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woelen
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What makes me sick is the ever returning crappy war between 'creationism' and 'evolutionism'. This is not an interesting discussion anymore. Current
evidence makes clear that there has been a long evolutionary process which has taken hundreds of millions of years.
BUT, at the same time, this evolutionary evidence is NOT a proof that God cannot exist, or that God is something which sprouted from the mind of men.
The theory of evolution only is incompatible with a strict young earth creation point of view, but it is NOT incompatible with (christian) religion in
general. This is something which many people do not want to see, they simply (implicitly) say: religion == young earth creationism.
I personally think that both atheists and religious people can be excellent scientists in their own field of science. I myself am a christian and I do
believe in the presence of God and the work of Jesus. At the same time I feel myself like being a scientist and am deeply interested in the wonders of
nature.
Science asks and attempts to answer questions about the HOW and WHEN, religion asks and attempts to answer questions about the WHY. These need not be
incompatible. Narrow minded people introduce the incompatibility. I have seen many narrow minded christians, but an equal number of narrow minded
atheists. Their only agenda seems to be bullying the other side. Such a struggle only has loosers.
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bquirky
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What testable predictions does the god hypothisis make ?
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zed
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Woelen,
I'm not a Christian, but I respect individuals that attempt to emulate Jesus. I feel the same respect for the good spirited practitioners of other
faiths.
The problems arise from the corruption of faith by dogma. The dark side of human nature constantly strives to control the thoughts and actions of
others, for personal power and profit.
bquirky,
The existence of a higher power is not a hypothesis. You probably haven't visited the South Pole, but folks tell you they have seen it, and you
accept their reports as being plausible.
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bquirky
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well the south pole hypothisis predicts that the earth is round this is testable
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Sedit
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Without religion there is no science.
They are both one in the same only differ in there ability to morph due to new knowledge.
More then likely long ago someone looked up at the sun and the moon and asked, "what is it" the attempts to answer it may not appear it on the surface
but they are science. Most religions said they where sky deitys and likened them to god. Theres good odds the god of the bible is just that, the sun.
But as time went on and we got a better understanding someone discovered that that is really a flaming ball of gas up there. The scientist understood
and followed this lead looking for further evidence where as the religious exclaimed its a flaming ball of gas made by the hand of god.....
We have religion to thank for all of science and they can co-exist as long as they leave each other alone and allow one another to grow at there own
pace never forcing the hand of the other. Thankfully long ago religion sponsered the works of many alchemist looking for insite on the nature of gods
creation giving us chemistry. This is what happens when they work together. However at the same time many who practiced the same exact art at the same
time with a different explination for what they where doing where burned at the stake. .. This is an example of what happens when they interfear with
each other.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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DDTea
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So has anyone read through Dr. Kowalski's page yet?
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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psychokinetic
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Yes, and Dr. Kowalski appears to be one of the few people who do not equate god with religion. Sheesh people.
“If Edison had a needle to find in a haystack, he would proceed at once with the diligence of the bee to examine straw after straw until he found
the object of his search.
I was a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor.”
-Tesla
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blogfast25
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Quote: Originally posted by woelen  | What makes me sick is the ever returning crappy war between 'creationism' and 'evolutionism'. This is not an interesting discussion anymore. Current
evidence makes clear that there has been a long evolutionary process which has taken hundreds of millions of years.
BUT, at the same time, this evolutionary evidence is NOT a proof that God cannot exist, or that God is something which sprouted from the mind of men.
The theory of evolution only is incompatible with a strict young earth creation point of view, but it is NOT incompatible with (christian) religion in
general. This is something which many people do not want to see, they simply (implicitly) say: religion == young earth creationism.
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Spot on. That is EXACTLY the way I would put it.
As regards the 'struggle' you're referring to, it rages mainly in the US and mainly for political reasons (the so-called 'Culture Wars'. No one will
actually make me believe the leaders of the 'Creationist' movement actually believe dinosaurs walked in the Garden of Eden!
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blogfast25
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | Without religion there is no science.
They are both one in the same only differ in there ability to morph due to new knowledge.
|
Nonsense. Right from the dawn of Mankind there will have been those who were unsatisfied with 'hidden parameter theories' like religion. But once,
long ago, religion did offer something as a way to explain the world in the absence of better, tested and verified knowledge.
