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obsessed_chemist
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^^^ I raced over here after reading about this at RogueSci, thinking I should get the word out. I predicted this would happen. Not with the 2.2%
tinture though! I was surprised, though, that elemental iodine in the form of water-purification crystals had been so readily available without
restriction until recently.
Man, these three-letter agencies are way out of bounds already, but this! This takes the cake! (so far...)
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undead_alchemist
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Chemist514
Woelen : I figured id be a "lab rat" for this (I'm new to the hobby and pretty much just play with a chemistry set with my kids, if you see any of my
back posts thats pretty obvious.) as im still purchasing the chems in my chemistry sets list of contents i came to one they said i couldnt buy...
potassium permanganate
On further inquire it turned out that it would be ok if i signed a form.. not much on it really, other then exactly what im doing with the chem (ie:
reactant's, mechanism, products etc) AND a huge bunch of legal mumbo jumbo threatening me with masive legal assult if i RESELL it. Id say 80% of it
was making sure it never leaves your hands.
That was in Canada and from a medium size chemical supplier, its been about 4-5 months no phone calls or black helicoptors yet. :>
Hope its some info you can use.
I need a less impressive nickname.. as i have no skillz.
gotta make time for that later, all the best people! |
Yes, I know its a pain with some chemicals here in Canada.
but you could always go all the way and take out a Health Canada permit. then you could resell it if you wanted. but anyone who whats to by it, has to
follow the same rules.
Still getting a Criminal background check just to buy some common chemicals is a bit much.
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Sauron
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Totally the fault of the asshole meth cooks.
But as far as I know, outside of north America no one with a badge gives a damn about iodine, and there are no need for all those articles about how
to get I2 out of Povidone or tincture.
Is iodine restricted in EU?
It is not in Thailand. I have a couple Kg.
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not_important
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Australia has regs on iodine and iodides, I believe.
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Sauron
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True but things are weird on the wrong side of the equator. I mean, water goes down the drain the wrong way, and all.
I think they are aping the US in this regard.
Does the UK restrict I2? Since they do not restrict red P, I would doubt it. And there is a lot more reason to do that than merely one little strategy
of meth cookery. Whereas there is no other legitimate government interest in I2 that I am aware of.
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chemkid
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Is iodine proposed to go on list I or II? What lists are theese are they the ones found on this link:
http://
If not can someone lead me in the right direction?
I frustrated, confused and rather concerned,
Chemkid
[Edited on 28-8-2007 by chemkid]
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Twospoons
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Ha. The farmstore down the road from me has 2.5% iodine tincture for sale in 1 litre bottles. I guess there's no restrictions in NZ.
Helicopter: "helico" -> spiral, "pter" -> with wings
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woelen
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sauron
Is iodine restricted in EU?
It is not in Thailand. I have a couple Kg. |
Not that I know of. In the Netherlands it isn't and I think this is the same in Germany, Belgium and the UK.
Red P, white P, and hypophosphites also are not restricted. White P is restricted in another sense, being a compound, which may not be shipped with
regular post, but this has nothing to do with drugs, but with safe transportation.
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Sauron
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Perfectly sensible.
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YT2095
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as Woelen said, these aren`t restricted in the UK either.
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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Sauron
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And that is the basis for my statement that the inspiration for Oz's restrictions comes from USA, not UK.
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pantone159
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chemkid
Is iodine proposed to go on list I or II?
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I2 has been List II, and is about to be List I.
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Sauron
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As chemkid ought to have surmised from the title of this thread...
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Antwain
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Stupid, stupid government agencies. If I ever need more iodine I will go down to the coast for a swim, and haul back 30kg of seaweed 
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Sauron
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Blame the meth cooks. Who else? They brought this doom on you guys.
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Polverone
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"The meth cooks made me do it" isn't much more convincing than "the devil made me do it." Responsibility for the merits and flaws of policies rests
squarely on the shoulders of the politicians and bureaucrats who create and sustain them.
The key to the numerous small scale meth cooks that have Americans in a tizzy is pseudoephedrine or ephedrine (primarily pseudoephedrine) from OTC
sources. Trying to crack down on all the incidental stuff (iodine, phosphorus, lithium, sodium, ammonia, ether...) has little effect while the key
alkaloids are readily available. I'm less than thrilled to see it, but the law is changing availability of pseudoephedrine from OTC meds and that will
probably dent the numbers of "cooks" operating, because most don't have the knowledge/ability/patience to start from anything but cold pills.
