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stoichiometric_steve
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i dont understand the point of this discussion. i made an offer to sell, not an offer to join in on useless bullshit shiznit arsefuck idiot
complaints. if you dont like the price, dont buy it! i'm not gonna make it any cheaper because any of you think it's worth less than stated. guess
what: 500g will be gone in a week.
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chief
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_Now_ I understand: Didn't get that the offer came from someone here ... 
==> _then_ it must be a reasonable price, of course ... 
Please forgive me, steve, and tell me when youre finished selling, so I don't ruin your busines by providing my cheaper version too soon ...
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
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Sorry, Steve, you're on the wrong forum then.
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chief
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I have looked up the synthesis:
==> Easy for me ...
Who wants some ?
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peach
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I'm pretty sure the material in question is watched by certain authorities. Or at best, it's presence not appreciated. Particularly in kilo
quantities.
I also expect those authorities may be quite upset to find it in some hands. So upset, they are likely to pursue any packaging or delivery receipts
bearing the name of the person who sent it. For instance, those on a hazmat receipt declaring it's contents as it's shipped to everywhere.
That or they'll simply demand the origin from the person holding it, via methods that should be fairly obvious given one of it's potential uses.
Maybe they'll even find out which website those individuals bought their kilo through.
I can think of one individual who used to routinely post a very similar chemical out and he provides a particularly striking example of some glaring
errors in ways of thinking about chemicals like these; which you yourselves are now demonstrating with your 'but it can also be used for x' mentality.
I know you don't like people discussing that kind of thing here, but I'm sure Steve knows what I'm talking about, given his post on
3-Phenyl-1-propanol.
Keep in mind what this striking individual was discussing in online forums and what he was posting out, in kilo quantities, whilst not asking for any
identification.
Consult Shulgin for those doubting it's uses in these areas. In fact, I believe Shulgin preferred it over the now most definitely watched alternative.
I find it a curious personality that would ship out kilos of this material to people without requesting any identification, given the uses they're
likely to put it to, and yet still be concerned with regards to the hazmat codes. Particularly so, given the amount of trouble he could get in that
has nothing to do with those codes.
Personally, I'd delete this thread. Sell the material locally to someone who's intentions you can be more sure of. You shouldn't have bought it, or
that much, in the first place.
If only there was a beginners Reagent forum, Nicodem could move the thread there... right Nikky?  So much of the thinking on this IS beginner level.
Here's some relevant reading for Steve in particular;
politechbot.com/docs/forrester.alba.dea.key.logger.070907.pdf
And boy am I feeling generous, something to watch as well;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxk8tRBp1mU
Be careful Steve
[Edited on 9-5-2010 by peach]
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entropy51
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For anyone who thinks LAH isn't watched, I know of a legitimate fine chemicals company that ordered much more LAH than they had ever ordered in the
past. They were paid a friendly social visit by extremely polite, extremely well-dressed gentlemen who went through chemist's notebooks, billing
records, and UPS shipping records. You are welcome to believe that this was an abberation, but I've heard that it happens every so often.
Most chemicals pose no problems, but a few do trigger an investigation.
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peach
Bon Vivant
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Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  | For anyone who thinks LAH isn't watched, I know of a legitimate fine chemicals company that ordered much more LAH than they had ever ordered in the
past. They were paid a friendly social visit by extremely polite, extremely well-dressed gentlemen who went through chemist's notebooks, billing
records, and UPS shipping records. You are welcome to believe that this was an abberation, but I've heard that it happens every so often.
Most chemicals pose no problems, but a few do trigger an investigation. |
Could be why the protagonist of our thread is currently trying to get rid of it all. Or worse, he's trying to make money out of it.