Religion starts from far more 'axioms' than science and has often shown itself to be reluctant to accept empirical evidence, all the while promoting
as 'truth' things that remain totally unproven. Even the Jesus thing remains completely unproven. A legend that may be true...
Religion gets transmitted from one generation to the next, like a ‘virus’ to quote Dawkins. That is how it survived and how clearly rational
people like woelen can still believe in the Jesus myth without evidence being presented…
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
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Thread Moved
27-11-2010 at 15:00 |
starman
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To return to the opening question"can science and religion coexist peacefully".Science is an attempted,admittedly imperfect, description of reality
and will peacefully coexist with any philosophy.Religion is an imposition on reality for those who imagine themselves the "chosen " people and will
forevever be in conflict with "chosen" people of a different intractible doctrine.
For those thread contributors who like to claim Einstien as religious,you might want to examine his application for Swiss citizenship.In the space for
religion he wrote "none"
Chemistry- The journey from the end of physics to the beginning of life.(starman)
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arsphenamine
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It is not the case that they are or are not polar opposites
since they service such disparate parts of the human psyche.
They are linked in that they are uniquely human constructions but they
don't work usefully in service of each other's venue.
Put another way, religion and science are manifestations of human
neuroanatomy and societal maturation. They cannot manifest without a
few hundred years of social continuity. While ignorance, superstition,
hatred, and fear are manifest in perpetuity, they are mitigated by
knowledge of religion and science when their societal context has
progressed beyond feudalism.
I'm hoping someone will mention the "emulation" brain function recently
recognized by neuroanatomists, the one that let's you ask, "what would I
do if I were him?", but that may be hoping for too much.
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DDTea
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If you think about it, both science and religion have served a common purpose of advancing societies. Both have been exploited for various political
goals, but in their purest form, I'd say they have similar goals.
Religion is not entirely about faith. It's a way of carrying out your day to day life. For example, don't drink alcohol, keep clean (i.e., do not
toss your excrement out the window), and generally treat each other as you would like to be treated. Many of these things were probably the results
of observation about society. For example: "I see that guy is too fond of wine and cannot contribute to his household or the community. Maybe
alcohol is bad." The philosophy was different, though. So while some of the religious edicts may have originated from attempts to build a healthy,
functional society that would not die from common ailments, others were in regard to morals and how people ought to conduct themselves.
Basically, as I understand it, it was saying that natural laws are truly *universal* and that they govern human interactions as well. In fact,
that's a big part of the logic behind Shariah.
Has anyone seen the movie "Idiocracy"? I'm reminded of this one part where the main character is trying to persuade the world that they should give
their plants water and not sports drinks. Society could not grasp his logic or arguments, so instead he just claimed to be able to speak to the
plants and that they told him they wanted water. That's what religion reminds me of 
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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Sedit
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| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | Without religion there is no science.
They are both one in the same only differ in there ability to morph due to new knowledge.
|
Nonsense. Right from the dawn of Mankind there will have been those who were unsatisfied with 'hidden parameter theories' like religion. But once,
long ago, religion did offer something as a way to explain the world in the absence of better, tested and verified knowledge.
Religion starts from far more 'axioms' than science and has often shown itself to be reluctant to accept empirical evidence, all the while promoting
as 'truth' things that remain totally unproven. Even the Jesus thing remains completely unproven. A legend that may be true...
Religion gets transmitted from one generation to the next, like a ‘virus’ to quote Dawkins. That is how it survived and how clearly rational
people like woelen can still believe in the Jesus myth without evidence being presented… |
I have to admit blogfast you have confused me quite abit seeing as how you quoted what I said, stated that it was nonsence , then repeated exactly
what I said in different words.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Magpie
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I wanted to read his story but the link in his post is broken. So I looked him up on Wiki which provides a good link. His story is fascinating and
once I started reading I couldn't stop.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Vogelzang
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Scientists developed laser guided missiles which we can use against Al Qaeda. So, yeah, science and religion can co-exist peacefully.
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DDTea
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| Quote: Originally posted by Vogelzang | | Scientists developed laser guided missiles which we can use against Al Qaeda. So, yeah, science and religion can co-exist peacefully.
|
Scientists developed the laser, energetic materials, and rockets.
Engineers developed the laser guided missile for expensive defense contractors and made money off of killing 
And AQ isn't a religion.