Strict pseudoephedrine controls inconvenience to me when I have a runny nose, but should be a boon to me as an amateur chemist, since the DEA could
dump its patchwork of controls on incidental materials like phosphorus and ammonia once the alkaloids are under control. Instead they continue to
expand the patchwork. The horse left the barn so long ago that it's about to die of old age, and the DEA is still coming up with novel and
inconvenient ways to nail the door shut.
In an expression of bureaucratic thermodynamics, they will also never spontaneously de-regulate what has once been regulated, regardless of its
relevance to the current drug landscape in America. It's been 20+ years since quaaludes enjoyed recreational popularity but anthranilic acid is still
List I and likely to stay that way forever. Likewise, decades after the next drug menace has overshadowed meth, I expect phosphorus and iodine
regulations will be inconveniencing chemists.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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LSD25
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You already trashed one thread with your bickering with Sauron. Don't do it again here.
[Edited on 2-22-2008 by Polverone]
You ARE right of course (of course you are, your forum ).
I have systematically removed any and all material for which I am responsible which has the capacity to irritate or upset our resident, delicate
genius. Please feel free to report any backsliding by myself on this promise and also PM me if any more material needs to be removed.
[Edited on 24-2-2008 by LSD25]
Whhhoooppps, that sure didn't work
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quicksilver
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The history of controls in response to cooking drugs actually goes back to the very early 1980's. There was a guy who cooked a synthetic opioid that
resulted in a Parkinson's like disorder. Some of you remember that far back.
However, I don't believe that it's intellectually honest to believe in the control of one object over another.
If the element of the objection to such legislation is that the chemical doesn't jump off the table and enter your system; you have voluntary control
over taking or not taking a drug. That drugs are simply chemicals and that the responsibility of their use rests with the individual...then an
explosive or gun is simply an object as well. And that firearm cannot do anyone any harm without the volitional actions of an individual. Society's
direction toward the "object" a safe way of attempting to legislate morality and behaviour.
However, if someone sells a weapon that blows it's chamber and slams metal slivers in the shooter's eye, that is a bit of a problem. If the narcotics
result in a life-long disability....even after the high (& urge to get high) is long gone we have an entirely different set of issues.
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MagicJigPipe
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I just ran a bunch of errands and made a point to look for iodine tincture on the shelves. It's all gone. Just gone. I know it was around at least
a few months ago. Not one place I went to (grocery store, pharmacy) still had it.
I suppose when people learned I2 was list 1 they assumed that all tincture is illegal. You know how people are. Regulated=illegal=morally wrong in
their eyes.
I used to use tincture for I2 until I realized there were easier ways. I just... I'm at a loss for words. This is just dumb.
Perhaps there was a "meth scare" article in the local paper this time similar to the one that made a local hardware store clerk think toluene was
illegal. That's all it takes people. Chemicals don't even have to be regulated or illegal anymore for them to virtually disappear.
[Edited on 23-2-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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JustMe
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Ah yes, not a bottle to be found in a grocery or pharmacy anywhere. I know because my physician wanted me to do a test that (in part) involved simply
painting some on my skin... and I had to SPECIAL ORDER the plain old tincture of Iodine and, whereas special orders normally are an overnight affair,
this took a week to get!
Here is a link to the regulation (from a site which sells Lugol's solution... at least for the moment!)...
http://jcrows.com/iodinealert.html
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JohnWW
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You could make your own iodine, if you can get NaI or KI, by reacting that with household hypochlorite bleach. At least pharmacies have NaI and/or KI,
if not also farm supply shops and commercial chemical suppliers. You can claim that you want to use it to iodize common culinary table salt, or a
NaCl-KCl mixture used to reduce sodium intake, which has been supplied uniodized, as a goitre preventative.
[Edited on 24-2-08 by JohnWW]
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JustMe
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Well, if I had to make my own elemental Iodine in TODAY'S crazy environment (in which reagents are hard to come by and y'gotta make do), I would see
about extracting Manganese Dioxide from batteries (rinsing it??) and combining the NaI or KI with it and battery (sulfuric) acid. Nuthin' like doing
it the old fashioned way, eh?
Back in the day (1960's/70's) I made my first bromine in a similar fashion (sulfuric acid was still a bit hard to come by until I reached the age of
majority - when I COULD buy just about any reagent at a laboratory supply company) using NaBr and MnO2 which were available at hobby shops. Still
needed battery acid, though, LOL.