It may end up like those TV auction channels;
"Okay... wow... I mean just WOW. Wooo! I've never seen anything like this before guys! I... I... I'm just speechless. You guys are just not going to
be believe this... you're not only going to get your kilo... FOR FREE... yeah we all know about that, that's standard, everyone gives you that... but
you'll also get... get this... a fine ball point pen, moderately run down. AND! AND! 100 euros to run as fast as the wind and never mention my name
again"
Steve, if they track you from the supplier that gave you that quantity of material, they'll be very curious as to where it's all spontaneously
disappeared to.
If you only bought it recently, I would suggest you empty your house of anything related to the less well received uses of this chemical and start
trying to remember why it was you bought it in the first place. Now.
I will provide some advice that may be of interest. The authorities will assume the quantity of illegal drugs that have been produced on the basis of
how much material is missing from the containers or order sheets. So your best bet is to have the container sat on the kitchen table, full and sealed.
Not hidden and half empty.
If you've had it for years, it's very unlikely to happen. But shipping it out is still a stupid idea.
I'm trying to help you.
I'm honestly kind of wondering why after the response I got to my own thread. But anyway...
[Edited on 9-5-2010 by peach]
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JohnWW
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But WHAT illegal drug(s) can LiAlH4 (generally used to reduce carboxylic acids and ketones and aldehydes to alcohols), or similar hydride compounds
like LiH, NaH, CaH2, NaGaH4 (same use as LiAlH4 but even stronger), NaBH4 (reduces aldehydes and ketones to alcohols, but does not reduce double C=C
bonds, also used for hydroboration), be used to make, economically and efficiently? No-one on this thread seems to have any idea. They just might be
usable for one or two individual steps in the total syntheses of naturally-occurring drugs, which are always far more costly than extracting the
natural substances from plants.
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anotheronebitesthedust
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| Quote: | | So the price of 1 kg Li is 10 $ + the cost of 19 kWh ...==> Thereby maybe 12-15 $, depending on the tarif |
Plus the cost of Qualified Lab Technicians.
Plus the cost of Transportation and Hazmat Shipping.
Plus the cost of Taxes and Government Levies
Plus the cost of Equipment.
Plus the cost of Safety.
If it was so cheap to make then a legit supplier like Alfa wouldn't be charging $671/kg for 97% powder and $1142/kg for 97% pellets. Also even
purchasing from a cheap company in China isn't always economical. I recently imported Sodium Borohydride and my customs brokerage charges came to over
$1000.
| Quote: | | Anyone willing to buy the LiAlH4 for 250/kg? |
Not from you. I'd rather pay $671/kg from a reputable company.
| Quote: | | They were paid a friendly social visit by extremely polite, extremely well-dressed gentlemen who went through chemist's notebooks, billing records,
and UPS shipping records. |
I've been supplying chemicals to hobbyists for 15 years and when the Government
knocks on my door I simply don't answer. If they want to go through my records they'll need a search warrant for that.
| Quote: |
Or worse, he's trying to make money out of it.
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Duh, ya think? lol
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The authorities will assume the quantity of illegal drugs that have been produced on the basis of how much material is missing from the containers or
order sheets.
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Are you retarded? He's selling a legal chemical. It's not illegal to buy or sell. Period. You can post
nonsense all you like but this is the bottom line.
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I'm trying to help you.
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I'm sure if Steve wants advice from a 12 year old he can post a request at askkids.com
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chief
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Might "anotheronebitesinthedust" be a second account of "steve" ?
... trying to set up a mentality of spending 671 $ or even 1000 $ for a chemical if it comes from "reputable companies" or himself ?
@anotherone... : You paid 1000$ for NaBH4 ?? That stuff is made by the kilotons annually ...
==> besides it can be synthesized "by the action of NaH on powdered borosilicate glass", see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_borohydride
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len2
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| Quote: |
I've been supplying chemicals to hobbyists for 15 years and when the Government knocks on my door I simply don't answer.
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Thats a peach!
Come to think of it that is a far better fit. The only unanswered question is 'who's biting'?
