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caterpillar
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Quote: Originally posted by MineMan  | I have two dueling pistols. The only catch is they must be filled with an energetic you made.
Catapiller. I personally would fill it with NiAGP and AP for gas generation. |
I made only black powred. All but it that I made were explosives, inappropriate for guns.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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twelti
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Hi caterpillar, I'm readin more of the Agrawal/Hodgeson text. It is pretty interesting (even for a non-chemist). What I'm not sure is how the use of
P2O5 would affect practical synths of RDX or HMX or anything for that matter. I get that it agressively sucks up water. i haven't been able to find
where it says that dilute NA+P2O5 can be substituted for WFNA. It seems that where it is used, it is still use with highly concentrated NA. I
imaging there must be some potential advantages of using it, but will it allow me to ditch the WFNA? Or, put another way, does the phosphoric acid
created when the P2O5 sucks up the water interfere with subsequent reactions?
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caterpillar
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti | | Hi caterpillar, I'm readin more of the Agrawal/Hodgeson text. It is pretty interesting (even for a non-chemist). What I'm not sure is how the use of
P2O5 would affect practical synths of RDX or HMX or anything for that matter. I get that it agressively sucks up water. i haven't been able to find
where it says that dilute NA+P2O5 can be substituted for WFNA. It seems that where it is used, it is still use with highly concentrated NA. I
imaging there must be some potential advantages of using it, but will it allow me to ditch the WFNA? Or, put another way, does the phosphoric acid
created when the P2O5 sucks up the water interfere with subsequent reactions? |
This is just simple basic chemistry. Anhydrides react with water and produce the corresponding acid. Make the corresponding experiment with a small
amount of acid- let's say, 20 gr. Some info hardly can be found in the literature. For example, you may read in many texts that you must use white
acid- free of NOx. But when I used hexamine dinitrate I successfully made RDX, using the usual product of distillation- yellow nitric acid. That
yellow acid burned pure hexamine, yeah.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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twelti
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| Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar |
This is just simple basic chemistry. Anhydrides react with water and produce the corresponding acid. Make the corresponding experiment with a small
amount of acid- let's say, 20 gr. Some info hardly can be found in the literature. For example, you may read in many texts that you must use white
acid- free of NOx. But when I used hexamine dinitrate I successfully made RDX, using the usual product of distillation- yellow nitric acid. That
yellow acid burned pure hexamine, yeah. |
Yes I get that, but if you already are starting with distilled ("yellow" i.e. RFNA), how is using the P2O5 any better than, say Urea and/or air to get
white NA?
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caterpillar
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti | | Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar |
This is just simple basic chemistry. Anhydrides react with water and produce the corresponding acid. Make the corresponding experiment with a small
amount of acid- let's say, 20 gr. Some info hardly can be found in the literature. For example, you may read in many texts that you must use white
acid- free of NOx. But when I used hexamine dinitrate I successfully made RDX, using the usual product of distillation- yellow nitric acid. That
yellow acid burned pure hexamine, yeah. |
Yes I get that, but if you already are starting with distilled ("yellow" i.e. RFNA), how is using the P2O5 any better than, say Urea and/or air to get
white NA? |
I got distilled (very conc- 98-100%) nitric acid. It was yellow- obviously, there were NOxs, but not much. RFNA contents up to 30% of NOx and usually
is used as an oxidizer in liquid propellants. You have 60+ percent nitric acid. I had no need in P2O5, but you do have. Again- I started to add
hexamine and what I saw was NOx emission. Later I used dinitrate instead and I got RDX. Add dinitrate to a strong acid (weak plus the necessary amount
of P2O5) and wait for half of one hour. Then you may drop the liquid in a large volume of cold water, but it would be better to perform so-called
oxidization. Assume you have 100 gr of nitric acid with dissolved hexamine (dinitrate). Prepare 30 gr of water and a small amount of your diluted
nitric acid. Drop slowly that solution and water simultaneously into the weak acid. it will boil and emit NOx. But finally, you'll get RDX of better
quality without unstable linear fragments (and larger crystals).
