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entropy51
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Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  | Neon sign transformer+ air: This is the only plausible one, but I can't find a neon sign transformer. Does any of you know where to get one/buy one?
:Searching for more stores, or
:Buying off Ebay (I have to persuade my parents then) |
Neon sign transformers are easy to find. Most neon
shops have a big pile of old ones out back that they will be glad to get rid of.
Failing that, Information Unlimited has a good selection and I have bought a couple from them. They are not giving them away. See http://www.amazing1.com/HV-C-L-Transformers.htm
But personally I think this is a silly way to make HNO3. THe nitrates are out there in the hardware, drug and garden shops.
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weiming1998
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Oh god, they're so expensive! $199? And as I said before, I have looked in drugs stores, hardware stores and garden stores. But all I found was a
fertilizer with only about 10% nitrate, with about 15 chemicals mixed in. All nitrate salts/all potassium salts are soluble, so I can't separate by
precipation.
Also, would a microwave transformer do the trick? Because I got a spare one.
[Edited on 21-1-2012 by weiming1998]
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cyanureeves
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i must agree with entropy51. nitric acid without nitrates and nitric acid without glassware? he understands the oswald process yet he's waiting on
mother nature to supply the nitrates in dung heaps. or perhaps on a volcanic eruption for sulfates to make sulfuric acid to make nitric acid.
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weiming1998
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For the last time, I cannot buy glassware because the chemistry suppliers won't sell me any! Also, I cannot buy the nitrates because it seems to have
been taken off the market in Western Australia! Not everyone lives in countries that have nitrates and glassware available OTC.
By the way, where do you get nitrites for curing meat? The galleria doesn't sell it. I might be able to acidify the nitrites into nitrous acid, which
can be heated to make nitric acid!
[Edited on 21-1-2012 by weiming1998]
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AirCowPeaCock
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I highly doubt there isn't a nitrate source out there for you, and nitrate from fertilizer can be separated, I don't remember how though... And
sulfuric acid can easily be made if you have sulfur and hydrogen peroxide, I've heard 3% can be boiled down to 20-30%, at that point the H2O2 breaks
down faster than the water boils.. I promise, what your looking for is out there! And I'm sure there are places to buy glass ware, surplus stores,
eBay, united nuclear, many many others--I'm at least 10 good sources for you are out there..
BOLD
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weiming1998
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The most annoying part is getting rid of the urea in fertilizer. If I could do that, I could potentially add CaCl to the fertilizer (Ca(NO3)2 is
extremely soluble (300g/100ml when slightly heated), filter, then add Na2CO3 and I'll get pretty pure NaNO3 to boil down and make nitric acid with.
But urea has about the same solubility curve as Ca(NO3)2, so can anyone help me on getting rid of urea?
Perhaps I could add K2CO3, then filter at room temp because KNO3 has a solubility of 36g/100ml at room temperature and urea has 100g/100ml
solubility.Quite annoying job, and yields are going to be low, but it'll probably work. At least better than processing kilos of soil.
Also, would adding ethanol to the solution help KNO3 precipate? Because urea is not only very soluble in water, it is soluble in ethanol. But the
results about potassium nitrate is conflicting. Wikipedia says it is slightly soluble, but other sites say it's insoluble and used to extract
potassium nitrate to make gunpowder.
[Edited on 21-1-2012 by weiming1998]
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by AirCowPeaCock | | I highly doubt there isn't a nitrate source out there for you, and nitrate from fertilizer can be separated, I don't remember how though... And
sulfuric acid can easily be made if you have sulfur and hydrogen peroxide, I've heard 3% can be boiled down to 20-30%, at that point the H2O2 breaks
down faster than the water boils.. I promise, what your looking for is out there! And I'm sure there are places to buy glass ware, surplus stores,
eBay, united nuclear, many many others--I'm at least 10 good sources for you are out there.. |
Conc sulfuric acid I can make from SO2 generator, ozone generator and catalyst (FeSO4+MnSO4) Anyway, with making nitric+hydrochloric+most acids, I
can substitute with Sodium bisulfate, which I have 3kgs of. The main trouble is a distillation stand. I have read somewhere on this forum that
possession of ALL lab glassware is illegal in WA and the results is 5 years in jail, regardless if you're making meth or not.
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 | | I have read somewhere on this forum that possession of ALL lab glassware is illegal in WA and the results is 5 years in jail, regardless if you're
making meth or not. |
Dude, don't believe everything you read on the internet. I suspect that there are more
sources out there than you have found, but I could easily be wrong.
But if this is true, you seriously need to consider another hobby. It's just not possible to pursue chemistry as a hobby without glassware and
chemicals.
If you can't do chemistry, consider physics. I don't think that there are yet purchasing restrictions on batteries, wires, meters, resistors,
integrated circuits and so on and on. Some of the moderators here have said that you should work with the things available to you, not things that
you would like to have, but cannot obtain.
