| Pages:
1
2
3
4
..
27 |
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
of course, this is how glycerol is obtained industrially. They use di/tryglycerides from vegetable fats, and boil it with NaOH, causing the ester
bonds to be hydrolysed. The resultant glycerol is distilled off, and thus obtained at relatively high purity...
|
|
|
Backyard Blaster
Harmless
Posts: 30
Registered: 4-10-2003
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: Neurotic
|
|
Pardon my lack of knowledge, but is vegetable glycerine the kind you would look for when making NG? I notice that's its readily available, at
least here in Canada.
|
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
i think is readily available almost worldwide, i don't see how can they take out of free market a so common substance!
Nevermore!
|
|
|
Backyard Blaster
Harmless
Posts: 30
Registered: 4-10-2003
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: Neurotic
|
|
Yeah that would seem kind of ridiculous, but the way things are getting legislated these days, it wouldn't surprise me.......
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
What I wanted to say is just that the Ca(OH)2 method is more convenient for laboratory preparation, since all you have to do after the reaction has
finished is pour off the glycerine.
|
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
well, as long as the glycerine will be available is cheaper to buy it. It will be already pure and dehydrated, comes in very convenient tanks, and has
lotsa of use, i used once to make soap!
Nevermore!
|
|
|
Mumbles
Hazard to Others
Posts: 436
Registered: 12-3-2003
Location: US
Member Is Offline
Mood: Procrastinating
|
|
If you use vegetable glycerin it should make any difference. The animal/plant/wherever else its made is just the source. Just make sure its dry.
Theres a method on Rhodium's site in the making Formic Acid from Oxalic Acid and Glycerin file.
|
|
|
inkognito
Harmless
Posts: 15
Registered: 13-10-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
guys , i need some help . i am going to make NG , in small amounts . about 7.5 grams . well i will try to make it with DavidThePyro's procedure ,
he uses
30mL 95% H2SO4 (sulfuric acid)
20g NH4NO3
5mL glycerol (pure glycerin)
well , he still didn't try to make it , so i want to ask you guys is this ok ? can i use smaller amounts of NH4NO3 and H2SO4 ???? becose i have
small amounts of this at home , and getting it in my place is realy hard .
|
|
|
Theoretic
National Hazard
Posts: 776
Registered: 17-6-2003
Location: London, the Land of Sun, Summer and Snow
Member Is Offline
Mood: eating the souls of dust mites
|
|
Not that I actualy used the method, first I came up with the idea, then I searched the net. Nothing definite, just bits and pieces and hints. A
minute ago I repeated the search - nothing definite again, but hints that the process goes.  
|
|
|
inkognito
Harmless
Posts: 15
Registered: 13-10-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
ok ,so this synth is ok. i wanted to be sure becose nitroglycerin isn't stuff to play with . thanks
|
|
|
inkognito
Harmless
Posts: 15
Registered: 13-10-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
im interested in EGD, can you give me some link where i can find a procedure . good that i checked sciencemadness before just before i wanted to make
NG. how is EG extracted from antifreeze ? did you make it ? i found some info on mr.cool's site , but there was still no procedure .
|
|
|
Iv4
Hazard to Others
Posts: 312
Registered: 28-5-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
NG is less sensitive than AP.I probably made less than 100 mls of NG in total but have enough experiance with AP to say that your fears CycloKnight
are unjustified.
Propylene glycol dintrate is similer to EGD and non toxic?That would be prety interesting.
I know this might sound gay and all but how does the NG reaction work?
|
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by CycloKnight
Ethylene Glycol dinitrate is used as a NG substitute in industry. Why all the fascination with NG? EGD is almost as powerful as nitroglycerin and much
more stable. The process for making it is similar to NG, but ethylene glycol (extracted from EG antifreeze) is required rather than glycerin.
But anyway, EGD is a good substitiute, better safe than dead.
|
Well EG is definitely widely used, but i don't see what could be the advantages compared to glycerine but its lower freezing point.
I see only disavantages: EGD is more volative and more toxic than glycerine.
The power is comparable being NG slightly more powerful, and the sensitivity is comparable too, being EGD very little less sensitive..
Is not the holy grail..
Nevermore!
|
|
|
trinitrotoluene
Hazard to Others
Posts: 142
Registered: 17-10-2002
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: paranoid
|
|
EGD gives worser headaches, and I thought it was weaker than NG. I think the synthesis of NG is more easy than EGD, ethylene glycol from antifreeze is
not aways pure and had to be purified by distillation verses glycerol you can buy 99.9% medical grade.
|
|
|
palpy
Harmless
Posts: 19
Registered: 19-7-2003
Location: Central Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: none
|
|
it makes sense, that EGDN is more powerful than NG - it's practically the same thing, only that EGDN has zero OB
BTW in my country antifreezes are sold that can be used straight as they are - they are the cheapest ones and should contain just EG and a little
(<0,5%) NaNO2 IIRC
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Please use paragraph breaks!
People don't like reading long rants, especially when they're so cluttered like yours.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
vulture
Forum Gatekeeper
Posts: 3330
Registered: 25-5-2002
Location: France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm not saying ranting isn't allowed.
