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Esplosivo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by I am a fish
| Quote: | | Our bodies (cells) MAKE H2O2 to fight infection. Ever heard of catalase enzyme? |
Wrong again. Cells make small quantities of hydrogen peroxide as an unwanted (and toxic) byproduct of metabolism. Catalase's role is to break
it down, not to make it.
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Well not exactly, the superoxide radicle is produced by certain types of white blood cells to kill and destroy certain pathogens, be they organisms or
particles. It is therefore not correct to state that hydrogen peroxide generated by the body is always a byproduct. Catalase has a high turn-over rate
(one of the highest). This prevents H2O2 from being present in the blood stream and causing damage. IIRC the peroxide ion was shown not long ago to
cause effects similar to ageing (wrinkles and all).
Also another disadvantage of your system is that one would require massive loads of this 'topical hydrogen peroxide' of yours. It only
contains 3% by volume of oxygen, which is quickly used up, even by tissues with a low metabolic rate.
Theory guides, experiment decides.
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sparkgap
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If you're hoping to oxygenate the body with dilute peroxide, this is too much trouble for a paltry oxygen supply. IMHO.
There is a world of difference between "nascent" and "atmospheric" oxygen.  Essentially, they are allotropes, as well as ozone. Reactivity-wise, I can say with confidence that no one will want
to have nascent oxygen inside their bodies!
Hyperbaric treatments involve exposing the body to high pressure oxygen; quite different from the protocol you are proposing.
Please desist on thinking about internal administration of peroxide.
Since we're on the subject of peroxide anyway, I was surprised to find out (through Google) that a website has been dedicated to it: http://www.h2o2.com/ .
sparky (^_^)
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kin
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Guess you are right. It may be more dangerous than i thought.
Are any other methods of "pushing" more oxygen in blood than h2o2 or botled o2?
I had a thought like that:
Decomposing H2O2 with Mno2 then filter trough distiled water the gass generated. Instead of breathing it it could be used topicaly with a large vessel
that can adapt on skin with no gaps not alowing gas to escape.
Slowly the epidermis absorbes this extra oxygen in to the blood vessels promoting oxygenation to the (inner) ijured area.
It could be a miniature of HBO if enough pressure can be generated between the "skin adapted vessel" and epidermis.
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sparkgap
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By hyperbaric, we're talking about literally atmospheres of pressure here...
I'm still skeptical that the skin will absorb useful amounts of oxygen at easily attainable pressures.
sparky (^_^)
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Esplosivo
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kin
Slowly the epidermis absorbes this extra oxygen in to the blood vessels promoting oxygenation to the (inner) ijured area.
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The human body wall, the skin, is not a highly vascular organ (and neither is it humid enough to allow gases to dissolve and pass to the blood, not to
mention the thickness; just keep Fick's law in min). It is, unlike other organisms like certain annelids and amphibians, not adapted for gaseous
exchange. In 'forcing' in oxygen through the skin in reasonable amounts, enough to make an organ autonomous from the lungs and heart, would
most probably require a large pressure, not mentioning the damage to the skin dermis and the capillaries.
If I'm understanding correctly you are aiming at supplying an organ/tissue which is injured (I presume it has lost blood supply) with oxygen.
That would be quite interesting indeed.
Theory guides, experiment decides.
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kin
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| Quote: | originaly posted by Esplosivo
If I'm understanding correctly you are aiming at supplying an organ/tissue which is injured (I presume it has lost blood supply) with oxygen.
That would be quite interesting indeed. |
Exactly!
Actualy many tissues in body have poor blood supply by the time of birth, so injuring such a delicate spot it is very time consuming and hard to
"heal right".
But by promoting extra oxygen (doesn't have to be in tons just a little increase) at the injured area can help the neovascularization of tissue
and the increase in metabolic rate of the cells meaning they can work faster.
The problem is always doing it safely.
I read in some site for a cream that claims to oxygenate from the skin the inner cartilages of joints. It contained H2O2.
But on the other hand it could be just someone trying to sell his product.
http://www.arthritisjointsolution.com/moxy_plus.htm
I can not imagine how can essential oils combine with hydrogen peroxide.
Can someone explain it to me?
[Edited on 29-3-2005 by kin]
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neutrino
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Another snake oil company…
I seriously doubt that a small increase in the amount of oxygen in a tissue would make any significant difference. Also, what is this obsession with
hydrogen peroxide? The oxygen gas given off by this stuff is exactly the same as what comes out of bottles. Putting it into your skin is a very bad
idea, as has already been discussed.