At his earliest opportunity Sir Ernest Rutherford got the hell out of New Zealand. I think you might want to consider the same course of action if
Western Australia is as bad as people seem to think it is.
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weiming1998
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I suck at physics though, can't understand it. I'm mainly good at chemistry and moderately good at maths. I've got some simple glassware. A
borosilicate beaker, 2 smaller flat-bottomed flasks/beakers, and a broken test tube. They were from China, and my parents shipped them. I suspect the
5 years jail thing to be false because if they were illegal, why didn't the government confiscate them? But the chemical restriction is pretty bad,
like the previous post I made about workers questioning people and not minding their own business. Also, my mum told one of her co-workers about me
experimenting in a home lab, the person said to her I should stop ASAP because it's "too dangerous". My mum still supports me somewhat, but gets
scared sometimes because she's scared of chemicals spontaneously exploding. Anyway, I don't want to change hobbies, because this is what I enjoy, and
making me stop is like telling a gamer to stop playing games, ever.
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Pulverulescent
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Can you not just find someone into gardening to get KNO<sub>3</sub> off ebay for you?
I mean, the stuff is a popular fertiliser, after all . . .
From what you've said about W/A, the place sounds like some Oewellian dystopia!
P
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malcolmf
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I'm surprised at the lack of nitrates in the US.
Not exactly a fertilizer, more a trace element supplement, but soluble calcium salts sprayed over foliage and fruit prevents club root in brassicas,
and bitter pit in apples, and in the UK the soluble salt you can buy OTC for this is 2Kg packs of Calcium nitrate. Dissolve, precipitate with a
carbonate salt solution, and if you let it sit for a day or two the calcium carbonate will settle densely enough that you can carefully pour off the
nitrate salt without having to filter. A sulfate should work too, but I suspect calcium sulfate might not settle out so well. Then evaporate your
solution....
Surely you can get calcium nitrate from an agricultural supplier, garden center, or off ebay?
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by malcolmf | I'm surprised at the lack of nitrates in the US.
Not exactly a fertilizer, more a trace element supplement, but soluble calcium salts sprayed over foliage and fruit prevents club root in brassicas,
and bitter pit in apples, and in the UK the soluble salt you can buy OTC for this is 2Kg packs of Calcium nitrate. Dissolve, precipitate with a
carbonate salt solution, and if you let it sit for a day or two the calcium carbonate will settle densely enough that you can carefully pour off the
nitrate salt without having to filter. A sulfate should work too, but I suspect calcium sulfate might not settle out so well. Then evaporate your
solution....
Surely you can get calcium nitrate from an agricultural supplier, garden center, or off ebay? |
I have looked in trace mineral supplements, and a lot of interesting things can be found (FeSO4, CuSO4, elemental S, K2SO4, etc) But nothing related
to nitrate salts. Apart from nitrates, the only nitrogen fertilizer that I know of is urea, of which there was a great abundance, and are in 5kg bags)
Also, chemicals were called by their archaic names and not their proper names (Sulfate of Potash for K2SO4, Slaked lime for Ca(OH)2, etc.) And, I
suppose, it's time to persuade my parents, I guess, to buy things off Ebay. Is shipping expensive?
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent | Can you not just find someone into gardening to get KNO<sub>3</sub> off ebay for you?
I mean, the stuff is a popular fertiliser, after all . . .
From what you've said about W/A, the place sounds like some Oewellian dystopia!
P |
None of my friends from school is going to do that, since they have no idea what a nitrate salt is. It will be gibberish to them. My mum's co-workers
can't help, since a good portion of them seems to be pretty chemophobic (the person that told my mum to stop me from experimenting was in fact a
chemistry teacher before!) So only eBay orders from our family will do. Also, I have seen a lot of posts as well about the extreme strictness of
chemical compounds in Australia. I can assure you that they are not false/exaggerated, it is true. Also, what I find weird is that you can buy KMnO4
OTC, but not KNO3! Anyone that has a bit of knowledge on chemistry can tell you which is the stronger oxidizer.
Also, not relevant to the topic, the science lessons I had at primary school was laughable in the least. In year 5, the teacher was concerned about
"harmful compounds" in a NaHCO3+vinegar volcano! In the final year of primary school, the most dangerous "science experiments" we did was cutting
sugar cubes with knives, then dissolving them in water. Seriously? Also, science class was skipped as much as possible, which I really hated, for
things like P.E, which I really hated as well. Of the few classes I did at school, the subject was so easy I can learn nothing from it and everything
I talked about in the class was over everyone, even the teacher's heads!
Anyway, sorry for ranting. I just feel strongly about this and consider it chemophobia.
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neptunium
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| Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 | The most annoying part is getting rid of the urea in fertilizer. so can anyone help me on getting rid of urea?
