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Refinery
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There's that exact issue. It's us civilized people who can behave and we could have otc everything and it'll still be peace on ground.
But then comes all these bastards and gang blokes and honor crime type people who just use whatever they'll get their hands on and use them as
weapons. The acid attacks are a great example why OTC sulfuric acid is a bad idea.
It is a fact that few people will figure out the trouble of getting a business number just to buy a bottle of acid to throw it on some other people,
so the ban is very effective at stopping that kind of stuff happening. On the other hand, people who are willing to go through the trouble, will
usually scale things up considerably. I guess only good thing about organized crime is that they avoid collateral damage and as long as people don't
bother, they don't bother people. They order an IBC of acid and use it low key in some warehouse, and the street acid thugs will only see the 3% speed
paste they'll eventually get their hands on when it has passed through the food chain. Well, I suppose this is how the world works.
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Fulmen
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Not long ago I had to get more sulfuric acid for my anodizing bath. Stopped by a shop specializing in batteries, but of course they wouldn't sell me
any. But then we started discussing battery maintenance, and he quickly realized I probably knew as much as him on the subject. 5 minutes later I left
with 3 liters 
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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outer_limits
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Really? If they'll ban sulphuric acid they will find another substance which is not controlled. This is the same politics as we see regarding drugs.
Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.
It's all about the people, not the things that they use.
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Tsjerk
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Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits  |
Really? If they'll ban sulphuric acid they will find another substance which is not controlled. This is the same politics as we see regarding drugs.
Making something illegal to posses or requiring the license is pointless. It won't change anything.
It's all about the people, not the things that they use. |
Is that the reason why we see so little gun violence outside the USA? Of course I can get a gun if I really wanted, but because they are heavily
restricted here, I don't have one.
Do you think there would be less drugs around if they were legal? Of course not.
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karlos³
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I know its borderline politics...
But switzerland has even more guns than the US, and yet they have much, much less gun violence.
The soldiers even have their guns at home.
So it really is about the people.
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outer_limits
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In my country you can make gun license for sport purposes easily. There are many, many people having it, they own weapons (pistols, shotguns, rifles)
and keep it at home. They can even have it wherever they want, loaded (in case of accidental police control you can say that you're going to the
shooting range). Ok, you can say that still requires to have some paperwork to do.
But you can also buy the replica of black-powder weapon without any restriction. The only inconvenience is that you have to assembly the ammunition on
your own. It's not the problem, everything is public available.
It is available from several years and I heard only about 3 incidents with black-powder weapon replica. Everytime it was used in self-defence.
Regarding drug related context - no, I don't think that there will be less drugs. We all have phenomenon of legal highs.
But we can reverse the question - do you think that making the drugs illegal will change the number of addicts and recreational users? The statistics
could be a little better because some of them will be in jail. But wait, there are drugs too...
Even if they are illegal they are pretty available for everybody. You can order it directly to your home using darknet, it's the same as ordering
books, flasks or reagents. The only thing that such a law can change is ruining somebody's life.
Look at Portugal's and how their situation changed after drugs decriminalization.
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Refinery
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Gun politics do effect gun violence. I hear two statements all the time:
- Any person can easily make a gun from steel bar with rudimentary tools
- Even a child can cook meth
Now that when we require that the weapon is semi-auto with high capacity magazine in normal caliber and it is reliable and reasonably accurate, things
get very complicated really fast. Yes, a slam-fire shotgun can be made in garage, but it doesn't really make any effect as a firearm. Or about meth,
maybe mixing some otc pills with certain other otc ingredients in a soda bottle, but if one wants reasonable amounts of high purity product with high
profit margin - aint gonna happen.
So, control does have effect on outcome, but it can manifest in many ways. For example, gun bans reduce suicide by firearms, but overall suicide rates
are unaffected, hence no lives saved. Gun violence seen to have more correlation with social issues than prevalence of firearms - Switzerland, Nordic
countries, etc. are a fine example of very low gun violence rate even though they have significant private gun ownership rates., compared to countries
like USA. The fact is that majority of gun crime there is related to gang activity and other crimes, and rate of violence among mid-class working
population is comparable to Nordics.
Guns don't have such social recreational value than drugs do, so they are usually a minor trade in developed countries compared to drugs. Illegal
firearms are very hard to come by where I live, and when they do, they are extremely expensive (1000-2000 bucks for an ordinary handgun) and they are
usually from WW2 era or cold war surplus, reactivated or drilled blank firing guns.
