab stuff would be easy to get: maybe
in some places it used to be that way, but not at most anymore. A friend getting a PhD at Berkeley told me that in his building at least, everything
ordered from Sigma gets several eyes on it and there's absolutely no way he could get something unrelated to his research. I wanted something
profoundly innocuous compared to what people are talking about here. OH BTW, a hobbyist chemical buying club...even if it had a business location and
corporate entity...even if it had a Chem. Degreed "sponsor" would be laughed out of town by the major lab suppliers like Sigma, Fisher, Spectrum, et
al. Maybe one of the 2nd degree resellers would at least talk to you. The fact is I've been interested in ordering hobbyist chemicals since I was in
college in the mid 1990s, and many, many suppliers have come & gone. It just isn't a very profitable undertaking...or the risks undermine the
profit severely.
Hazardous can certainly be shipped by USPS under exemption. I've gotten NaClO3 from fireworks suppliers that way. (Anyone from the EPA reading this
forum has already had a stroke by now, so I'll just admit I was curious to try it as a weed killer. I have several acres and battling weeds is a
constant annoyance. It used to be very popular in Europe. Turns out it kinda stinks, at least with our American weeds haha. I'll stick with roundup.
It was fun to do the gummi destruction experiment. I got most of my "blowing stuff up" urges out of my system in HS & college. I might have
related how we did the thermite reaction freshman year, and an old timer campus cop came along and said "what are you kids doing"...I think I was the
only one who had a twinge of anxiety as I was probably the only one who was sober. He accepted our explanation that we were just doing an experiment
- that was in the halcyon and innocent early 1990s. These days we would all have spent the weekend in jail and been expelled. We used our own
supplies, not stolen from the chem. department although a couple of us were chem majors.) It's just that many sellers, and certainly the big lab
suppliers, have no reason to hassle with it. If you're a university chem. department in the US, you have enough money with the tuition you're
charging to pay hazmat fees. AND...some sellers (not the one on the thread, I guess) will say Fedex refuses to ship Hazmat to residences. Again,
untrue. I've had FCC/USP grade HCl delivered to my house from a reseller. I had to sign for it of course, and the Fedex guy gave me a "what the hell
are you doing with it" look. But - knock on wood - no DEA agents have come knocking at my door, at that was back around 2011. Which is so utterly
stupid because anyone making drugs would just buy it at Home Depot...almost as concentrated. At the time I was experimenting with creating a
shelf-stable predigested protein product. Acid digestion turns out to be a complete waste of effort. The right enzymes can digest almost anything to
completion w/o pH modification.
DEA list chemicals are certainly not "controlled" in the same way hard drugs are. I once found a flavoring company perfectly willing to ship me a
large amount (500g) of piperonal. But I didn't, because the DEA audits all such purchases and will certainly feel obligated to check out why you
ordered a list I chemical. And make life difficult for you even if you do really want it for flavoring. SOME suppliers, like the major lab
suppliers, now prefer to check that you have a DEA license before selling you a list I chem, but they are not obligated to do so. (and yes, at the
time I was experimenting with flavorings and thinking of starting a flavoring company. As it turns out, nobody messes with the actual chemicals
themselves anymore, except maybe McCormick. If you want to start a retail flavoring company these days, you just open an account with Givaudon or
Bell...and I did with one of them...and tell them what flavors you want to market. They will send you a mix you can dissolve yourself with dilute
EtOH...once you get over the hurdle of a TTB repacking license. But I could never get myself into the marketing, which is what it's all about anyhow
these days. People buy for cute labels and slick websites, not for caring whether the ingredients are high quality or not.)
[Edited on 10-8-2014 by DieForelle]
[Edited on 10-8-2014 by DieForelle]
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DieForelle
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While I'm discussing this and I am still beset with insomnia...
there is the slightest, tiniest ray of hope in this era of insanity. (beside the helpful poster here who is willing to help people obtain the things
already mentioned; I wouldn't want them in my neighborhood much less in my home, but it's a free country, darnit)
I notice Pharmco is letting Science Company in Denver sell a handful of their more innocuous solvents, on the Sci. Co. website, under their label. I
was completely shocked. I guess they finally realized, geez, people are buying our stuff on ebay anyhow, why be so anal about it? I think for every
ray of good news in the amateur chem. supply newsfront, there are 10 bad ones. So don't get too excited. 
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by DieForelle | | OH BTW, a hobbyist chemical buying club...even if it had a business location and corporate entity...even if it had a Chem. Degreed "sponsor" would be
laughed out of town by the major lab suppliers like Sigma, Fisher, Spectrum, et al. Maybe one of the 2nd degree resellers would at least talk to you.
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Um, yeah, that's sort of exactly what we're already doing... We're talking to Elemental Scientific and
they're being really nice and doing everything they can to supply us with what we need. That was kind of the point of the majority of this thread.
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DieForelle
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"That was kind of the point of the majority of this thread. "
Well, somewhere else someone had acted like the primary lab suppliers would be cool with it. They would not.
It's <b>great</b> news elemental is helping you - believe me I have no objection to it - but I would call them a 2nd or 3rd tier supplier.
Not that it really matters. As you can see I complemented them in my post that came a split second before yours. As I've posted before, if someone
can get me SAFC (Sigma's food line) ingredients, under their label, do privately message me. Although I've kind of moved on from what I was doing a
couple years ago. I just came here tonight because I was bored!
[Edited on 10-8-2014 by DieForelle]
[Edited on 10-8-2014 by DieForelle]
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Magpie
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I believe that was in Pyro's post. He lives in Europe where for some reason(s) those primaries like Sigma and Fluka will sell to individuals
(some countries). Maybe it's because they don't have the DEA lurking over their shoulder, or the citizenry is not so litigious.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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mr.crow
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I'm glad to see the special order chemicals are live on the website
Once again, is it OK to ship to Canada? I see two options, Hazmat packaging and Hazmat packaging/shipping. The packaging only one sounds like normal
shipping with the special metal can inside.
Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and caldron bubble
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tomholm
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| Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow | I'm glad to see the special order chemicals are live on the website
Once again, is it OK to ship to Canada? I see two options, Hazmat packaging and Hazmat packaging/shipping. The packaging only one sounds like normal
shipping with the special metal can inside. |
Yes, we can ship most items to Canada. Pretty much the same shipping guidelines.
You are correct on shipping charges. Hazmat packaging/"Poison Pack" has the extra can/layers of packaging that allows it to be shipped without the
hazardous shipping charges (under an exemption). Cost is $17.50.
Hazardous packaging/shipping is the hazardous shipping charge. This too, often requires the additional packaging. Cost is $30.00.
We will try to combine as much as possible to save on charges. Unfortunately, very difficult to provide exact pricing until the entire order is
analyzed.
Thanks.
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Magpie
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I did some research to see what requirements apply to Chemical Weapons Convention schedule 3 chemicals in the US. The only requirements I could find
are shown here:
http://cfr.regstoday.com/15cfr714.aspx
Unless I have missed something it seems that the requirements apply only to manufacturers and import/export companies. And the cutoff-point is 30
tonnes!
Does anyone else know of any CWC requirements that would apply to Elemental Scientific or the US home chemist?
[Edited on 12-8-2014 by Magpie]
[Edited on 12-8-2014 by Magpie]
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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