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Sulaiman
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nice one !
If only I could remember all these useful tips,
someone (else, not me, I'm lazy) should index all of these gems.
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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RogueRose
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Quote: Originally posted by Melgar  | | I've found that heating a bicarbonate solution to near water's boiling point will evolve CO2 quite readily, and if you need an aqueous solution
anyway, this is more convenient than heating the dry powder. |
That's good to know! I'll have to try that and see what happens. I once baked at 450F for like 5 hours (in winter so didn't matter) and when I pulled
it out it still looked and "flowed"/packed just like normal bicarb so I didn't think anything happened.
If you heat it to 212-250 and stir with a spoon the powder looks like a liquid and emits bubbles of gas and I guess steam maybe. I just took some
video of this and it is pretty neat.
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Ursa
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| Quote: Originally posted by Plutonium404 | | Quote: Originally posted by NedsHead | Borax
Acute toxicity
Ingestion:
Low acute oral toxicity; LD
50
in rats is 4,500 to 5,000
mg/kg of body weight.
The "many people who have died from it" must have really been committed |
| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar | | Quote: Originally posted by Plutonium404 | | Be careful and make sure you wash out the borax really well. Borax is really really toxic by ingestion and many people have died from it.
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No it isn't, and I'm not aware of a single person that has died from acidental borax consumption. Sorry dude, but you deserve a public shaming for
spreading false information. Alright, now get into the stocks... |
This was a pretty big case in China just two years ago. A family of five was making stuffed steam buns and accidently use borax instead of baking soda
to make the dough rise. 3 of the 5 people died, 1 was in serious condition, and the other made it out OK after having their stomach pumped.
After this incident, the toxicity of borax and boric acid related compounds was retested, and it was found 1-3 grams causes severe toxic effects in
adults, less than 15 grams can cause death, and the lethal dose for infants to be about 1.5 grams.
Here are the sources in case you still don't believe me (both are in Chinese, but a good browser translator should allow you to get the gist):
http://news.sohu.com/20150222/n409118861.shtml
http://qingdao.iqilu.com/jiankang/jkzx/2015/0225/2316213.shtml |
Whoops I accidentaly mixed up my borax with my baking soda. Seriously though, residually, I don't think 1.5 grams would be left in a baby bottle.
Vivo!
Ens causa sui
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Ursa
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| Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose | | Quote: Originally posted by Melgar | | I've found that heating a bicarbonate solution to near water's boiling point will evolve CO2 quite readily, and if you need an aqueous solution
anyway, this is more convenient than heating the dry powder. |
That's good to know! I'll have to try that and see what happens. I once baked at 450F for like 5 hours (in winter so didn't matter) and when I pulled
it out it still looked and "flowed"/packed just like normal bicarb so I didn't think anything happened.
If you heat it to 212-250 and stir with a spoon the powder looks like a liquid and emits bubbles of gas and I guess steam maybe. I just took some
video of this and it is pretty neat. |
You mind posting this video? Sounds pretty interesting.
Vivo!
Ens causa sui
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RogueRose
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| Quote: Originally posted by Ursa | | Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose | | Quote: Originally posted by Melgar | | I've found that heating a bicarbonate solution to near water's boiling point will evolve CO2 quite readily, and if you need an aqueous solution
anyway, this is more convenient than heating the dry powder. |
That's good to know! I'll have to try that and see what happens. I once baked at 450F for like 5 hours (in winter so didn't matter) and when I pulled
it out it still looked and "flowed"/packed just like normal bicarb so I didn't think anything happened.
If you heat it to 212-250 and stir with a spoon the powder looks like a liquid and emits bubbles of gas and I guess steam maybe. I just took some
video of this and it is pretty neat. |
You mind posting this video? Sounds pretty interesting. |
Yeah when I get it edited. It's 2.5Gb - somehow it recorded in super high def or something b/c it was like 5 mins buy my cell phone made it a huge
file.
I re-recorded at lower definition so here is a short clip of what it looks like when it is hot (probably 250-300F) on a cast iron pan (best material
I've found, DON'T user stainless steel)
Bicarb turning into sodium carbonate - bubbly - water like texture
Video 2 - Better quality - higher resolution - different video though..
[Edited on 7-3-2017 by RogueRose]
[Edited on 7-3-2017 by RogueRose]
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pneumatician
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Mood: ■■■■■■■■■■ INRI ■■■■■■■■■■ ** Igne Natura Renovatur Integra **
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oh no!!! more human mental excrements!!! 
https://www.nexusmagazine.com/component/search/?searchword=b...
http://www.health-science-spirit.com/borax.htm
https://www.earthclinic.com/remedies/borax3.html
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar |
Haha, wow, you just have no clue how wrong you are, do you? See, insects groom themselves with saliva from their mouths, and they have this waxy
stuff all over their shells that prevents water loss. Turns out, boric acid in that saliva makes the waxy stuff stop doing its job, and the insect
dies of dehydration. The boric acid doesn't have to be in the saliva, but it helps. Boric acid also has other toxic effects, but the thing
with the waxy layer is the main one, since they don't have to eat it for it to kill them:
http://www.beyondpesticides.org/assets/media/documents/infos...
I like how you think that any silly thought that enters your head is "the real world." Well, in the REAL real world, borax and boric acid are both
about as toxic to humans as good ol' sodium chloride, and boron is a necessary trace mineral. Some people come to the ER on occasion, freaking out
after either they or their kid swallowed some boric-acid-based cockroach killer. They often have symptoms, which are almost certainly due to the
placebo effect, since a study comparing reported effects of exposure to different pesticides showed that boric acid had the fewest. Or borax. Either
way, you've been convicted of attempting to spread false information, so to the pillories with you!
