| Pages:
1
2
3 |
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'm not seeing a lot of good data available free online on the densities of ternary mixtures of EtOH, H<sub>2</sub>O, and MeOH....
http://www.slideshare.net/paperpublications3/some-excess-properties-of-ternary-liquid-mixture-of-water-methanol-ethanol-at-several-temperatures
doesn't have a lot of data and overstates its claims.
http://www.nist.gov/srd/upload/jpcrd566.pdf omitted any data for the combination MeOH + EtOH + H<sub>2</sub>O, probably because they
are miscible.
I don't know if Lange's handbook or the CRC handbook would have density tables for ternary solvent mixtures.
|
|
|
MolecularWorld
Hazard to Others
Posts: 110
Registered: 30-10-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by JJay  | | On the topic of legality, I am pretty sure that distilling denatured alcohol for purposes of preparing a chemical reagent is completely legal in my
jurisdiction. |
Lucky. In my "jurisdiction" (the United States), distillation of ethanol FOR ANY PURPOSE without a permit is illegal under federal law. "Under current law and regulations, we cannot allow you to conduct experiments involving distillation of alcohol at your home." For production of
ethanol for purposes other than drinking, an Alcohol Fuel Producer permit can be obtained, although I've heard it takes months to process, and the
fine print basically states you waive your right to unlawful search of the ethanol production facilities (which could include your home and entire
property). State laws can be more restrictive, but not less. In my state, I don't know of any more restrictive laws on ethanol distillation, but I
recently found one banning the "unauthorized manufacture" of methanol, benzene, acetone, and more.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MolecularWorld | | Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | On the topic of legality, I am pretty sure that distilling denatured alcohol for purposes of preparing a chemical reagent is completely legal in my
jurisdiction. |
Lucky. In my "jurisdiction" (the United States), distillation of ethanol FOR ANY PURPOSE without a permit is illegal under federal law. "Under current law and regulations, we cannot allow you to conduct experiments involving distillation of alcohol at your home." For production of
ethanol for purposes other than drinking, an Alcohol Fuel Producer permit can be obtained, although I've heard it takes months to process, and the
fine print basically states you waive your right to unlawful search of the ethanol production facilities (which could include your home and entire
property). State laws can be more restrictive, but not less. In my state, I don't know of any more restrictive laws on ethanol distillation, but I
recently found one banning the "unauthorized manufacture" of methanol, benzene, acetone, and more. |
An educational institution is supposed to obtain a permit, correct, but it is legal to manufacture ethanol for scientific use in most states,
regardless of whether you have a permit.
|
|
|
MolecularWorld
Hazard to Others
Posts: 110
Registered: 30-10-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The part I quoted specifically states "at your home". The Mythbusters also needed a permit to distill. "While individuals of legal drinking age may produce wine or beer at home for personal or family use, Federal law strictly prohibits individuals from
producing distilled spirits at home (see 26 United States Code (U.S.C.) 5042(a)(2) and 5053(e))."
I've never seen exceptions for ethanol produced for "scientific use"; please link to where you read "it is legal to manufacture ethanol for scientific
use in most states".
[Edited on 5-11-2015 by MolecularWorld]
|
|
|
arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1763
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
|
|
nope. not "turbo". personally used this product. Probably GMO, 
Turbo Yeast
I am a redneck, we moonshine.
[Edited on 11-5-2015 by arkoma]
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
Well, I'm covered under U.S. Code Title 26.E.51.D § 5273 (c).
If I were making food grade spirits, we'd be talking about something completely different. I found a law that would probably work in the case of food
grade alcohol for scientific use, but I would have to do some more research to be really sure.
|
|
|
arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1763
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | Well, I'm covered under U.S. Code Title 26.E.51.D § 5273 (c).