[Edited on 9-5-2010 by len2]
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entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
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| Quote: Originally posted by JohnWW | | But WHAT illegal drug(s) can LiAlH4 (generally used to reduce carboxylic acids and ketones and aldehydes to alcohols), or similar hydride compounds
like LiH, NaH, CaH2, NaGaH4 (same use as LiAlH4 but even stronger), NaBH4 (reduces aldehydes and ketones to alcohols, but does not reduce double C=C
bonds, also used for hydroboration), be used to make, economically and efficiently? No-one on this thread seems to have any idea.
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Just because no one spells it out doesn't mean nobody knows. Consult Shulgin's book if you can't figure
it out on your own.
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peach
Bon Vivant
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| Quote: |
Are you retarded? He's selling a legal chemical. It's not illegal to buy or sell. Period. You can post nonsense all you like but this is the bottom
line. |
Maybe, but you clearly don't understand what you're talking about. "But, but, but... it's not illegal and I can use that kilo for legal things
officer!"
And given,
| Quote: | | I'm sure if Steve wants advice from a 12 year old he can post a request at askkids.com |
I won't be supplying the reasons for why you're wrong.
Simply, there are other people who've taken a similar attitude to these kinds of chemicals. Attitudes they thought were correct due to the length of
time they held them for. And posted their experiences on the internet.
And they're in jail.
You have a horrendously poor attitude towards people trying to provide some subtle help. Particularly so given that your "it's not illegal" statement
demonstrates you don't understand how the law works when it comes to things like this.
Your hands aren't illegal either. Going into a bank with one under your jacket is.
As for your chat about how long you've been doing it for, did that include the online, anonymous distribution of kilogram quantities of a chemical
that will almost certainly end up being used in Schedule 1 drug labs? If not, that warrant will be on it's way when you do.
Even if the answer is yes, the authorities won't put up with you forever. They specifically don't ask for a warrant immediately, instead they wait for
the correct moment to ask for the warrant; even if they know illegal activity is taking place in the meantime, that is within their remit. That
defining moment could be, for example, when they discover you've moved up to kilo quantities of the more questionable materials and that you're
shipping it 'everywhere' as opposed to just locally. The fact you've already been visited is the beginning of the story I posted a link to, a friendly
visit; first. If you're turning them away, they're going to get upset about that. They're likely to have upgraded you from someone they just wanted to
talk to, to a watched status. And you've probably lost your opportunity to explain what you're doing.
This forum contains some particularly worrying, some might even say hypercritical, personalities and morals. I'll be polite and excuse that as
exposure.
[Edited on 10-5-2010 by peach]
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chief
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Anyhow it might be interesting, how far one can go supplying chemicals ...
==> It certainly should not be punishable to just sell the substance ... , as long as tha age of the buyers is checked to be above 21 or 18 ...,
and as long as the chemicals are not specially forbidden to ber traded ...
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peach
Bon Vivant
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| Quote: Originally posted by chief | Anyhow it might be interesting, how far one can go supplying chemicals ...
==> It certainly should not be punishable to just sell the substance ... , as long as tha age of the buyers is checked to be above 21 or 18 ...,
and as long as the chemicals are not specially forbidden to ber traded ...
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Wrong.
If the authorities can demonstrate intent to supply a criminal activity, that makes you a co-conspirator, and equally worthy of punishment. Indeed, I
believe some of the suppliers have actually received a longer jail sentence than the people they were supplying.
Alrich would be considered a co-conspirator, and those responsible sent to jail, if the authorities could demonstrate they knew the potential for
illegal use of their products (which they most certainly do, as does Steve) and hadn't taken the appropriate, stringent precautions to prevent them
being used for such (hence the incredible level of caution they take in handing out accounts and chemicals, which Steve is not doing).
Given the nature of some of Steve's recent posts, he would be considered a co-conspirator, since he obviously knows what this chemical is likely to be
used for and is taking no precautions to prevent it being used for those purposes.
