| Pages:
1
2 |
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  |
| Quote: |
I am looking for maximum energy and explosive speed. By adding aluminum to this explosive compound, I want to see the explosion rate would increase or
not
|
From this, it seems that he is looking for something that isn't necessarily thermobaric or plastic. It also seems that he is looking for high
explosion energy and high "explosion rate" (which I would interpret as VOD). |
If that is the case, then ETN/PETN is all you need. Adding anything extra will sacrifice the VOD or maximum detonation pressure.
Thermobaric compositions sacrifice VOD and maximum detonation pressure for a vacuum and SUSTAINED detonation pressure.
|
|
|
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan |
I appreciate your very detailed explanation. But combined effect explosives have both a thermobaric effect and a high gurney velocity. Only
possible with an active binder.... In fact... the gurney energy can be higher then without the metal powder... that’s impressive!
|
I agree. PETN1933 had reached out to me in a PM to discuss thermobaric compositions, that's why I was talking about them. To be clear, using an
active binder is desirable if the goal is to maximize the VOD/detonation pressure. If the goal is to maximize the thermobaric effect,
vacuum/sustained blast wave, then excess fuel is a must. Using an active binder in a thermobaric composition would negate the maximum
thermobaric effect by reducing the fuel density of the composition.
|
|
|
Rocinante
Hazard to Others
Posts: 121
Registered: 13-11-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you are looking for maximum detonation pressure and velocity, just melt cast ETN. Mixing it with anything is a receipe for bubbles, once the molten
mass cools, significantly reducing pressure/velocity. Also, those mixes would require pressing in molten state, which is a no-no. Melt cast only 10 g
at time.
If you are looking for a combined effects explosive, i.e. a melt cast with 15 % of Al that burn almost all the Al in just 7 expansions, use 15 % Al
and some 30 % PETN + 55 % ETN, don't press and make sure that your explosives are pure (double recrystalization). Don't press it in molten state,
don't agitate it. Sure, you'll reach lower VoD but being safe is more important. 1.5 density is OK, the pressure at that density is still high enough
to crack those Al particles to burn rapidly at the sub-milisecond scale.
If you are looking at a thermobaric, just melt cast your ETN and surround it with a thin film of 30 % of Al, i.e. 60 g ETN and 30 g Al (smaller TBX
charges don't rly work well due to rapid cooling of the cloud). Sure, some lower performance than a direct melt cast but much safer.
Melt cast the stuff in sillicone rubber, use a big bucket of hot water and be in different room after you pour in the water, just to be safe. Also,
you should melt cast the combined effecrs explosive in 5 - 10 g batches - just to stop it from serious DDT if anything goes bad.
If you are looking for a cheap FAE bang, make a foil housing 80×80 cm wide and 50 cm high, use a plate and pour in 45 ml of Et2O, let it evaporate
and detonate it via en electrical 3 g+ ETN blasting cap placed at the outside of the foil (total ETN mass, like 1 g in blasting cap and 2 g of ETN in
booster).
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]
|
|
|
MineMan
International Hazard
Posts: 1012
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante | If you are looking for maximum detonation pressure and velocity, just melt cast ETN. Mixing it with anything is a receipe for bubbles, once the molten
mass cools, significantly reducing pressure/velocity. Also, those mixes would require pressing in molten state, which is a no-no. Melt cast only 10 g
at time.
If you are looking for a combined effects explosive, i.e. a melt cast with 15 % of Al that burn almost all the Al in just 7 expansions, use 15 % Al
and some 30 % PETN + 55 % ETN, don't press and make sure that your explosives are pure (double recrystalization). Don't press it in molten state,
don't agitate it. Sure, you'll reach lower VoD but being safe is more important. 1.5 density is OK, the pressure at that density is still high enough
to crack those Al particles to burn rapidly at the sub-milisecond scale.
If you are looking at a thermobaric, just melt cast your ETN and surround it with a thin flame of 30 % of Al, i.e. 60 g ETN and 30 g Al (smaller TBX
charges don't rly work well due to rapid cooling of the cloud). Sure, some lower performance than a direct melt cast but much safer.
Melt cast the stuff in sillicone rubber, use a big bucket of hot water and be in different room after you pour in the water, just to be safe. Also,
you should melt cast the combined effecrs explosive in 5 - 10 g batches - just to stop it from serious DDT if anything goes bad.
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante] |
Someone did their reading
He is correct, the aluminum can react by 7 expansions. 
You sacrifice some VOD for higher gurney velocity.
I do have a question, is it safe to melt cast ETN with Al powder? Especially with how sensitive ETN is when molten?! That would make me very
nervous.... but I scare easily. Still....
|
|
|
Rocinante
Hazard to Others
Posts: 121
Registered: 13-11-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Leftover acidity due to bad recrystalization or long storage (decomposition) can lead to a reaction with the aluminium, causing fire and possible DDT.
It is pretty unlikely, though. Also, you should be in different room and casting 10 g should do no serious harm even an a case of full DDT. Just fill
in the water (some 10l) and get back an hour later.
Yes, high Pdet explosive can crack those aluminium particles hard. Deformed, exposed Al will burn quickly. Have you read about this new coating https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26390-9 ?