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar | | Quote: Originally posted by twelti | I think we are going around in a circle. Regarding the use of 70% NA, you said:
"Or add some phosphorous pentoxide to your weak acid"
It sounded as if you were saying the synth could be done using the weaker acid, by adding the P2O5. From your other comments and from the source you
cited, it looks like the weaker acid won't work.
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??? Sorry? When the appropriate amount of P2O5 has been added to weal (63-67%) HNO3, it becomes STRONG. Excess of water is bind and you have HNO3 +
H3PO4. So simple. |
P205 is here simply used to bind water. Same as oleum (S03 in H2SO4).
You can bind water from your "weak" acid or, as the synth mentioned above says use fuming nitric acid AND P2O5 to bind the water from the reaction. I
suppose you get better yields in more anhydrous conditions.
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twelti
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OK, so there IS a route to RDX that does not involve making fuming NA. Hexamine dinitrate can be made with 70% NA and then final nitration to RDX
with again 70% NA+P2O5. If I'm understanding correctly. Thanks for your patience.
Can P2O5 be used similarly for nitrating pentaerythritol? ... nitric esters?
[Edited on 1-6-2019 by twelti]
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caterpillar
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti | OK, so there IS a route to RDX that does not involve making fuming NA. Hexamine dinitrate can be made with 70% NA and then final nitration to RDX
with again 70% NA+P2O5. If I'm understanding correctly. Thanks for your patience.
Can P2O5 be used similarly for nitrating pentaerythritol? ... nitric esters?
[Edited on 1-6-2019 by twelti] |
Yes. At least, I think so. When you add P2O5 to 70% nitric acid, you get highly conc acid- even with N2O5 (depends on the amount of P2O5). Oh, you may
try K-method, described by Hudgdson and Agrawal.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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twelti
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I had always heard about P2O5 being expensive but I found it at Firefox for around $21/lb.
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caterpillar
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Oh, mate, when I was young I bought it in the special shop with chems. 800 gr cost like 2-2.5 liters of beer. Phenol was twice cheaper. And in 90th I
bought 12 kg of hexamine- the price was more than ridiculous. But me brainless idiot kept it at the place where the water came from the roof just on
the box. Well, I got the confirmation of hi solubility of hexamine...
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti | OK, so there IS a route to RDX that does not involve making fuming NA. Hexamine dinitrate can be made with 70% NA and then final nitration to RDX
with again 70% NA+P2O5. If I'm understanding correctly. Thanks for your patience.
Can P2O5 be used similarly for nitrating pentaerythritol? ... nitric esters?
[Edited on 1-6-2019 by twelti] |
Man, I've been reading most of your posts and I can promise you that you will LOVE reading all 4 tomes of Urbanski.
All your (legitimate) questions will get their answers in the relevant chapters and more. Also, you will gain quite a lot of understanding.
Several pathways for every EM you can think of, lab settings, industrial settings, historical anecdotes, everything you need to know about
sensitivity, vod etc.
I know it's not the first time I'm saying this on the forum but those books are as much about history as they are about chemistry.
Oh, and look at the dates when they were written then read Agrawal.
Quite the jump in history and the complexity of current or specialized EM's 
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twelti
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Having eard so much about Urbanski, I hsve scanned it/them. So much information! For a non-chemist it can be overwhelming. Im learning though. I
found Cooper (Explosives Enigineering) to be quite informative and good starting place in many respects.
I still cannot find a solid answer on whether dilute NA and P2O5 can be used to nitrate HDN. I have some P2O5 on the way...
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MineMan
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Cooper is good. Cooper has stuff most other books do not. I think the absolute best book is the chemistry of high energy materials by the prof in
Germany who has like 30 grad students. His book is cheap for a textbook to. It is the best organized and most informative and up to date. Don’t get
any books by the Indian author arwgal. I have one of his books too much money for too little.... it’s too generic and just to technical for no other
purpose of being technical. It’s like he’s trying to show off.
There is a 2019 version of the book I mentioned. Again. I heave many textbooks on the subject. The German one is nearly all of them combined and
it’s a fun read.
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caterpillar
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti | Having eard so much about Urbanski, I hsve scanned it/them. So much information! For a non-chemist it can be overwhelming. Im learning though. I
found Cooper (Explosives Enigineering) to be quite informative and good starting place in many respects.