To explain/discredit this company, let’s apply some common sense, a little science, and most valuable of all, historical precedent. The DMSO is
meant to take anything dissolved in it straight into the skin—fair enough. The peroxide is the snake oil here, Mr. fish’s article thoroughly
debunked this. What do essential oils do, you ask? The answer: sell the product. Essential oils usually have no function in the plants they’re made
in, neither are they likely to have much of an effect in animals. Most people, however, don’t know this and think they have some implicit
theraputical value, being ‘essential’ and all.
Finally, the historical. People have been selling quack medicines for centuries. What makes you think the world today is any different. Just look at
what people were buying in the early 20th century. They also thought that the stuff they were buying was good for them. Unfortunately, drinking radium and wearing it in
jewelry turned out to be a very bad idea, so the quackers moved onto other junk.
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kin
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| Quote: | Originally posted by neutrino
Another snake oil company…
I seriously doubt that a small increase in the amount of oxygen in a tissue would make any significant difference. Also, what is this obsession with
hydrogen peroxide? The oxygen gas given off by this stuff is exactly the same as what comes out of bottles. Putting it into your skin is a very bad
idea, as has already been discussed.
To explain/discredit this company, let’s apply some common sense, a little science, and most valuable of all, historical precedent. The DMSO is
meant to take anything dissolved in it straight into the skin—fair enough. The peroxide is the snake oil here, Mr. fish’s article thoroughly
debunked this. What do essential oils do, you ask? The answer: sell the product. Essential oils usually have no function in the plants they’re made
in, neither are they likely to have much of an effect in animals. Most people, however, don’t know this and think they have some implicit
theraputical value, being ‘essential’ and all.
Finally, the historical. People have been selling quack medicines for centuries. What makes you think the world today is any different. Just look at
what people were buying in the early 20th century. They also thought that the stuff they were buying was good for them. Unfortunately, drinking radium and wearing it in
jewelry turned out to be a very bad idea, so the quackers moved onto other junk. |
Agree.
Can bottled O2 bought without medical subscription?
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sparkgap
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I don't quite know how to subscribe to bottled O<sub>2</sub>, but it should be easy to procure without needing permission from
anyone, AFAIK.
DMSO and peroxide... they really are pulling pant legs...
neutrino, that was a very good example of quackery.  Another example that comes
to mind is the purported "universal antidote".
kin, you really should not be quoting whole posts.
sparky (^_^)
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12AX7
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kin
Can bottled O2 bought without medical subscription? |
Welder's supply store.
Or heck, even Ace hardware, if you want a few ounces (for $8!).
Tim
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kin
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Is it clean O2?
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sparkgap
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Ought to be. It's not that inconvenient for them to separate oxygen from the rest of the air.
sparky (^_^)
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kin
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leaving 200 ml of 9% H2O2 in a room at night slowly decomposing with MnO2 it could add extra oxygen to the air.
Would the precentage be enough to ingrease oxygen in blood by breathing?
Sorry i mention again H2O2 but i got "tons" of it and it is useless.
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neutrino
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I doubt it would increase it by any significant amount. This amount would produce only ~6L of oxygen gas. If you like explosives, there is a list of
things you could synthesize. It’s also used a good deal in standard chem. Search around, there’s bound to be something interesting you can do with
it.
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kin
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If i am gona use it i will be for health purposes.
I made once dimeric (wet) acetone peroxide 300 grams and i regret it. My left ear is ringing 2 years now. I was 10 meters away.
how dangerous is this in your opinion?
http://www.altcancer.com/h2o2.htm
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neutrino
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It looks like more snake oil to me. As for safety, I doubt you’ll have too much of a problem, as you shouldn’t get too much peroxide in your
blood. I’m not an expert on these things, though, so you may want a second opinion. As for the safety of working with the conc. peroxide, well, the
pictures say it all.
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kin
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Is it possible for the oxygen to create any dizziness ?
When breathing fast and deep in purpose without any physical activity there is a dizziness present. Is this fealing caused from the extra oxygen in
blood?
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Esplosivo
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That is known as hyperventilation, and it is due to 'excess' oxygen. It may lead to one fainting, etc....
Theory guides, experiment decides.
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12AX7
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I heard it was insufficient CO2 in the bloodstream (thus tilting pH).
Come to think of it, breathing pure oxygen would produce this effect, if extra O2 were the cause. As I recall, though it does give you a boost, it
doesn't make you high.
Tim
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kin
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 12AX7
I heard it was insufficient CO2 in the bloodstream (thus tilting pH).
Tim |
So breathing fast "does" create extra oxygen in blood but this is not the reason for the dizy feeling. It is the low CO2 am i right?
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pneumatician
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superoxide dismutase?
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