If I were making food grade spirits, we'd be talking about something completely different. I found a law that would probably work in the case of food
grade alcohol for scientific use, but I would have to do some more research to be really sure. |
It is all about taxes. I would check the BATFE website.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'm doing another run on the low-boiling fraction, this time with a controlled temperature water bath and magnetic stirring, in hopes of recovering
more ethanol. The residue in the distilling flask had two layers and smelled like rubber cement.
|
|
|
zombiedude1
Harmless
Posts: 36
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You'll need a Federal Fuel Alcohol permit to distill ethanol legally for non-consumption purposes. Very easy to obtain which allows you to distill a
certain amount per year. Looks like you took my advice. Anyway, I think U.S. Code Title 26.E.51.D § 5273 (c) applies to employee's working under a
permit (not entirely sure - I'm not a lawyer - but just know, regardless, it's illegal without a permit if the police want to bust you for it; they
can).
Under no circumstances should you ever distill or sell alcohol without a permit. (If you wanna be legal)
Arkoma is correct, turbo yeast is a good solution for making ethanol & depending on the strain it will not spill its guts out over 20%; but not so
much for consumption (heard it doesn't have good taste if using a pot still).
Honestly, distilling ethanol through glassware and a vigreux column is a waste of time (imo). I have a separate 15.5gal all copper and stainless steel
ethanol distillation setup with different columns which I use once in a very rare while to produce what I need quickly and lots of it. (DON'T WORRY --
I store my copper parts in ethanol  )
My first test with my glassware was re-running a previous ethanol distillation mixture of heads and tails to use for cleaning. Took too long, never
gonna do that again unless I want small volumes!
What someone else said is correct; you won't be able to distill anhydrous ethanol due to azeotrope. 95% is about as high as you need for anything
anyway.  A proof and trall hydrometer is what you'll need to measure ABV; I highly
recommend one.
[Edited on 5-11-2015 by zombiedude1]
[Edited on 5-11-2015 by zombiedude1]
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
The police could bust me for selling it, but seeing how I'm not, I could have a neon sign out front saying that I'm offering free tours of my alcohol
still to the public, and the most they could do is give me a lecture before mosying on out the door.
I'm perfectly aware of the azeotrope, but the plan, of course, is to use 3A molecular sieves to remove the remaining water. Distilling through a
column definitely works better than distilling without one, and 95% is *not* high enough for several purposes.
|
|
|
Mesa
Hazard to Others
Posts: 264
Registered: 2-7-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I skimmed this patent a few weeks ago, it might be interesting/relevant to you.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4696720
It's a hell of a lot easier to dry methanol or isopropanol to a significantly anhydrous state compared to drying ethanol past it's azeotrope. This
could be a practical solution for ethanol in amateur/home preps.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'm still not getting very good separation of fractions. I've come up with a procedure for getting good separation, but it's pretty labor
intensive....
Basically, I'll want to set up 10 (or so) large test tubes and assign each one a 2 (or so) degree fraction. I'll start by distilling out each
fraction. Then I'll take each fraction, from low to high, and distill it, distributing the fractions to their respective test tubes. Once I've
redistilled each fraction, I'll start over with the lowest fraction. The procedure will end when I make a pass through each fraction without
redistributing any part of any fraction to the other fractions.
Then I'll take the ethanol-water fraction and dry it with molecular sieves.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Mesa | I skimmed this patent a few weeks ago, it might be interesting/relevant to you.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4696720
It's a hell of a lot easier to dry methanol or isopropanol to a significantly anhydrous state compared to drying ethanol past it's azeotrope. This
could be a practical solution for ethanol in amateur/home preps.
|
Sometimes there are no substitutes for ethanol.
|
|
|
arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1763
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by zombiedude1 |
Arkoma is correct, turbo yeast is a good solution for making ethanol & depending on the strain it will not spill its guts out over 20%; but not so
much for consumption (heard it doesn't have good taste if using a pot still).
|
Makes "neutral" spirit like no ones biz though, with no pesky/poisonous denaturants and the overall cost per litre is so low as to approach "free".