They'd be happier with him posting it to a 5 year old than the kind of people they'll suspect he knows it's going to.
READ THE LAW!
BEYOND WHICH CHEMICALS ARE LEGAL AND WHICH AREN'T!
If Steve is 'that other guy', he needs to immediately ditch the shitty attitude and start paying some attention.
Hopefully, he hasn't dared to suggest the illegal uses of that chemical anywhere on any forum, even under a different name. Now that would put him
loose footing!
Another interesting fact is that if they discover Steve has acquired that material by falsifying details, in any manner, he will also be accused of
diverting the course of justice; for that alone.
This thread is worse than the guys asking how to cook along. At least they're doing small scale work. This is large scale distribution.
[Edited on 10-5-2010 by peach]
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stoichiometric_steve
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To make a long story short, and to cut out the crap, where I COME FROM, LAH is completely legal to sell to private individuals at ANY given amount.
"Trouble" comes in if the buyer is not a local one, but there are couriers which will happily provide shipping for correctly labeled parcel.
And, one thing to remember for the assholes whose attempts in trying to make my offer look bad totally fail: The stock i am selling was the property
of a now deceased friend, may he rest in peace.
Show some respect and shut the fuck up
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peach
Bon Vivant
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| Quote: Originally posted by stoichiometric_steve | To make a long story short, and to cut out the crap, where I COME FROM, LAH is completely legal to sell to private individuals at ANY given amount.
"Trouble" comes in if the buyer is not a local one, but there are couriers which will happily provide shipping for correctly labeled parcel.
And, one thing to remember for the assholes whose attempts in trying to make my offer look bad totally fail: The stock i am selling was the property
of a now deceased friend, may he rest in peace.
Show some respect and shut the fuck up |
| Quote: |
Your hands aren't illegal either. Going into a bank with one under your jacket is. |
I hope your friend wasn't running 'one of those labs'. Along with investigating your own uses and reasons for possessing it, and those of the people
it's being supplied to, they'll be unhappy if they discover it originated at those sources. They will investigate the uses it was being put to or is
intended for all along it's path through the hands touching it, emphatically so; no one involved in such a chain is immune. If it came from such a
lab, you're not only in possession of goods bought through criminal activity, you're redistributing them. Another crime, all on it's own.
Regardless of your real intentions Steve, you know the probable uses of this chemical; particularly at the kilo level. And you're not being careful
enough of who you're supplying it to. Metaphorically, your perfectly legal hand is under your jacket. People get shot for having their hand under
their jacket.
Assumed intent can be far more dangerous than the reality.
[Edited on 10-5-2010 by peach]
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stoichiometric_steve
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Let me revise that, then:
Buyers must present valid ID, SSN, Passport, analysis of 24 hour collective urine void, children's diary and buttcrack swipe.
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peach
Bon Vivant
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| Quote: |
Buyers must present valid ID, SSN, Passport, analysis of 24 hour collective urine void, children's diary and buttcrack swipe. |
A valid VAT code would be far more effective and is one of the first, very simple to perform, checks the more careful suppliers engage in.
Yes, that'll severely limit the number of people who can buy it. But it's also one of the precautions they insist upon with chemicals like this; and
one of the few that'll come close to excusing you when it eventually hits the fan, which it probably will given the chemical, probable uses,
quantities and method of distribution involved.
Lacking VAT codes and all the other more solid forms of defense, I would strongly recommend you first have buyers send you a real world paper, dated,
signed declaration of their intentions; detailing their exact intended uses for the chemical. And I do mean exact in the sense of an intended
substrate and product, why they need to use your material and can't use another, what the product of the workup will be used for and preferably some
form of dated and signed proof that they actually have the substrate to hand, along with dated and signed proof of the quantity they're in possession
of (like an order sheet); not generalized mechanisms. The quantity of substrate they possess, or have been invoiced for, should match up to the
quantity of material they're purchasing. Excuses like 'a fragrance' for the intended result of the workup won't hold water in a court. Neither will
anything to do with 'novel medicines', as they'll undoubtedly be lacking any medically credible methods to biochemically test their results; ask for
dated and signed evidence if they claim they do have these to hand. Pay extreme attention to the analogs act, it's scope is routinely underestimated.
