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aga
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The Truth is Out.
CraftyBruce is going to this much trouble to get a decent beverage cos Fosters really is that bad.
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Mesa
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Nah, Fosters is just the shit we export to the rest of the world because nobody here will touch it.
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Oxirane
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Ethanol brewing and distilling is a very easy task to do. The main problem is that good information is scarce and you must be critical. Alcohol making
is one of those myth-filled things where stupid and drunk people dominate.
Alcohol fermentation is odorless with active carbon water clogs. I have once brewed 200 liters of alcohol in an apartment and there was zero odor.
This liquid is then filtered through sand and distilled with long, preferably at least 1000mm reflux column with glass. This way you can control the
temperature by 0.1C intervals and you can be certain that you only get the pure ethanol-water fraction with 94-96% concentration.
I could say that ethanol making for common chemist or guy is not time consuming, but equipment-intensive to be efficient. You need to get plastic
barrel for fermentation and water clogs and activated carbon, filtering equipment and hand pump(gravity) to move the liquid and a steel drum and
distilling column.
Ethanol in here is denatured with pyridine and MEK. Impurities are so minor that it will do well for most amateur synthesis, but it certainly is not
palatable. It is so expensive though that if any more than few liters would be needed, making it self is worth it.
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blogfast25
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| Quote: | | Think about the experiment and the facts. |
I have, obviously. The fact remains you’re willing to imbibe something that hasn’t been analysed.
| Quote: | make a sugar mix and distil, and its both VERY time consuming and you have a host of potentially toxic chemicals in the mix. , When you use those
Turbo Yeasts, its even worse.
Methanol, acetone, acetaldehyde, Higher alcohols are all there and in many very noticeable. Do the distil of this toxic mess wrongly, and you
concentrate these, and yes even kill some-one, that happens every year around the world in the thousands. |
So much waffle presented as fact here.
Turbo yeast is just a marketing term. They don’t work any faster in my experience. There also is no reason to believe they produce “a host of
potentially toxic chemicals in the mix”. If you know better, present peer reviewed evidence to that effect.
As regards the rest of your statement, talk about turning the world on its head!!!
Thousands worldwide, myself included, brew wine and beer from a variety of fermentables, totally safely. Now Craftybugger comes around and tells us
to do it from a particular brand of methylated spirits!
Oh, wait, no he doesn’t:
| Quote: | | Oh, The safety warning ie don't try this at home bit!!!!! |
Five exclamation marks, no less...
I think you suffer from a bad case of confirmation bias.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by blogfast25]
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Craftbrewer
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>>>>>>>So much waffle presented as fact here.
Turbo yeast is just a marketing term. They don’t work any faster in my experience. There also is no reason to believe they produce “a host of
potentially toxic chemicals in the mix”. If you know better, present peer reviewed evidence to that effect.<<<<<
Now this tells me you really don't know much about brewing. Turbo yeast is not a marketing term, Its a specially " bred" yeast, has a high tolerance
of alcohol above normal yeast, around 20% alcohol, and ferments sugars quicker than normal yeast. One method used to protect it from the high alcohol
content is the high level producing of acetone.
As the ethanol levels get higher, they will also produce much higher levels of your " fusals"
Do I need peer reviewed literature, NOPE!!!!! its out there freely available. Do the advanced brewing course if you want to learn more, NOT what this
thread is about.
And while thousands do make there alcohol thru fermentation, there is also thousands dieing each year from not distilling it properly.
AND THATS A FACT.
Just like distilling these washed properly to avoid death (like in prohibition), why cant you see there can be nothing wrong with doing it from other
sources if you know what your doing.
Have confidence with chemistry.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by Craftbrewer  | Turbo yeast is not a marketing term, Its a specially " bred" yeast, has a high tolerance of alcohol above normal yeast, around 20% alcohol, and
ferments sugars quicker than normal yeast. One method used to protect it from the high alcohol content is the high level producing of acetone.
Do I need peer reviewed literature, NOPE!!!!! its out there freely available. Do the advanced brewing course if you want to learn more, NOT what this
thread is about.
And while thousands do make there alcohol thru fermentation, there is also thousands dieing each year from not distilling it properly.
AND THATS A FACT.
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You just waffle on and on and on w/o a shred of evidence being presented. No wonder you believe in your own superpowers.
Show me peer reviewed evidence for Turbo yeasts being more resistant to alcohol than normal strains. Not marketing materials, not 'Jack on the home
brew forum told me so', but actual HARD evidence.
| Quote: | And while thousands do make there alcohol thru fermentation, there is also thousands dieing each year from not distilling it properly.