If there is demand, there is market. If guns were sold by the kilo, sophisticated workshops would produce them. Lead costs for such a shop are in few
10's of k's and they could pay back within very short time. Look at what drug manufacturing hotspots do.
Sulfuric acid? I could say that, just maybe, ban on selling it on OTC retail outlets in too high concentration could have done the job they intend to.
Low level thugs obtain whatever's cheap and does the job, in UK it is bladed weapons. In USA, just about every thug has a firearm.
For the record: I support 2nd amendment and drug decriminalization.
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Alkoholvergiftung
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I dont see an problem with sulfuric acid ban. You can easy make it by electolysis with an claypot diaphragma from any sulfates.You only need cheap
current.
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NaK
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alkoholvergiftung | | I dont see an problem with sulfuric acid ban. You can easy make it by electolysis with an claypot diaphragma from any sulfates.You only need cheap
current. |
Well then how do you get 96% concentration from that without gassing your whole neighbourhood?
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Alkoholvergiftung
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I dont know what quantity you want to concentrate.But with smaller amounts you dont gas your neibours.
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dawt
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It does, but as bj68 pointed out it comes with a whole new set of headaches, beginning with the location of your lab. It's pretty unlikely your
building is zoned for a lab. Despite what we often feel, amateur chemistry is actually almost entirely unregulated compared to professional chemistry.
The few regulations that do exist are just REALLY annoying.
| Quote: Originally posted by Refinery | | Germany seems to have widespread regulations on many chemicals anyways, at least with the couple of suppliers I've dealt with. Basically everything
that has of any value in chemistry and reacts more vigorously than table salt, is classified as some sort of "professional use only" reagent.
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It's illegal to ship anything with a GHS skull and bones pictogram or those that are toxic to the organs to private individuals in Germany. Sale of
CMR substances to private individuals is banned completely, but the toxic ones still can be sold over the counter or picked up in person at a chemical
supplier.
| Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero | It also mentions potassium nitrate/clorate , calcium nitrate, hexamine,aluminum powders and many others.
A lot of essential chemicals for the home chemist. |
Sale or possession however isn't banned. Only suspicious sales need to be reported according to the regulation.
| Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero | | Serious point about the electrolyte , am I no longer allowed to fill my own battery or have did the moron bureaucrats forgot we actually need that for
you know real life stuff. |
| Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits | | I haven't read the full text - do they want to ban old types of car batteries, those which uses sulphuric acid? They need 30% or even more so it's
over limits. |
Only professionals will be allowed to replace the electrolyte. The batteries themselves (and the electrolyte contained within) are still legal to buy,
own and use though, as they're considered an "article" under REACH and are thus exempted from this regulation.
| Quote: Originally posted by Herr Haber | There's still one thing I do not know though. Will this be enough for purchases from other countries ?
More specifically: UK requires a licences that doesnt exist in my country. Can I, if I'm legit here buy from them ?
I guess I'll just have to ask the question to a UK supplier someday. |
The licenses specific to this regulation apply only to the general public. As a business you will not need a license to purchase the regulated
chemicals.
| Quote: Originally posted by outer_limits | | Really? If they'll ban sulphuric acid they will find another substance which is not controlled. This is the same politics as we see regarding drugs.
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No shit. The drive to ban acids did originate in the UK AFAIR, and they already banned strong acids before this regulation was passed. Officially the
reason for the ban of sulfuric acid by this regulation is it's use in manufacture of TATP and HMTD, but - surprise, surprise - any other acid can be
used as well, rendering this ban entirely useless. Citric acid supposedly works great ffs - have fun banning that. High strength H2O2 is much more
important, and sale to the general public has been banned since 2016. Guess that ban isn't working, so they gotta ban more stuff?! How the fuck they
don't see the idiocy is beyond me.
[Edited on 2020-7-16 by dawt]
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Belowzero
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This is what I currently do with electrolyte which works perfectly fine, however if it would mean I'd have to boil off 90%+ it becomes a different
story. I can imagine the price for a low concentration of acid would still be way too much, obtaining decent quantities would be expensive and a major
pain.
| Quote: |
It does, but as bj68 pointed out it comes with a whole new set of headaches, beginning with the location of your lab. It's pretty unlikely your
building is zoned for a lab. Despite what we often feel, amateur chemistry is actually almost entirely unregulated compared to professional chemistry.