I still cannot find a solid answer on whether dilute NA and P2O5 can be used to nitrate HDN. I have some P2O5 on the way... |
Damn, mate, are you an amateur or theologist? Make this experiment. It is very simple. Not all that is written in books is the truth either- some
texts skip important details. (to say nothing about dear Jared...)
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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twelti
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| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | Cooper is good. Cooper has stuff most other books do not. I think the absolute best book is the chemistry of high energy materials by the prof in
Germany who has like 30 grad students. His book is cheap for a textbook to. It is the best organized and most informative and up to date. Don’t get
any books by the Indian author arwgal. I have one of his books too much money for too little.... it’s too generic and just to technical for no other
purpose of being technical. It’s like he’s trying to show off.
There is a 2019 version of the book I mentioned. Again. I heave many textbooks on the subject. The German one is nearly all of them combined and
it’s a fun read. |
Klapotke right.
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twelti
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| Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar | | Quote: Originally posted by twelti | Having eard so much about Urbanski, I hsve scanned it/them. So much information! For a non-chemist it can be overwhelming. Im learning though. I
found Cooper (Explosives Enigineering) to be quite informative and good starting place in many respects.
I still cannot find a solid answer on whether dilute NA and P2O5 can be used to nitrate HDN. I have some P2O5 on the way... |
Damn, mate, are you an amateur or theologist? Make this experiment. It is very simple. Not all that is written in books is the truth either- some
texts skip important details. (to say nothing about dear Jared...) |
Is that a Double Dog Dare? Ok Mate, I'll try it - cautiously.
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Microtek
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Twelti: When you add P2O5 to concentrated (ca. 65%) nitric acid, the P2O5 is hydrated and forms phosphoric acid. This uses up the water that is
diluting your nitric. If you add enough, all the water will react in this way and you will have produced fuming (anhydrous) nitric acid diluted with
phosphoric acid. You will have produced fuming nitric acid in situ. This can certainly be used for nitrating polyols such as PE and likely
also for RDX production from hexamine. However, note that the hydration of P2O5 is VERY exothermic, so if you simply dump the calculated amount into
the dilute nitric you will likely end up with a cloud of NOx, HNO3 and steam and maybe a broken beaker.
P2O5 is often used in conjunction with WFNA in order to produce N2O5 (P2O5 dehydrates two molecules of HNO3 producing the acid anhydride N2O5) which
is often preferred over HNO3 as a nitrating agent.
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caterpillar
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek | Twelti: When you add P2O5 to concentrated (ca. 65%) nitric acid, the P2O5 is hydrated and forms phosphoric acid. This uses up the water that is
diluting your nitric. If you add enough, all the water will react in this way and you will have produced fuming (anhydrous) nitric acid diluted with
phosphoric acid. You will have produced fuming nitric acid in situ. This can certainly be used for nitrating polyols such as PE and likely
also for RDX production from hexamine. However, note that the hydration of P2O5 is VERY exothermic, so if you simply dump the calculated amount into
the dilute nitric you will likely end up with a cloud of NOx, HNO3 and steam and maybe a broken beaker.
P2O5 is often used in conjunction with WFNA in order to produce N2O5 (P2O5 dehydrates two molecules of HNO3 producing the acid anhydride N2O5) which
is often preferred over HNO3 as a nitrating agent. |
There is one simple question, however- which acid will occur under such conditions (63% HNO3 + P2O5)- HPO3, H4P2O7 or H3PO4. I think that the last
one, but not sure.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Microtek
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It will be some equilibrium mixture of several of those species. The exact proportions are difficult to model, and would probably be dependent on
temperature and would not be constant during the nitration or nitrolysis reactions. So, if you needed to know, I think it would be best to establish
it experimentally.
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twelti
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Yes, I'm aware of the heat that will be generated adding the P2O5. My main question is about the effect if any of the phosphoric acid on any
nitration process. For example , the elimination of the various straight chain products in the RDX nitration that normally occurs when you heat it to
50 degrees (if I understand correctly).
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Tsjerk
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never mind
[Edited on 4-6-2019 by Tsjerk]
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caterpillar
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In the worst case scenario, you'll add a new topic to "Life after detonation"
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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