It's just that such a big chunk of unformatted text is a pain in the ass to read and will deterr most people from reading it.
One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
|
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
i am absolutely against that post, first of all, if someone is experimenting with explosives then doesn't need that kinda advice, should already
know how dangerous they are. second, people won't listen about what you said, most won't even bother to read a so long post, since there
isn't much interesting to read.
Why people keep making NG instead of something else is its ease of manufacture and the extremely long experience behind that reaction. NG is well
knows at least from 100 years, good thing RDX, but when you can't get the extremely high conc acids? or when you can't get hexamine?
I think we don't need another hero to save us.
Better ppl to play with NG than with AP.
that's my point of view, if you have experience to share, or some ideas about more safe explosives, then welcome, noone of us is manufacturing
anything over here, we are discussing energetic materials, or should we open a ethic forum? 
[Edited on 26/10/2003 by Nevermore]
Nevermore!
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
civility, please
CycloKnight, you are correct that there's little novel or heavily chemistry-based in this discussion of nitroglycerin. According to my rule of
thumb the topic should've been closed at the beginning. However, the discussion is now entering the theoretical realm, so I'm reluctant to
close it.
A quick web search reveals that nitroglycerin is still used to make dynamite. Dyno Nobel at least still makes nitroglycerin dynamite. All the genuine
explosives literature I've read (as opposed to fringe stuff) indicates that nitroglycerin can be safely manufactured, stored, and used, both on a
lab scale and an industrial scale, if it is treated respectfully.
Nevermore, you say "noone of us is manufacturing anything over here" yet the very first post starting this thread is from you, saying that
you are going to make nitroglycerin for the first time! I don't encourage discussion of the practical side of making/using energetic materials,
but let's not go into total deception mode and pretend that every experiment is done by acquaintances or in dreams, a la the Hive.
Everybody who's going to experiment with explosives should have a healthy respect for the materials they're working with,
as well as good knowledge of their preparation and properties, but that doesn't mean that they will have that respect from the
get-go. A fool who can follow instructions and a Ph.D. chemist are equally capable of making simple nitric esters.
While I think CycloKnight's advice was a bit frothy around the mouth and hyperbolic, everyone who works with such materials needs to keep in mind
the potentially grave consequences of a single mishap or moment of carelessness.
Edit: I just considered - maybe Dyno Nobel describes dynamites as "nitroglycerin dynamite" even if they contain EGDN instead of actual
nitroglycerin, so long as they have similar performance. CycloKnight, do you have some references about the non-use of NG in modern dynamites?
[Edited on 10-26-2003 by Polverone]
|
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
@Polverone:
I just had an sudden idea of self protect so i thought better to write down i never manufactured anything. I absolutely agree that nitro ester can be
performed by anyone that is able to get reagents and follow the instruction of any book or online website he can find. And i agree that everyone
should respect what is working with, since before working with explosives, we are working with highly concentrated acids, toxic fumes and so on..For
what i know those kinda advices bring the ppl in thinking that IT IS COOL to make, since explosives are cool for definition (i can't negate
indeed, still cool for my age), and most of the people start manufacturing when they don't even have idea of what a reaction is..beside that, i
didn't want to flush in the toilet the NG after 100 years of duty, and for what i know, is still highly appreciated.
@cycloknight:
from your word i feel like you had an accident and wish to try to save someone from having the same, or maybe you know someone that had an accident, i
think i would like to know what happened, it could be useful to avoid the same situation, if not, then sorry maybe i was wrong.
Is good you wanna keep people away from nitro, but be realistic, they won't stay away, i would rather give out tons of hints to ensure safety,
since i already know they will try to make, beside that, considering which other are so easy to manufacture, as i said before, i prefer if people try
to make Ng than Ap or HMTD, i can't compare them, but i saw main charges made with Ap and ammonium nitrate, and i wondered how come there are
still people that do those things whatever so many advices have been given out, maybe because accidents always happens to others (or for ease of
manufacturing)..well, id prefer them to make NG, or EGDN than Ap, if you are sure that the egdn is more safe than ng and should be encouraged, then
its good, but in my idea the difference is small, and being realistic is not worth the more toxic product. I can say that the folks that don't
know what they are doing will try anyway, for sure better they try with something easy that doesn't involve too toxic fumes and so on, for sure
better they try with something more safe, but the reality is that they try with ap, the worst ever chance. It is advisable to gelatinize NG, but
before doing it is needed to make Ng no? even if i still prefer to absorb it somewhere than gelatinize, it makes me feel safer, than mixing with Nc
and warming it..
I case you find a patent about better gelatinization, i would like to know, i don't feel too happy of having liquid pure NG, neither of knowing
is rather sensitive..
Nevermore!
|
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
I am sorry for the problems you are experiencing, i am graduating in engineering too, nuclear, i am using in handling dangerous things, but not
explosives. I never ever work with more than .5 grams of primaries, or 10 grams of main charges, no matter what, if i have to try something bigger i
make many smaller batches and then strip together ON SITU.