Also have them date and sign to an agreement that the chemical won't be used for anything remotely illegal, be used to circumnavigate the analog acts
or any other laws or be redistributed. Have them date and sign to the fact that they don't have any form of criminal record, particularly regarding
the diversion of the course of justice or the manufacture or handling of illegal drugs or analogs. Make sure they date and sign to a statement
confirming what they're telling you is fact. That they confirm they are of sound body and mind at the time of signing, and that they're not being
forced to purchase the material by anyone else. Have them confirm that they're legally capable of ordering the material where they live. These are all
tricks they'll use to place the blame back on yourself.
Go a step further and inform them of the legal implications of what they're purchasing, that simply ordering or having possession of the chemical may
be suspected of illegal activity, and suggest that they seek professional legal advice before placing an order. Have them confirm that they are aware
of the legal implications of ordering and possessing the chemical.
Personally, I'd put each statement on it's own line and have them date and sign each line so there can be no excuses about them having misread the
agreement.
I'd also ask for a dated and signed photocopy of their (in date) passport, yes. Some form of dated and signed proof of occupancy at the delivery
address would be good as well, like a recent gas bill. Make sure all the signatures are identical. People with genuinely legal intentions will be
happy to provide these details, and they're not hard to collect. It requires a minute or two at a photocopier, a few seconds with a pen, an envelope
and a stamp.
Make sure to file away these declarations, agreements and forms of evidence for use at a later date, you may find yourself depending on them to keep
you out of jail; regardless of your true intentions. I'd recommend holding onto them for a year or two.
In the eyes of the law, these checks are entirely your responsibility to be fulfilling given the probable uses of the chemical.
Immediately cease all forms of distribution and start again once you've typed up an agreement for them to sign and have the dated and signed copies,
including the forms of evidence and declarations of intent, in your hands.
The laws and personalities involved with chemicals like this have very little interest in fact. They treat it as an advantage. The fundations of their
functioning are based heavily on assumed intent.
There, can't say I'm not trying to help now! No point going to jail for the sake of some bits of paper.
I'm getting the feeling you're not taking this as seriously as it needs to be taken and that you don't understand the law as well as you think.
You're walking along a razor thin edge by being involved with this stuff in anyway, with a very long drop on either side. If you don't want to listen
to me, okay. To each their own. My words will be ringing in your ears if it ever comes to what it may.
I suspect at least some of the advice I've given in this thread may be news to more than a few of you; even some those who consider themselves above
my 'beginner' self. I routinely see some of you making equally incorrect assumptions about the legality of what you're doing; even the moderators.
Seemingly inert analogs of illegal chemicals or the assumption that something won't be, or will be difficult to, put to illegal use are not guaranteed
forms of immunity. Especially so when you have no genuine, legal excuse for being interested in them and no genuine means of testing your ideas. I
hope it's not below you to accept some of my advice, as you'd usually have to pay a lot for it; with the ultimate price being your freedom.
[Edited on 10-5-2010 by peach]
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a_bab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
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Mood: Angry !!!!!111111...2?!
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Some pople simply don't understand that even if it may be legal (actually not specifically forbiden) to posess/use a certain chem, selling it to a
country where this is a no no WILL put you in lots of trouble, especially in countries from the EU. This is even more so in the light of the recent
events. Even getting some silly chems like potassium nitrate which has no restrictions will ask for trouble, if the seller also sells iodine and RP.
Just read the stories.
That's what the Interpol is meant to do eventually: to bust your unlawfull ass no matter where you are.