The few regulations that do exist are just REALLY annoying.
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Eventhough I have nothing to hide I'd rather not make it a public affair. The problem with this so called legal/illegal state is that it is not that
easy.
Let's say you do own potential precoursors and they want to inspect the place, depening on the mood of the officials involved they could get you into
some serious trouble.
Even if you are the best kid in the class and do everything by the book, doing completely harmless chemistry there will be some asshole that will find
wrong in what you are doing.
Might as well put up a sign 'Welcome to weird dude doing chemistry in his basement'
Paper chewing lifeforms love stuff like that!
Might be less risky to obtain these substances from the grey circuit.
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Abromination
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Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably
cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban.
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
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Belowzero
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| Quote: Originally posted by Abromination | Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably
cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban. |
H202 is even harder to get in high concentrations and more likely to raise attention , at least where I am from.
I do not know of a feasible way to produce this at home in any reasonable amounts.
If any such thing can be done relatively easy and not requiring more exotic materials then it might be a good way of making sulfuric acid this way.
As mentioned above , apparently the ban on acids was initially inspired by it's requirement for making organic peroxides.
Boiling down electrolyte is a very simple thing to do and since batteries require relatively pure chemicals it is a proper source.
[Edited on 16-7-2020 by Belowzero]
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Fulmen
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Of course it will. Banning a precursor might not make things impossible, but it will make things harder. Sure you can make sulfuric acid from OTC
chemicals, but it's a lot of work. So most people won't even start on such a endeavor.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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Belowzero
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen |
Of course it will. Banning a precursor might not make things impossible, but it will make things harder. Sure you can make sulfuric acid from OTC
chemicals, but it's a lot of work. So most people won't even start on such a endeavor.
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That is exactly the problem here, sulfuric acid is one of those cornerstones.
KNO3 can be made from horse manure, only thing I need now is some horses and a couple months off.
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Alkoholvergiftung
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Alternative you can make very pure h2so4 with lead hcl and CaSo4.
Here is the link its in german.
http://dingler.culture.hu-berlin.de/article/pj139/ar139070
or an very informative Dokumentation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XVt_ca97WE&t=560s
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Housane
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What is the best way for me to make H2SO4 in the UK as basically all acid is banned here and even if you try and buy battery acid you get a substitute
which is distilled water
Green QD's so far
Feel free to correct grammar or incorect knknowledge. We are all learning.
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outer_limits
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fulmen |
Of course it will. Banning a precursor might not make things impossible, but it will make things harder. Sure you can make sulfuric acid from OTC
chemicals, but it's a lot of work. So most people won't even start on such a endeavor.
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And you think if somebody is determined he will not change the tool in case when one is banned? If a terrorist can't bomb the city he will get a truck
and run over the crowd as it was done in Germany two years ago.
Even if sulphuric acid will not be available for public and it will require the license to buy - do you think it will be impossible to buy?
We should think at first about people who we want to stop using such regulations. Are there many mental ill bastards who are blowing up themselves in
crowded places? I don't think so.
But there are organized groups who plan and perform such attacks across the whole world. They use banned already weapon, hand granades and explosives.
They have their people everywhere - in special services, in tech companies.
Do you know that one of the terrorist group used ordinal gmail for communication? They didn't send any message, they knew from somebody inside the
tech company that google hadn't been scanning working copys - so they kept their conversations in a message which have not be sent anywhere but they
have been logging to one account.
So, if you think that will stop any organized group - I think you're wrong. If somebody wants to stop other people from doing bad things - he should
also ban knives, cars and kitchen propane-butane tanks which are easily available and also can be very effective.
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Refinery
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Like Nurdrage said about chlorate cell, you could make things much more rigid, but that'd pay off only if you were making it in 100's of kilos.
Same applies to most other synthesis. An amateur can, indeed, manufacture a single reagent in tens or even hundreds of kilos, but that would require
full workday input, meaning, your only chemistry application would be to synthesize this single product. Sulfuric acid? Sure, build a sophisticated
plant and feed it with non controlled stuff and adjust it for continuous production, and you'll get 100's of liters per month, but what then? There is
no market, merely a black market for homemade sulfuric acid for that matter.
The horsedungium nitrate is similar matter. Concept is simple enough to be carried out with 1700's equipment, but you just ain't doing it in your
apartment, in no way.