I feel so sad to see what has become of this noble hobby and the lengths hobbyists have to go through! It is a crying shame! I even read stories that
schools are shutting down programs due to the costs of following regulations and converting to "virtual" chemistry classes. How in the WORLD can
someone learn from that? Hard to develop respect for chemicals when everything is video... y'know, the "reset" world where nobody is harmed!? Eh,
going off on my soapbox. I salute you brave souls!
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microcosmicus
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JustMe and MagicJigPipe, do they sell Betadine or Povidone where you
live or have they gone so far in their zeal as to pull that off the shelves?
By the way, the ban on iodine tincture could become national law. The
regulatory document mentioned two posts ago says the following:
| Quote: |
However, should clandestine laboratory operators begin to exploit the
exemption for small packages of Lugol's Solution as a source of iodine
for the manufacture of methamphetamine, DEA may remove these
exemption provisions.
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Given that it is not that hard to get the iodine out of the tincture (simple
redox chemistry), even generally clueless Mr. Swim can learn to do it if
needed for his enterprises. Once that happens, bye bye iodine.
quicksliver, for the topic at hand it might even better to ask if iodine, toluene,
and other chemicals jump off the laboratory shelf and spontaneously
combine to make amphetamines. Of course not --- as we know, a
non-trivial synthesis with several steps is required. Even if one maintains
that guns and drugs should be tightly controlled because they are dangerous,
I think one would be hard pressed to stretch that ban to the items used to
make them, especially given that they can be used to make all sorts
of other stuff. To me, the analogue of banning iodine would be to ban
screwdrivers and other metalworking tools because they could be used
to make firearms.
JustMe, as I said elsewhere, this banning of home chemistry, dumbing
down curricula, and other anti-science policies is a form of cultural suicide.
No matter how snazzy the graphics, at the bottom, this virtual chemistry boils
down to a numerical approximation to the theory, so replacing labs with
virtual experiments amounts to replacing experiment with theory. Worse
yet, it is not like the students learn the theory behind the graphics because the
math curriculum has been dumbed down as well, so all they get is a video
game. (A few years back, when I was a professor teaching an introductory
astronomy class, I was shocked to be told by the chairman of the department
that I should not even make use of simple proportions (for example, to calculate
parallax) because the students are not prepared and expect absolutely no
mathematics, even what should be elementary school material !!!)
It's not just a matter of developing respect for chemicals, but of developing
respect for experimental error, laboratory technique, and the subtle
interplay between theory and experiment.
[Edited on 24-2-2008 by microcosmicus]
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quicksilver
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microcosmicus : You're right of course. My "automated Libertarian Response button" was pushed so I wrote out of rote. :-]
On the subject of the dumbing down of the schools in the US, there was a popular book written awhile back that got the Teacher's Union all up in arms
which, I personally, thought was a good thing. The book was powerful and actually was not refuted.
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/
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MagicJigPipe
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Povidone-Iodine is still available. Does anyone have any experience buying KI from pharmacies (I doubt they would have any NaI)? The reason I think
it's unlikely they would have NaI over KI is because KI is used as a precautionary measure against radiation poisoning (blocks radioactive I2 from
collecting in the thyroid[?]). I believe this is fairly common (although a dilute KI solution is commonly used). In fact, I have read that in the
case of nationwide catastrophic radioactive material release, the US KI supplies would be insufficient.
I always thought that Na salts were cheaper than KI salts, in general. Maybe NaI isn't as effective for this purpose?
Anyway, the oxidation of iodide salts is very effective. I mean the theoretical yield (doing quick molar calculations in my head) is something like
70% I by weight (as in 30% K and 70% I). That's pretty damn good. 1kg of KI could, in theory, yield ~700g of I2. I know, in practice it's much lower
but still very worth it. If the KI at pharmacies is lower than ~$100 per kg (even $200/kg) then it would still be WAY more cost effective than using
tincture.
I'm going to call around to some pharmacies right now to see.
[Edited on 24-2-2008 by MagicJigPipe]
"There must be no barriers to freedom of inquiry ... There is no place for dogma in science. The scientist is free, and must be free to ask any
question, to doubt any assertion, to seek for any evidence, to correct any errors. ... We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it and
that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. And we know that as long as men are free to ask what they must, free to say what they think,
free to think what they will, freedom can never be lost, and science can never regress." -J. Robert Oppenheimer
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