Turbo will also ferment plain old white sugar. The package has all the stuff the lovely little beasties need, nutrient wise, to belch CO2
and piss EtOH. The seller in the earlier link is a prompt shipper, too.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
|
|
|
MolecularWorld
Hazard to Others
Posts: 110
Registered: 30-10-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | The police could bust me for selling it, but seeing how I'm not, I could have a neon sign out front saying that I'm offering free tours of my alcohol
still to the public, and the most they could do is give me a lecture before mosying on out the door. |
That would be true if the laws only referred to "distribution" or "consumption". They do not. Most of them refer to "production". It's illegal the
second the ethanol vapors start condensing. Do you really think when they find thousand-gallon stills full of mash hidden in the woods, they wait to
make sure the guy is selling the products? Even if he's using them for fuel, he would need a permit.
Nor does it matter that your still is smaller, and not making "food grade" products. A lot of what has been produced under the guise of 'moonshine' is
not "food grade" (no offense to producers of Artisanal White Whiskey like arkoma). "For example, if a manufacturer produces isobutanol by a fermentation process that also generates ethyl alcohol and the manufacturer separates the
materials using distillation, the manufacturer may be required to qualify as a distilled spirits plant under 27 CFR part 19."
Don't get me wrong: do whatever you want, as long as you're not hurting others. Just don't proclaim it's legal without good evidence. I'd advise you
read some of the horror stories (search for "bust") on this board before putting up that neon sign; if it looks illegal and sounds illegal, the cops
can smash your glass, tear apart your house, and hold you for weeks before they realize they screwed up.
Back to chemistry...
In that photo, is your condenser (and a Keck clip) supporting the full weight of the separatory funnel‽
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MolecularWorld | | Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | The police could bust me for selling it, but seeing how I'm not, I could have a neon sign out front saying that I'm offering free tours of my alcohol
still to the public, and the most they could do is give me a lecture before mosying on out the door. |
That would be true if the laws only referred to "distribution" or "consumption". They do not. Most of them refer to "production". It's illegal the
second the ethanol vapors start condensing. Do you really think when they find thousand-gallon stills full of mash hidden in the woods, they wait to
make sure the guy is selling the products? Even if he's using them for fuel, he would need a permit.
Nor does it matter that your still is smaller, and not making "food grade" products. A lot of what has been produced under the guise of 'moonshine' is
not "food grade" (no offense to producers of Artisanal White Whiskey like arkoma). "For example, if a manufacturer produces isobutanol by a fermentation process that also generates ethyl alcohol and the manufacturer separates the
materials using distillation, the manufacturer may be required to qualify as a distilled spirits plant under 27 CFR part 19."
Don't get me wrong: do whatever you want, as long as you're not hurting others. Just don't proclaim it's legal without good evidence. I'd advise you
read some of the horror stories (search for "bust") on this board before putting up that neon sign; if it looks illegal and sounds illegal, the cops
can smash your glass, tear apart your house, and hold you for weeks before they realize they screwed up.
Back to chemistry...
In that photo, is your condenser (and a Keck clip) supporting the full weight of the separatory funnel‽ |
I'm not trying to be rude about this, but you really need to read the law I cited - what I am doing is completely legal, and if they arrested me/took
my equipment/etc. I could sue for damages and win. I'm not putting up a neon sign, but I'm completely on the right side of the law here.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
Running another distillation... I'm going to capture 2 degree fractions and then redistill them.
|
|
|
MolecularWorld
Hazard to Others
Posts: 110
Registered: 30-10-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'm not trying to be rude either. I read the law you cited, and, taken out of context, it seems like a good loophole. But, having read it in context
with the rest of that law, I agree with what zombiedude1 said above:
| Quote: Originally posted by zombiedude1 | Anyway, I think U.S. Code Title 26.E.51.D § 5273 (c) applies to employee's working under a permit (not entirely sure - I'm not a lawyer - but just
know, regardless, it's illegal without a permit if the police want to bust you for it; they can).
|
Since your still is less than 1 gallon, you paid for your ethanol (sales tax and all), and you're not selling your product, you probably wont have any
problems. But probably ≠ definitely. You're in a grey area at best.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
I've taken two fractions, one below 62 and one from 62-64. They are both very small fractions. The fraction from 64-66 looks like it is going to be a
big one.