Btw, Paris shootings had nothing to do with legal firearms. Yet it made EU ban semiauto rifles and mags over 10 rounds. I honestly consider this kind
of politics a dosomethingism and also an excuse to restrict freedoms due to political liability. The one politician that says "not on my watch" will
take every single freedom and right away if it could be used to cause harm that could cause questions for them. Encryption? Allows terrorists to
message in secret. Home privacy? Crimes can be committed in home, like cooking drugs and bombs. Freedom of expression? Someone could say something
rude, or even worse, question the system.
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Abromination
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| Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero | | Quote: Originally posted by Abromination | Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably
cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban. |
H202 is even harder to get in high concentrations and more likely to raise attention , at least where I am from.
I do not know of a feasible way to produce this at home in any reasonable amounts.
If any such thing can be done relatively easy and not requiring more exotic materials then it might be a good way of making sulfuric acid this way.
As mentioned above , apparently the ban on acids was initially inspired by it's requirement for making organic peroxides.
Boiling down electrolyte is a very simple thing to do and since batteries require relatively pure chemicals it is a proper source.
[Edited on 16-7-2020 by Belowzero] |
Go with whatever works with you, but 3 percent H2O2 can be evaporated using a clean and smooth glass beaker on low heat without appreciable
decomposition. It is quite easy to concentrate it above 15 or 20 percent, confirmed by density.
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
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BJ68
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| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ | Yes it is highly unlikely.
If you only register for the VAT number(which is rather done at the tax office, "Finanzamt"), they don't even care about what sort of business you
have or not have.
That only becomes relevant for other things. |
A few years ago I had a talk with the people from Sigma-Aldrich, because the where here in the University....at this time (the law has changed, you
have to renew it every few years) I had from my apprenticeship (pharmaceutical technical assistant) the licence (in Germany) to sell chemicals to the
public. My question was, why I could not buy legal (no permit, not against a law e.g. narcotic, explosive) chemicals as private and if I have a
business there is no problem with it.
Answer was if you have a business other authorities will watch you....
For example Kremer Pigmente wants the trade certificate (Gewerbeschein) and not the VAT-Number, for Sigma-Aldrich it´s the same: "Ferner senden Sie
bitte Ihre aktuell gültigen Unternehmens bzw. Institutsunterlagen (z.B. Gewerbeschein oder Handelsregister Auszug) zusammen mit Ihrer Erstbestellung"
and if you request that trade certificate you have to specify your business and that will be reported to other authorities see "Anmeldeweg" in https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewerbeanmeldung#Rechtsfragen
e.g. Bauaufsichtsbehörde or Berufsgenossenschaft and that guys will make inspections.
VAT-Number is not enough...
bj68
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Eddie Current
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First time I have seen this.
I am amazed that a chemical as useful as H2SO4 can even be banned from use.
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Belowzero
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| Quote: Originally posted by Abromination | | Quote: Originally posted by Belowzero | | Quote: Originally posted by Abromination | Electrolytic sulfuric acid isn't a great way to go, I prefer making it from hydrogen peroxide and sulfur dioxide. Its a huge pain, but sustainably
cheap. After doing a few runs I find that I have enough to concentrate to around 96%.
It is impossible to find sulfuric acid here due to the cost of hazard shipping, I pity all who will be effected by this ban. |
H202 is even harder to get in high concentrations and more likely to raise attention , at least where I am from.
I do not know of a feasible way to produce this at home in any reasonable amounts.
If any such thing can be done relatively easy and not requiring more exotic materials then it might be a good way of making sulfuric acid this way.
As mentioned above , apparently the ban on acids was initially inspired by it's requirement for making organic peroxides.
Boiling down electrolyte is a very simple thing to do and since batteries require relatively pure chemicals it is a proper source.
[Edited on 16-7-2020 by Belowzero] |
Go with whatever works with you, but 3 percent H2O2 can be evaporated using a clean and smooth glass beaker on low heat without appreciable
decomposition. It is quite easy to concentrate it above 15 or 20 percent, confirmed by density. |
Don't get me wrong , if this is a viable method then it might be decent alternative!
Just out of curiosity I will conduct some experiments with it.
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Fulmen
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What you fail to realize is that it's a numbers game. Every time you limit options the number of people capable of circumvent them drops. And the risk
of detection usually increases.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
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