AND THATS A FACT. |
Because you say so? Again where's the hard evidence for that?
"Put up or shut up", as Newton said to Hooke. And learn to spell while you're at it.
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Little_Ghost_again
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The truth about Turbo yeast is it wasnt bred to matabolise sucrose! I cant remember which sugar it is bred to use (I will go find out).
My dad has a paper in for review (due to be published December), Yes it has a high tolerance to Ethanol but the matabolsm is completely different.
I will go see if I can get him to post details here, but generally for Ethanol Turbo yeast is a bad choice. Actually if you ferment to conclusion and
then add 0.3% sucrose/lactose to any yeast culture you will find active yeast appear, you can use these to start other cultures and eventually you can
get resistant strain. But I am not the Biologist he is so I cant tell you why at the moment sorry
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Craftbrewer
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Wont put up nor shut up, nor continue a topic not related to this thread.
BUT I will get back on topic with more observations.
1. The absorption of the aromatic hydrocarbon (one still presume cyclohexane) when you add olive oil is VERY exothermic -generated a lot of heat. It
shows the olive oil is at least doing something, and is not just sitting there.
Of course many possible causes, BUT one is its showing its actually absorbing something. Could it be cyclohexane.
2. I collected some olive oil of a sample of distilled ethanol, as it was still active clearing out our unknown hydrocarbon (cyclohexane???) Put that
in a glass so I could compare that oil oil to the one on the ethanol.
Two observations, backed by independent blind testing.
Boths oils originally went hazy, and both cleared over time. The one in the cup cleared real quick (one assuming the cyclohexane all evaporated out)
Originally both oils had that unusual smell, (interesting one stated it smelt like peppermint oil) BUT the one in the cup after two days the smell in
that was totally gone. By a few days, the one in the cup was like the oil you buy, BUT the one in the ethanol jar still had that smell.
Take this how you like it. To me it shows the oil is absorbing the compound that is causing the problem, and it seems it is leaving the oil as well.
Further information on observations that support its cyclohexane.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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aga
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Whoah dude !
So you're saying that Olive Oil reacts/clears one or more contaminants in the ethanol ?
Proof being that it gets hot ?
Suppose the Test is if i go get some pretty pure ethanol and some olive oil.
Be right back ...
Edit:
Done that. Pure Ethanol + Olive Oil does nothing much.
Mixed well it forms an emulsion, and looks like a really good vinagrette.
No heating.
Tried Toluene as well, no heating. Odd emulsion, almost dissolved.
Got no cyclohexane to test with.
So Ethanol alone doesn't immediately react with Olive Oil exothermically.
Must be something else then ...
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by aga]
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Artemus Gordon
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| Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise | | Quote: | | Unfortunately some of the authorities had come up with a plan to combat methanol poisoning from bootlegged alcohol by further increasing the amount
of methanol in denaturated ethanol. According to the story the deaths by methanol poisoning shot up proportionally! |
Wow ─ 'some authorities'?
The words "bastards" and "complete" fairly spring to mind . . .
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This is America we're talking about. To quote the 'grandfather' of the modern Republican party, Barry Goldwater:
"... moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
... assuming "justice" means "hurting people we deem to be outside our little circle of friends", which is the way most Republicans would define it.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Artemus Gordon]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Craftbrewer | Wont put up npr shut up, nor continue a topic not related to this thread.
BUT I will get back on topic with more observations.
1. The absorption of the aromatic hydrocarbon (one still presume cyclohexane) when you add olive oil is VERY exothermic -generated a lot of heat. It
shows the olive oil is at least doing something, and is not just sitting there.
Of course many possible causes, BUT one is its showing its actually absorbing something. Could it be cyclohexane.
2. I collected some olive oil of a sample of distilled ethanol, as it was still active clearing out our unknown hydrocarbon (cyclohexane???) Put that
in a glass so I could compare that oil oil to the one on the ethanol.
Two observations, backed by independent blind testing.
Boths oils originally went hazy, and both cleared over time. The one in the cup cleared real quick (one assuming the cyclohexane all evaporated out)
Originally both oils had that unusual smell, (interesting one stated it smelt like peppermint oil)m BUT the one in the cup after two days the smell in
that was totally gone. By a few days, the one in the cup was like the oil you buy, BUT the one in the ethanol jar still had that smell.
Take this how you like it. To me it shows the oil is absorbing the compound that is causing the problem, and it seems it is leaving the oil as well.