Perhaps I could add K2CO3, then filter at room temp because KNO3 has a solubility of 36g/100ml at room temperature and urea has 100g/100ml
solubility.Quite annoying job, and yields are going to be low, but it'll probably work. At least better than processing kilos of soil.
Also, would adding ethanol to the solution help KNO3 precipate?
[Edited on 21-1-2012 by weiming1998] |
did you try with acetone ? urea is unsoluble in acetone if im not mistaken sodium nitrate is..
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entropy51
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There is no lack of nitrates in the United States. They are everywhere. One just has to know where to
look and what to look for.
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Pulverulescent
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| Quote: | | I suck at physics though, can't understand it. |
Even Stephen Hawking has difficulty there!
And this is completely off-topic, but when I was a kid and found out that the hydrogen bomb came about by research in physics I was devastated(?)!
Up till then I had thought that everthing that could go BANG! depended on good old chemistry!
I never quite got over that disappointment, but I do find some solace in the fact that nuclear explosions produce no gasses whatever! 
P
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neptunium
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| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | | There is no lack of nitrates in the United States. They are everywhere. One just has to know where to
look and what to look for. |
i for one like to know where! stump remover is no longer KNO3 (at least at home depot) cold packs contain urea and NH4Cl, fertillizers are double salt
with a lotta junk in them...sorry but the only reliable source of quality nitrate for me is ebay.
i hate to pay the shipping but i never go wrong ,and as long as i order small quantity for anaylisis i hope NOT to land on the no fly list!!!
not a dreamland for home chemist i tell ya.
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by neptunium | i for one like to know where! stump remover is no longer KNO3 (at least at home depot) cold packs contain urea and NH4Cl, fertillizers are double salt
with a lotta junk in them...sorry but the only reliable source of quality nitrate for me is ebay.
i hate to pay the shipping but i never go wrong ,and as long as i order small quantity for anaylisis i hope NOT to land on the no fly list!!!
not a dreamland for home chemist i tell ya. |
Apparently you don't read my posts. Green Light Sump Remover is
still very good KNO3. I just bought 3 pounds of it.
Spectracide was still KNO3 last time I saw it, but I rarely see it. Bonide has always been sodium metabisulfite, but that is useful too.
CVS pharmacy has tons of cold packs that are good quality NH4NO3. I recently bought several, just before I found the KNO3. When I find something
good I stock up just in case it might not be there next time.
I have never found pure nitrate fertilizer here, but I live in a major metropolitan area and I would expect to find those in farming communities.
Other members have recently reported buying large amounts of nitrates at farm stores.
Home Depot has never had much of a chemical selection in this area. The smaller hardware stores have a better offering. You can't expect to find
everything on your shopping list in the first store you visit.
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neptunium
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i did read your post ! the CVS arround the corner here only has the blue brand ..
i am not saying its impossible , just that i am tired of constantly looking arround for what i need. if i come accross something good i get it but i
am not driving accross the county to find it.
also , i am by racial and sorta kinda look arabic...not always the best idea for me to spend too long in the pool chemicals section reading
composition.
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Neil
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most chains have an online msds database. Study in there then go shopping. If the store chain does not have a data base get the name of the chemical
supplier that they get their pool chems from and check to see if THEY have a online data base.
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weiming1998
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Spectricide? Bonide? They don't even sell stump removers here. Also, I have looked around for cold packs, they are very difficult to find and should I
find one, it's always urea.
There's nothing even close to MSDS for Bunnings (a big hardware store in Western Australia), in fact, I went on their website, and I can't even find
any chemicals listed! A search for "sulfur" had no results, even though I bought some sulfur there. Are they deliberately trying to prevent "meth
cooks" from directly surfing the store by internet?
Also, if anyone knew where to buy nitrites, making it to nitrate would be pretty easy, depends if you want nitric acid or just salts for pyrotechnics.
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Neil
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Some stores here are the same. The suppliers for bunnings often do have msds sheets online.
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weiming1998
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But I do not know the suppliers of Bunnings, nor is it listed on the website, nor do I feel it is appropriate to ask the store, and they will not tell
me anyway. The only solution for me is to ask the store for "high nitrogen fertilizers" and hope that they don't lead me to urea.
Or ammonium sulfate.
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 | Spectricide? Bonide? They don't even sell stump removers here. Also, I have looked around for cold packs, they are very difficult to find and should I
find one, it's always urea.
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If you can't get chemicals then chemistry is just not the hobby for you. There's no way around that
reality. Get out of Australia at the first opportunity.
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weiming1998
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Get out? How do I get out of Australia when I'm only 13? I might be able to go to a university in a different country, but for now, I will only be
able to experiment with whatever chemical is here right now.
Anyway, I am trying the topsoil idea (dissolving topsoil in water, filter out precipate, add K2CO3/Na2CO3. I might make some nitrate with this method.
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