[Edited on 5-11-2015 by JJay]
|
|
|
Mesa
Hazard to Others
Posts: 264
Registered: 2-7-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | Quote: Originally posted by Mesa | I skimmed this patent a few weeks ago, it might be interesting/relevant to you.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4696720
It's a hell of a lot easier to dry methanol or isopropanol to a significantly anhydrous state compared to drying ethanol past it's azeotrope. This
could be a practical solution for ethanol in amateur/home preps.
|
Sometimes there are no substitutes for ethanol. |
If you read the patent I linked, you'll see I wasn't talking about substituting anything. I was pointing out how Methanol/Isopropanol can be used to
dry ethanol efficiently.
That's the subject of this thread no?
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MolecularWorld | I'm not trying to be rude either. I read the law you cited, and, taken out of context, it seems like a good loophole. But, having read it in context
with the rest of that law, I agree with what zombiedude1 said above:
| Quote: Originally posted by zombiedude1 | Anyway, I think U.S. Code Title 26.E.51.D § 5273 (c) applies to employee's working under a permit (not entirely sure - I'm not a lawyer - but just
know, regardless, it's illegal without a permit if the police want to bust you for it; they can).
|
Since your still is less than 1 gallon, you paid for your ethanol (sales tax and all), and you're not selling your product, you probably wont have any
problems. But probably ≠ definitely. You're in a grey area at best. |
You sound like a cop TBH, I'm probably going to sell small quantities of some
products, but ethanol isn't one of them. I may file some documents in the future, but it's not strictly required, nor should it be.
Oh and yes, the sep funnel is supported by nothing more than a Keck clamp. It's a pretty small funnel; if I had my 1L hooked up, I'd have to support
it with something that can bear more weight.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Mesa | | Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | Quote: Originally posted by Mesa | I skimmed this patent a few weeks ago, it might be interesting/relevant to you.
http://www.google.com/patents/US4696720
It's a hell of a lot easier to dry methanol or isopropanol to a significantly anhydrous state compared to drying ethanol past it's azeotrope. This
could be a practical solution for ethanol in amateur/home preps.
|
Sometimes there are no substitutes for ethanol. |
If you read the patent I linked, you'll see I wasn't talking about substituting anything. I was pointing out how Methanol/Isopropanol can be used to
dry ethanol efficiently.
That's the subject of this thread no? |
Methanol and isopropanol can be used to dry ethanol? I'm not aware of any procedure that would use either of those to dry ethanol without other
reagents.... (I don't have any ion exchange resins.) Usually, people dry ethanol with benzene.
|
|
|
Mesa
Hazard to Others
Posts: 264
Registered: 2-7-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You don't have a pet shop or aquarium store nearby?
$20 per kilogram aluminosilicate(zeolite) material sold for aquarium use would be applicable here. There's no requirement for a commercial/synthetic
resin.
|
|
|
aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by JJay | | I'm not seeing a lot of good data available free online on the densities of ternary mixtures of EtOH, H<sub>2</sub>O, and MeOH....
|
For that data to be Known somebody has to put in the effort, verify the data (more effort) and then publish the data for free on the internet (more
effort).
If it is not freely available knowledge, you have the Power to make it so.
Do the Science, make the results freely available.
|
|
|
arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1763
Registered: 3-2-2014
Location: On a Big Blue Marble hurtling through space
Member Is Offline
Mood: украї́нська
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by JJay |
I'm not trying to be rude about this, but you really need to read the law I cited - what I am doing is completely legal, and if they arrested me/took
my equipment/etc. I could sue for damages and win. I'm not putting up a neon sign, but I'm completely on the right side of the law here.
|
You keep thinking that. Write us from the penitentiary.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