Further information on observations that support its cyclohexane.
|
It's VERY related to this topic, you just don't have what it takes to 'put up'.
If the absorption of cyclohexane into olive oil is so exothermic then that can be easily tested. I'll do it for you if you like, I've got 99.5 %
cyclohexane. It seems unlikely though (to be exothermic): mixing of organics is mostly driven by Entropy, not Enthalpy.
Collect enough of the alleged cyclohexane, run a density and a BP. Compare to listed values. Better still: a Raman IR.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by blogfast25]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again | | I will go see if I can get him to post details here, but generally for Ethanol Turbo yeast is a bad choice. Actually if you ferment to conclusion and
then add 0.3% sucrose/lactose to any yeast culture you will find active yeast appear, you can use these to start other cultures and eventually you can
get resistant strain. But I am not the Biologist he is so I cant tell you why at the moment sorry |
Can you also ask him if he's heard of the 'home brew deadly pandemic' our OP is alleging?
I've also heard about massive human resurrections going on in Africa right now, perhaps that's true as well?
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Craftbrewer
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http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/deaths-of-thre...
Just to point out it happens all the time
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Artemus Gordon | | Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise | | Quote: | | Unfortunately some of the authorities had come up with a plan to combat methanol poisoning from bootlegged alcohol by further increasing the amount
of methanol in denaturated ethanol. According to the story the deaths by methanol poisoning shot up proportionally! |
Wow ─ 'some authorities'?
The words "bastards" and "complete" fairly spring to mind . . .
|
This is America we're talking about. To quote the 'grandfather' of the modern Republican party, Barry Goldwater:
"... moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
... assuming "justice" means "hurting people we deem to be outside our little circle of friends", which is the way most Republicans would define it.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Artemus Gordon] |
BTW, I got that part of the story from PBS's excellent 'Prohibition' doc. I think the bastards genuinely believed increasing methanol content in
denatured alcohol would provide a deterrent to bootleggers/redistillers. Considering how that market worked obviously not...
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Artemus Gordon
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Ehhh, I don't think those dead Aussies were distilling their own mash. More likely they were trying to clean up denatured alcohol:
(from <a href="http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-05/fyi-can-drinking-moonshine-really-make-me-go-blind">here</a>.)
Methanol is a byproduct of alcohol distillation, but only forms in tiny, non-toxic amounts during regular distillation, and anyhow it is easy to
separate and discard from the first few ounces of alcohol that drip from the condenser. These first few ounces contain other so-called
"foreshots"--low-boiling-point compounds that come out of the still first. Methanol is among these compounds (others are acetone, aldehydes, and other
undesirables) that impart unappetizing flavors to perfectly good moonshine. Any distiller worth his salt will discard these at the start, eliminating
methanol (which also leads to nasty hangovers in small doses, by the way) from the equation.
So where does the methanol that causes blindness come from? It's not the alcohol itself you need to be worried about so much as the distiller.
Methanol--also known as wood alcohol--is cheap, and its physiological effects on the body are the same as ethanol's, at least at first. Unscrupulous
moonshiners will actually add methanol to their product to up the potency. And when they do so, the results can range from slightly unhealthy to
absolutely deadly.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Artemus Gordon]
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Craftbrewer
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Craftbrewer | Wont put up npr shut up, nor continue a topic not related to this thread.
BUT I will get back on topic with more observations.
1. The absorption of the aromatic hydrocarbon (one still presume cyclohexane) when you add olive oil is VERY exothermic -generated a lot of heat. It
shows the olive oil is at least doing something, and is not just sitting there.
Of course many possible causes, BUT one is its showing its actually absorbing something. Could it be cyclohexane.
2. I collected some olive oil of a sample of distilled ethanol, as it was still active clearing out our unknown hydrocarbon (cyclohexane???) Put that
in a glass so I could compare that oil oil to the one on the ethanol.
Two observations, backed by independent blind testing.
Boths oils originally went hazy, and both cleared over time. The one in the cup cleared real quick (one assuming the cyclohexane all evaporated out)
Originally both oils had that unusual smell, (interesting one stated it smelt like peppermint oil)m BUT the one in the cup after two days the smell in
that was totally gone. By a few days, the one in the cup was like the oil you buy, BUT the one in the ethanol jar still had that smell.
Take this how you like it. To me it shows the oil is absorbing the compound that is causing the problem, and it seems it is leaving the oil as well.
Further information on observations that support its cyclohexane.
|
It's VERY related to this topic, you just don't have what it takes to 'put up'.