Then, there's the moral issue of selling a chem that *may* have an illicit use. It may be just me, stupid me - I don't know, but I'd have lots of
problems selling things that could even remotely be used in a drug manufacturing activity.
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by peach | If the authorities can demonstrate intent to supply a criminal activity, that makes you a co-conspirator, and equally worthy of punishment. Indeed, I
believe some of the suppliers have actually received a longer jail sentence than the people they were supplying.
Alrich would be considered a co-conspirator, and those responsible sent to jail, if the authorities could demonstrate they knew the potential for
illegal use of their products (which they most certainly do, as does Steve) and hadn't taken the appropriate, stringent precautions to prevent them
being used for such (hence the incredible level of caution they take in handing out accounts and chemicals, which Steve is not doing).
|
There are (at least) two misconceptions about conspiracy as a legal term here. In most jurisdictions in the
USA, the standard for conspiracy requires both actual knowledge of a criminal plot and specific action toward it. "Intent to supply a criminal
activity" is not itself conspiracy; you actually have to act on that intent and do some supplying. For example, blowhard boasts made at a bar that,
say, "I could get you that" are not conspiracy until you act on getting them that. (Final delivery not required.)
The second misconception is that knowledge of "potential" is sufficient for conspiracy; it's not. You need actual knowledge of wrongdoing, not merely
the potential for it. To illustrate, gun sellers aren't liable for the crimes that could "potentially" be committed with the weapons they sell, much
less be part of a conspiracy. And both these arguments have been attempted in civil cases.
There are, however, other standards of care that can be made separately illegal in specific cases. Chemicals and drugs sometime receive such
treatment. Typically, though, the standard of "strict liability" doesn't apply (scheduled drugs being a notable exception). There's a standard of
"reckless disregard" that's sometime used. But whatever it is, it's not conspiracy as such, because that's already defined. Such statutes are, of
course, specific to the jurisdiction where passed. In the USA, there's a patchwork of them. Any statement about these can't be a blanket one, and
requires statutory citation for reasonable discussion.
And I'd be rather interest in the citation for the supposed case where a supplier got the larger sentence. And without the sentencing decision being
reported, it will be difficult to draw any general conclusion about it.
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zed
International Hazard
Posts: 2283
Registered: 6-9-2008
Location: Great State of Jefferson, City of Portland
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Mood: Semi-repentant Sith Lord
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Based on my college-chem-storeroom experiences, I can state that there are advantages to dealing with small suppliers. Mostly, lightning-fast
service, good products, and instant resolution of complaints.
Some of the posters here, seem to be legitimate chemical suppliers. They are the owners of small businesses, and they are quite cognizant of
pertinent regulations.
Lots of professional scientists and college professors on the board too. Legitimate purchasers.
No doubt, there are a few law enforcement folks and a few "Clandestine" chemists that are posting here also.
This endless wrangling over a seemingly legitimate offer to sell what is generally considered a legal material, is uncalled for.
If you have questions, U2U the seller and find out if you can legally purchase this material and have it shipped into your jurisdiction. Contact
local authorities for confirmation. Simple.
It's a big world, full of all kinds of different people. Some locales, allow the buying and selling of almost anything. Some people, regardless of
location, possess permits which allow them to purchase or sell, almost anything.
Me? I assume the seller knows what he is doing, and he will eschew illegality.
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stoichiometric_steve
National Hazard
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AMEN
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Panache
International Hazard
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Mood: Instead of being my deliverance, she had a resemblance to a Kat named Frankenstein
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i think we can whine back and forth for another couple of pages, come everyone make this simple post regarding sale of something very unremarkable
turn into the most ridiculous discussion yet witnessed on this fine forum.
Chief i think you overestimate the cost of Li
SS i think you are a plutonium seller
Peach i think Jesus is calling and wants you to kneel for awhile
LOL
And no offence intended.
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stoichiometric_steve
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I do not currently offer Plutonium, but who knows what time brings.
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