If you were merely confused about the meaning of "acute toxicity", you may attempt an appeal based on ignorance. |
I take it you didn't actually read the article you cited.
Here's what it says
"As an insecticide, boric acid acts as a “stomach poison”
for ants, cockroaches, silverfish and termites, and is most
commonly used in a bait formulation containing a feeding attractant or as a dry powder. The powder can be injected
into cracks and crevices, where it forms a fine layer of dust.
Insects travel through the powder, which adheres to their
legs. When the insects groom themselves, they ingest the
poison, which causes death due to starvation and dehydration
3-10 days later. "
The poison's path is from their skins to their guts- not the other way round.
There's also the galloping insanity of comparing the toxicity of borates to table salt.
Yep, they are roughly equally toxic (on an acute w/w basis)
However, you need to have salt in your house, but you don't need to have borax there.
It's a risk/benefit thing.
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Texium
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Gotta love how this argument about borax rages on and yet nobody has recognized Metacelsus's post which is by far the most well-presented and
authoritative evidence in the thread.
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Texium
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Thread Moved
18-3-2017 at 12:26 |
JJay
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| Quote: Originally posted by zts16 | | Gotta love how this argument about borax rages on and yet nobody has recognized Metacelsus's post which is by far the most well-presented and
authoritative evidence in the thread. |
Metacelsus makes some great posts.
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by RogueRose | That's good to know! I'll have to try that and see what happens. I once baked at 450F for like 5 hours (in winter so didn't matter) and when I pulled
it out it still looked and "flowed"/packed just like normal bicarb so I didn't think anything happened.
If you heat it to 212-250 and stir with a spoon the powder looks like a liquid and emits bubbles of gas and I guess steam maybe. I just took some
video of this and it is pretty neat. |
Yep. 2 NaHCO3 + heat = 1 Na2CO3 + CO2 + H2O
The aqueous reaction starts at maybe 50C, since liquid-phase reactions have lower activation energy, and gets faster the higher you go above that.
You can tell it's working though, because of the bubbles, because the solubility increases, and because the crystals look different when they fall out
of solution after it cools down again.
| Quote: Originally posted by zts16 | | Gotta love how this argument about borax rages on and yet nobody has recognized Metacelsus's post which is by far the most well-presented and
authoritative evidence in the thread. |
I did, and probably should have thanked him for posting all those references that reinforced what I'd been saying, but I was trying not to spend too
much time off-topic. In that instance, the thing to do would seem to be to correct the misinformation, then get back on topic, no?
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clearly_not_atara
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You can make sodium hydroxide from Na2CO3 and lime (CaO*nH2O). A bit of a silly reaction if you can buy NaOH, but lime is somewhat more common than
NaOH, since it is used to raise soil pH among other things. Lime is also subject to fewer regulations and cheaper in bulk.
[Edited on 27-3-2017 by clearly_not_atara]
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by clearly_not_atara | You can make sodium hydroxide from Na2CO3 and lime (CaO*nH2O). A bit of a silly reaction if you can buy NaOH, but lime is somewhat more common than
NaOH, since it is used to raise soil pH among other things. Lime is also subject to fewer regulations and cheaper in bulk.
[Edited on 27-3-2017 by clearly_not_atara] |
Typically "lime" refers to CaCO3, "hydrated lime" refers to Ca(OH)2, and "quicklime" refers to "CaO". Calcium hydroxide isn't just a hydrate of CaO
though, it's quite different chemically, and has to be heated to 500C+ to drive off the water, indicating that there's a chemical change taking place,
not just a transition from a hydrated to anhydrous form. Of course we still have this language that implies otherwise, like when we refer to sugar
and starch as "carbohydrates" implying they're hydrates of carbon. Because they were named back when all we knew about them was that heating them
would result in water and carbon forming.
In this case, either quicklime or hydrated lime would work, I'm guessing, because it would be an aqueous solution, and CaO would turn into Ca(OH)2 as
soon as it reacted with water.
[Edited on 3/27/17 by Melgar]
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by Melgar | Yep. 2 NaHCO3 + heat = 1 Na2CO3 + CO2 + H2O
The aqueous reaction starts at maybe 50C, since liquid-phase reactions have lower activation energy, and gets faster the higher you go above that.
You can tell it's working though, because of the bubbles, because the solubility increases, and because the crystals look different when they fall out
of solution after it cools down again.
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On a side note, it makes a nice experiment if you want to show chemistry to kids.
"You see that boiling water ? Well, it's not boiling"
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Melgar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber |
On a side note, it makes a nice experiment if you want to show chemistry to kids.
"You see that boiling water ? Well, it's not boiling" |
The trouble is that it looks more like seltzer water or soda when that's happening, and what kid hasn't seen that?
If I want to impress kids, I get out the old spray bottle with a methanolic solution of boric acid. That and a lighter. Cologne/perfume bottles make
a nice little green fireball that can hold their attention for about a minute. Ones that have a handle pump spray usually make too big of a green
fireball, and their parents don't trust me. The ones from old whiteboard cleaning spray bottles, where you push the top down to spray, are a good
compromise.
Crap, this thread has come back around to boric acid again.
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zed
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Ummm. Some older books, recommend Na2CO3 paste, as a paint remover. The CO2 out-gasses over time, and the NaOH...softens the paint.
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