If the absorption of cyclohexane into olive oil is so exothermic then that can be easily tested. I'll do it for you if you like, I've got 99.5 %
cyclohexane. It seems unlikely though (to be exothermic): mixing of organics is mostly driven by Entropy, not Enthalpy.
Collect enough of the alleged cyclohexane, run a density and a BP. Compare to listed values. Better still: a Raman IR.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by blogfast25] |
Oh please do and totally disprove me.
Test your sample of cyclohexane. Importantly do some double blind tastes with ppm samples in vodka. See when its detected, and see what people
describe as what they taste.
While your at it test for being miscible with olive oil too.
You should have a ball disproving everything I have said
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Craftbrewer
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Those guys died from methanol poisoning from a MASH distill. I present facts as you like and you still ingot the FACTS
And back on topic, I say again. You state you have access to near pure cyclohexane
So
Oh please be scienific and totally disprove me as a good researcher would.
Test your sample of cyclohexane. Importantly do some double blind tastes with ppm samples in vodka. See when its detected, and see what people
describe as what they taste.
While your at it test for being miscible with olive oil too. And of course, why not repeat my experiment in a vert controlled way with Cyclohexane
and ethanol and see what happens.
I await your results with interest
You should have a ball disproving everything I have said
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Artemus Gordon
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My last post is all squished over to the right side of the screen. Is that due to too many nested quotes?
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Craftbrewer
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no idea, it went that way and I cant stop it ------fixed it
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Craftbrewer]
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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Little_Ghost_again
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There has been some strange deaths with fermenting Ethanol, a lot though is what you call home made wine. Some people assume you can take ANY plant
and make wine from it (most to be fair you can), but some of the plants contain all kinds of alkaloids etc and some are soluble in Ethanol.
Now I dont know if this is an accurate example but there have been people that make wine from foxgloves! I have no idea if digitalis is soluble in
Ethanol but thats the kind of thing I mean.
I can say that having seen (I am looking at some in a folder now) Gas chromatographs of fermentations that there is all kinds of stuff in them but
nothing that nasty from straight sucrose (nothing with big peaks I can see).
He is away until tomorrow but I will get him to give me the low down on it. His paper isnt actually on the yeast as such, the yeast was being used in
something to do with Embryology and vaccines (please dont ask Its way over my head). But anyway they use yeast a great deal in the work they do,
nothing to do with Ethanol production as such, but obviously everything they do is documented and measured etc. So as a kind of by product of there
work they get a great deal of information of yeast species.
Its a fascinating organism. I would have thought that apart from using a stupid choice of plant material to make wine from, that most deaths are
actually from denatured stuff.
Unrefined sugar often works better in some ways (so I am told), from what I can remember of the conversation its easier to separate by fractional
distillation because some of the metabolites make the Ethanol easier to isolate. maybe something to do with stopping Azeotropes forming or maybe
different??
I dont really know now as it was a couple of weeks ago and much of it sailed way over my head lol.
on the plus side on my other name I had I showed a pic of all the different TLC plate types I have, well now the 2 wavelength UV light turned up
today!!
So if I can work out which plate to use and what solvent etc, then I can do some TLC stuff on my Ethanol batch (the new one). The lamp was meant for
minerals but its great!! Some the plates glow green under short lengh UV, and glow kind of dark under the longer one, I think it also has a built in
filter system so I can use it without a shield (I need to check).
I would be really up for doing some TLC on fermentation mixes, I think there are 8-9 full box's of different whatman plates, so with help I should be
able to get some reasonable results. I also can get access to the GC/MS every other week on a Monday (when I am off school)
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Craftbrewer
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| Quote: Originally posted by Little_Ghost_again | The truth about Turbo yeast is it wasnt bred to matabolise sucrose! I cant remember which sugar it is bred to use (I will go find out).
My dad has a paper in for review (due to be published December), Yes it has a high tolerance to Ethanol but the matabolsm is completely different.
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Side issue, I make a lot of rum out of fermented molasses. If I make a wash out of Beer yeast I get a 10% ethanol wash - maximum. Wine yeast pushes it
to 15% and a Turbo yeast wash gets it over 20%
BUT the taste and hangovers are totally different, all things being equal
1. beer yeast makes a very clean rum, nice tasting, requires little aging
2. Wine yeast produces so interesting flavours, main one is a little alderhydye. Still ok mind you again little aging
3. Turbo Yeast really makes some flavours that are not nice. More methanol comes off by the way, quite significant, BUT definite some compounds are
made that require aging over a year or two to dumb down to acceptable levels.