"In the end the proud scientist or philosopher who cannot be bothered to make his thought accessible has no choice but to retire to the heights in
which dwell the Great Misunderstood and the Great Ignored, there to rail in Olympic superiority at the folly of mankind." - Reginald Kapp.
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zed
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There is no question, that according to the evidence that we normally perceive, the Earth and the Universe itself, are quite old.
The kinky part of the equation is that from a higher perspective, the whole shebang is being created right now.
You, Me, and everything we know.....ALL skillfully woven out of the fabric of consciousness itself.
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Rosco Bodine
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoFaFy3uyXo&fmt=18 I've Been Searchin' So Long
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qCW34a2k3U&fmt=18 Old Days
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5bhBSb92LY&fmt=18 Saturday In The Park
all is not lost .......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM-XhQeFzW4&feature=relat... You're The Inspiration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS4VKa1zpVc&feature=relat... Glory Of Love
Yes, Virginia, There Is A Santa Claus
http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WPKdzaYkz4&fmt=18 TSOP - MFSB (1973)
[Edited on 30-11-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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quicksilver
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | Without religion there is no science.
They are both one in the same only differ in there ability to morph due to new knowledge.
|
I believe that's a productive way to view the issue.....
Quite a few scientists were agnostic. Few were confirmed atheists. It actually takes a degree of faith to be a confirmed atheists but a to a
questioning mind, agnosticism comes very naturally. Some scientists believed in a "greater" concept; putting no bounds on how that may be interpreted.
A deity concept is somewhat different than questioning the existence of "that which is greater". However I don't think that a deity concept is
somehow a mistaken notion. Both aspects of "that which is greater" and atheism cannot be proven without a doubt. What's more there is a difference
between organized religion and having an open mind enough to wonder if there does exists a "greater element than observable nature".
I think perhaps many people confuse the aspect of aggressive evangelism with religion per se' or "a greater thing" than observable nature.
Not all religions or people of belief are evangelistic.
This may be analogous to the question of can people of different tastes in food get along? One does not HAVE to negate the other. The concept may
simply be different than originally perceived.
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The WiZard is In
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Sure — there are the Religions of Global Warming and Scientology.
djh
----
Religions die when they are proven wrong.
Science is the record of dead religions.
Oscar Wilde 1894
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Sedit
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The meaning of that statement lies in the idea that I feel the part of the mind that looks for answers is also that which creates religion. For
instance a dog does not ask if its right or wrong to chase a squirl and subsequently eat it if caught yet humans start to ask if such an act is
barberic and inhuman. As well I have little faith in that same dog looking up at the sun and seeing anything other then a bright light and warmth
where as the human mind seems to need more information before its satified with an answer.
The only difference I see between a science and religion is that a scientist will keep asking questions and be willing to toss out a hypothesis that
was wrong in favor of a better theory. Mainstream religion in itself does not allow such flexability and will hold tight to a belief after theres
proof its wrong. Even though both the science and the religion both started from a common factor. The thoughts "what" and "why".
Isn't science and religion what set us apart from other beast in nature. Which do you feel came first? The answers not as superficial as it sounds. It
would take atlest one scientist to teach the first religion so perhaps what religion does is hold knowledge until another scientist comes along to
question that knowledge.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Rosco Bodine
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Religion is a love story. Science is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.
People can walk and chew bubble gum.
Even motorcycle riders need love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hEfcawx6Fc&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNjzzDNIJWw&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDsVCYLyQXs&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfL_48K2ZFY&fmt=18
[Edited on 30-11-2010 by Rosco Bodine]
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hissingnoise
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Rosco, I think that there badge has gone to your head . . .
VrooomVrooom . . .
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Rosco Bodine
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Hmmm......if the perceivable universe appears to be a cosmic crime scene,
then all humanity should be evidence technicians, crime scene investigators
dedicated to the task of getting the goods on the perpetrator who is responsible
so that perpetrator can be held accountable and brought to justice ....riiiight
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | Hmmm......if the perceivable universe appears to be a cosmic crime scene,
then all humanity should be evidence technicians, crime scene investigators
dedicated to the task of getting the goods on the perpetrator who is responsible
so that perpetrator can be held accountable and brought to justice ....riiiight |
The Bishop of Rome is claimed to be (by some)
Gods representative on earth — as such can he be
sued for Acts of God?.
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