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]
|
|
|
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan |
I do have a question, is it safe to melt cast ETN with Al powder? Especially with how sensitive ETN is when molten?! That would make me very
nervous.... but I scare easily. Still.... |
That's the real question right there. It is why I use HTPB and blend my ETN first, then add the metal powder after the ETN is thoroughly coated.
Mixing ETN when it's melted with AL powder is just way too scary for me. One positive thing about risking mixing melted ETN and AL is that if you are
making 100g or more and it does detonate, you sure as hell won't know it
|
|
|
MineMan
International Hazard
Posts: 1012
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante | Leftover acidity due to bad recrystalization or long storage (decomposition) can lead to a reaction with the aluminium, causing fire and possible DDT.
It is pretty unlikely, though. Also, you should be in different room and casting 10 g should do no serious harm even an a case of full DDT. Just fill
in the water (some 10l) and get back an hour later.
Yes, high Pdet explosive can crack those aluminium particles hard. Deformed, exposed Al will burn quickly. Have you read about this new coating https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26390-9 ?
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante] |
Great find!!!
Since everyone is in a spoon feeding mode... is this something we can do in the home lab?
|
|
|
Petn1933
Hazard to Others
Posts: 106
Registered: 16-9-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
I thank everyone who participated in the discussion. Good information has been exchanged on this subject which is certainly interesting to everyone.
Thank you
|
|
|
MineMan
International Hazard
Posts: 1012
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante | Leftover acidity due to bad recrystalization or long storage (decomposition) can lead to a reaction with the aluminium, causing fire and possible DDT.
It is pretty unlikely, though. Also, you should be in different room and casting 10 g should do no serious harm even an a case of full DDT. Just fill
in the water (some 10l) and get back an hour later.
Yes, high Pdet explosive can crack those aluminium particles hard. Deformed, exposed Al will burn quickly. Have you read about this new coating https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26390-9 ?
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante] |
Rocinante, they claim the Al increases TNT VOD to 9000m/s yet they are not bold enough to test this claim... I am suspicious. Anyone here want to give
it a try?
|
|
|
wessonsmith
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 15-2-2018
Location: elsewhere
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | | Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante | Leftover acidity due to bad recrystalization or long storage (decomposition) can lead to a reaction with the aluminium, causing fire and possible DDT.
It is pretty unlikely, though. Also, you should be in different room and casting 10 g should do no serious harm even an a case of full DDT. Just fill
in the water (some 10l) and get back an hour later.
Yes, high Pdet explosive can crack those aluminium particles hard. Deformed, exposed Al will burn quickly. Have you read about this new coating https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-26390-9 ?
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante]
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante] |
Rocinante, they claim the Al increases TNT VOD to 9000m/s yet they are not bold enough to test this claim... I am suspicious. Anyone here want to give
it a try? |
$280 plus shipping for 100g of 80nm Al powder, that's expensive.
|
|
|
MineMan
International Hazard
Posts: 1012
Registered: 29-3-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hmm. It can be obtained much cheaper from China... but, this could be done with 2 micron flake.
It seems the biggest issue is having a consistent AIH concentration.... paging Rosco!!!
|
|
|
C6(NO2)5CH2CH(CH3)N(NO2)2
Harmless
Posts: 43
Registered: 4-4-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rocinante | If you are looking for a cheap FAE bang, make a foil housing 80×80 cm wide and 50 cm high, use a plate and pour in 45 ml of Et2O, let it evaporate
and detonate it via en electrical 3 g+ ETN blasting cap placed at the outside of the foil (total ETN mass, like 1 g in blasting cap and 2 g of ETN in
booster).
[Edited on 15-11-2019 by Rocinante] |
Have you tried this? I'm surprised 3gm of etn would initiate a gas cloud.
Regarding the nanoaluminum, dornier 335 A had a way to grind micron and submicron particles. Passivating those with iodate would be cool.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
|
|
|
Rocinante
Hazard to Others
Posts: 121
Registered: 13-11-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I would like to, in the future. So far I've had succes with only an e-match and 20 l of air with 2.8 g ml of diethyl ether (large water bottle). Loud.
No way 3 g of ETN won't initiate a propper Et2O/air mixture.
|
|
|
chemist1243
Hazard to Others
Posts: 170
Registered: 7-8-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
hmmmmm. im not very sure about adding aluminum. i've heard ETN is a bit sensitive to metals, but, if you insist on adding any metal powders, id
recommend you plasticize the mixture first. use something like paraffin and vasaline.
|
|
|
LardmanAttack
Harmless
Posts: 37
Registered: 7-8-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
I mean, you could just use NG or EGDN to dissolve the nitrocellulose, but I agree with everyone else that the NC won't do much.
|
|
|
LardmanAttack
Harmless
Posts: 37
Registered: 7-8-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
I wouldn't recommend binding with vaseline, in my experience it tends to completely desensitize ETN and other explosives to the point where you can't
even set them off with a blasting cap easily. I would try to use liquid rubber or silicone.
[Edited on 28-11-2019 by LardmanAttack]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