Blackpowder burned heavily some friend that were trying to make it, they were grinding it with a manual coffee grinder, when got on fire and
splattered on their face. not good either, if not caring about the simply safe measurements..accidents are more likely to happen with primaries, since
for their nature they are more sensitive..Ng is not that monster, i think your dad friend could be killed if using rdx or whatever powerful
explosive..
Anyway kinepack is great! if only i could get nitromethane..
for removing spent acids, first of all is good to wash a few times, 2 should be enough, then wash with a bicarbonate solution, caring that no
bicarbonate is left undissolved, keep wash till bubbling, then test with litmus, if neutral or little basic, wash with water, if still acidic, keep
washing with bicarbonate. Some time i thought it was better to use a very diluite ammonia solution, but i think it will reach the same point,
neutrality, is what we want.
[Edited on 27/10/2003 by Nevermore]
Nevermore!
|
|
|
blip
Hazard to Others
Posts: 133
Registered: 16-3-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: absorbed
|
|
It's interesting that you handled hazardous materials with your left hand, I would've thought it would create more spills. I don't
make explosives (seriously), but if I did I would use many safety precautions. For example, I normally wear three layers of different types of gloves
just in case. You are not going unheard, I often listen to those experienced because I know they probably wouldn't lie. My chem teacher was
pretty paranoid, but she <i>did</i> have some nasty stuff lying around and many mischevious students had probably gone overlooked. I
actually knew one of them and his friend could have easily died from drinking a lead compound (the idiot said it looked like egg yolk, so it must not
be that bad ).
| Quote: |
...though I’m left with permanent tinnitus (non-stop, persistent ringing of the ears) and it drives me nuts to this day, and there’s no cure.
|
I have it too, maybe I was born with it, I honestly don't know. It gets worse when I listen to loud music, but I learned early how to control
the volume. I am also partially deaf in my left ear due to a non-pyro related accident (poorly made ear product, let's say). When I'm
older, however, I'll likely have some of the best hearing in that ear around after the damage clears up (blockage).
|
|
|
Iv4
Hazard to Others
Posts: 312
Registered: 28-5-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I understand your point Cyclo and its a noble thing to do  but seriosly of al
the thousands of people who work with AP only a few have had accidents and like you said they deserved it.Stupid things like keeping large amounts of
AP in one place and such is just asking for trouble.
I'm not into 400 gram batches and all but usually work in the 30 gram range(drying time...).Its always used in amounts well under 2 grams like in
salutes and such.
On a sidenote when mixed with ammonium nitrate AP tends to behave very diferently above 1:1 APAN by weight it needs a shock in order to detonate.
Anyways I was wondering if glycerin can form an explosive peroxide.
|
|
|
Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
Registered: 19-5-2002
Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
Member Is Offline
Mood: Waiting for spring
|
|
| Quote: | | of al the thousands of people who work with AP only a few have had accidents and like you said they deserved it |
I think you underestimate the number of people who've had accidents with acetone peroxides. When I was a freshman in high school, before
information on peroxides was widely available through the internet, I was part of a circle of people who learned to make acetone peroxide, from a
hand-typed "recipe" handed down by someone older. Of the 6 people I knew who personally made it, 3 had accidents at one point or another.
Mine was the least serious; I just suffered some broken lab equipment. One had his hand bruised through from side to side and the skin lightly torn.
The last had his hand mangled so badly that what remained had to be amputated at the wrist. I think I behaved the most cautiously of anyone I knew
when using it, but with hindsight I can see situations where I could've become Stumpy. I shudder at the thought.
If you read the threads about accidents that sometimes come up on the E&W Forum or other electronic discussion forums, you'll see that a lot
of people suffer minor (non-permanently-disabling) accidents that they never mention online except in those accident threads. People who make a pound
of acetone peroxide at a time might be rendered incapable of reporting back if they have an accident.
Minor medical emergencies - even where "minor" is the loss of an eye or some fingers - rarely make the news. It's even rarer for the
injury/death to be so spectacular that it's widely reported. If you just go by what you can glean from electronic news sources, large-circulation
newspapers, or TV news, you'll probably think amateur pyro injuries are pretty rare. I think they're actually frighteningly common, relative
to the population of active amateur pyros.
People may "deserve" their injuries in the sense that you can't fool nature, and hazardous behavior leads to accidents. They don't
necessarily "deserve" them in the sense of being blatantly reckless or lacking in moral fiber. The individual who lost his hand is one of
the brightest people I've ever known. It only took one poor choice to lead to months of physical therapy and nightmares, and being one-handed for
the rest of his life. With hindsight, what he did was reckless and he "deserved" what happened. Right now maybe your
behavior doesn't seem reckless at all. You "only" make 30 grams of acetone peroxide at a time, not the hundreds of grams that reckless
people make. That 30 grams would be quite enough to cost you a hand, if it detonated at an inopportune moment. The two grams that go in a
"salute" could deprive you of a finger or two.
|
|
|
Nevermore
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 3-5-2003
Location: China at the moment
Member Is Offline
Mood: shopping businessman
|
|
i agree about RDX but not about EGDN.
If you make NG or EGDN you will get very similar products, both in power than in sensitivity, being EGDN very safe is just another hoax.
Nevermore!
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4
..
27 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