Equally hangover intensity goes up with the higher alcohol washes. The yeast will be under osmotic stress no doubt, what leaks out who knows.
Again, it shows we have no idea whats those wonderful creatures fart and wee out of them
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Craftbrewer]
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Chemosynthesis
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| Quote: Originally posted by Artemus Gordon | | Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise | | Quote: | | Unfortunately some of the authorities had come up with a plan to combat methanol poisoning from bootlegged alcohol by further increasing the amount
of methanol in denaturated ethanol. According to the story the deaths by methanol poisoning shot up proportionally! |
Wow ─ 'some authorities'?
The words "bastards" and "complete" fairly spring to mind . . .
|
This is America we're talking about. To quote the 'grandfather' of the modern Republican party, Barry Goldwater:
"... moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
... assuming "justice" means "hurting people we deem to be outside our little circle of friends", which is the way most Republicans would define it.
[Edited on 29-9-2014 by Artemus Gordon] |
Can we leave politics out of this and stick to science? Anyone who wants to go blaming parties should look at the resolution voting record, the repeal
administration, and the history of the prohibition party, before posting, and please keep it to Whimsy. There is a reason I don't go in there. I just
want the science here.
Craft brewer, without definitive analysis, I would be very hesitant to guess at what denaturant is in your ethanol. You admit you didn't go through
every possible one here for us to see, but that is how scientific peer review works. You post all your reasoning and methodologies for us to see
exactly what you did and pass judgment. Have you considered using a qualitative test for ketone presence in your distillate, such as forming an
adduct?
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Craftbrewer
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>>>>>>Craft brewer, without definitive analysis, I would be very hesitant to guess at what denaturant is in your
ethanol.<<<<
Trying very hard NOT to guess, but I will admit this is backyard science at work. Trying hard to use simple logic on observations and what we know
they use as denaturants in metho.
>>> You admit you didn't go through every possible one here for us to see, but that is how scientific peer review works.<<<<
True, BUT the list so far that I have excluded is over 50 compounds long. Many not even denaturants, just benzene derivatives. In all honesty, I would
have thought with the experiments I have said done, the procedures and observations, one could do there own search of likely chemicals and rule them
in or out.
>>>> You post all your reasoning and methodologies for us to see exactly what you did and pass judgment. Have you considered using a
qualitative test for ketone presence in your distillate, such as forming an adduct?<<<<<
Would be happy to do such, if I could test for the formation of that adduct. To do this, I need for instance a logical starting chemical to set the
reaction in process.
One doesn't just blindly add x to y and hope z pops up.
Happy to do any test if I have the ingredients. suggestion welcome.
Will look at possible adducts I can test for
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Chemosynthesis
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| Quote: Originally posted by Craftbrewer |
Would be happy to do such, if I could test for the formation of that adduct. To do this, I need for instance a logical starting chemical to set the
reaction in process.
One doesn't just blindly add x to y and hope z pops up.
Happy to do any test if I have the ingredients. suggestion welcome.
Will look at possible adducts I can test for |
Check out patent US 2813905 A. I have performed similar adduct formations in the past, but you essentially add excess sodium bisulfite, filter our
your insoluble ketone adduct, and then degrade it to return the ketone. This will provide strong evidence of a ketone while allowing some purification
for further tests such as density, boiling point, specific gravity, etc. In the absence of an adduct, you could look into converting some of the
cyclohexane into cyclohexanone and then re-testing. In the absence of spectroscopic/metric instruments, I would find this very convincing.
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Craftbrewer
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>>>>Check out patent US 2813905 A. I have performed similar adduct formations in the past, but you essentially add excess sodium
bisulfite, filter our your insoluble ketone adduct, and then degrade it to return the ketone. This will provide strong evidence of a ketone while
allowing some purification for further tests such as density, boiling point, specific gravity, etc.<<<<
That I can do, for as a brewer I have heaps of the stuff lying arround
>>> In the absence of an adduct, you could look into converting some of the cyclohexane into cyclohexanone and then re-testing. In the
absence of spectroscopic/metric instruments, I would find this very convincing.<<<
You read my mind, as its boiling point makes it dead easy to separate via distillation. Wasn't quite sure how to do this as to oxidise it, one add O2
but evaporates it
Oh shit, brain fart
People are now describing the flavour now after the olive oil addition and shaking (as I stated it before ) as pepermint and solvent like.
Guess what the descriptor is for cyclohexanone is, exactly that. Now I wonder if by shaking the ethanol, with the oil, I have oxidised the cyclohexane
to cyclohexanone.
Gee one more piece of the puzzle in place
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