| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
I think you are jumping all over Chris in an unjustified way Roscoe. First I highly doubt a narc will have patents to their credit and your name
calling is unfair. The man was possibly a good source of information to members here and I believe he was concerned for the safety of others, a
reasonable sense of caution. Picric acid is about twice as sensitive as TNT. Its sensitivity can be compared to that of hexogen. This is when pure
and dry.
Picric acid can easily form metal picrate salts that are even more sensitive and hazardous than the acid itself and correct me if I am wrong but I
thought he said it was in a jar. Most jars have metal lids. Crushing the dry crystals usually sets it off and this will happen if they are in the
threads when the lid is unscrewed. Compounding this is the unknown of the metal composition of the lid and whether or not metal picrates have been
formed. Chris likely thought about this the day he saw the jar.
Also he possibly knew it sublimes slowly (where yes the vapor could leak from threads and react with metals nearby). Given it's age how much dangerous
metal picrates could have formed on objects around it? If I saw an old jar like that I sure as heck would not want to pick it up and I would be
concerned about whoever ended up buying it oblivious to the hazzard. Usually it was stored under water in glass with a glass stopper for safety but
even then dry crystals could form which could crush and set the whole thing off when the stopper was twisted.
Given the age and unknowns involved I for one do not think he was unjustified in his fears. You cannot possibly equate your knowledge of this chemical
under optimal conditions with the same safety concern for something as old and improperly stored as the jar he was talking about.
All that aside I will not debate these issues it is pointless. The man was telling a story and it should have been taken as such, not used as a
childish point of attack. In short whether you were right or he was, you owe the man an apology. He was a good member, an asset here who hopefully
will calm down and stay.
Edit to add PDF:
[Edited on 12-30-2009 by IrC]
Attachment: alert_picric_acid.pdf (75kB)
This file has been downloaded 841 times
|
|
|
The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
Member Is Offline
Mood: .
|
|
I have seen industry reports stating incredulous things such as silver nitrate and ammonia forms silver fulminate (not silver nitride as is actually
the case). Just because industry states it does not mean it is correct. Nor does a JACS paper saying the same, errors are expected to occur at some
point in every publication, and when the editor does not know better things go unchecked.
Picric acid is one of those cases, the rumors about high sensitivity of dry picric acid come from accidents when it was stored in containers with
metal caps, allowing picrate salts to form. The pure acid is only slightly more sensitive than TNT.
On a lab scale, with proper precautions(avoiding metals) picric acid is another reagent. On industrial scales there may be merit to the addition of
water, as large sizes lead to behavior (such as what could happen in a fire) that is not what would be expected on lab-size quantities.
In the past I have stored picric and styphnic acids, dry, in screw top vials. I guess I am just lucky to be alive   .
Accounts do not get deleted. This tangent has been split into a thread of its own.
[Edited on 30-12-09 by The_Davster]
|
|
|
The_Davster
|
Thread Moved
29-12-2009 at 23:53 |
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by IrC  | | I think you are jumping all over Chris in an unjustified way Roscoe. First I highly doubt a narc will have patents to their credit and your name
calling is unfair. The man was possibly a good source of information to members here and I believe he was concerned for the safety of others, a
reasonable sense of caution. Picric acid is about twice as sensitive as TNT. Its sensitivity can be compared to that of hexogen. This is when pure
and dry. |
Have you been reading the same posts as I have been reading? What we just saw is a demonstration of academic snobbery pulling a wagonload of attitude
and ignorance that won't hear any correction on a technical point that really is pretty basic stuff....but he is the expert, so don't dare any of his
imagined apprentices here dare say a word to correct the "professor" on bullshit. Exhibit A: Never and I mean never have I seen picric acid in a jar
having a metal lid, and even if it were to be the anomaly where a metal lid was there, not one of the known metallic picrates would form in sufficient
quantity even if the entire lid was converted to a metallic picrate, to result in a sufficient quantity of picrate capable of causing the detonation
of the mass of remaining PA, it simply isn't going to happen not yesterday, not today, and not tomorrow. The third reference the fellow cited was
posted here in this forum nearly four years ago by Axt and has not one thing to do with moisture related detonability sensitivity or concerns. This
"roping off a city block" stuff
is high drama for the uninformed and gives more bad press to chemists, and the irony here is you have someone with credentials who should know better
contributing to the myth, and now by arguing the point making the matter worse. He is a lawyer as well as a chemist and I recognize the political
regulatory language I heard for what it was and I owe no apology. If it walks like a narc and quacks like a narc, it's a narc. This isn't the Watch
Mr. Wizard show and we are not little kiddie apprentices who should not talk back.
| Quote: |
Picric acid can easily form metal picrate salts that are even more sensitive and hazardous than the acid itself and correct me if I am wrong but I
thought he said it was in a jar. Most jars have metal lids. Crushing the dry crystals usually sets it off and this will happen if they are in the
threads when the lid is unscrewed. Compounding this is the unknown of the metal composition of the lid and whether or not metal picrates have been
formed. Chris likely thought about this the day he saw the jar.
Also he possibly knew it sublimes slowly (where yes the vapor could leak from threads and react with metals nearby). Given it's age how much dangerous
metal picrates could have formed on objects around it? If I saw an old jar like that I sure as heck would not want to pick it up and I would be
concerned about whoever ended up buying it oblivious to the hazzard. Usually it was stored under water in glass with a glass stopper for safety but
even then dry crystals could form which could crush and set the whole thing off when the stopper was twisted. |
You are buying into the myth that I can't buy because I know it is pure garbage.
| Quote: |
Given the age and unknowns involved I for one do not think he was unjustified in his fears. |
No you want to
give him a mulligan and indulge this hysterical crap as if it had
a rational basis.
| Quote: |
You cannot possibly equate your knowledge of this chemical under optimal conditions with the same safety concern for something as old and improperly
stored as the jar he was talking about. |
We are talking about a jar of picric acid, not a case of twenty
year old dynamite that is sweating
liguid nitroglycerin.
| Quote: |
All that aside I will not debate these issues it is pointless. The man was telling a story and it should have been taken as such, not used as a
childish point of attack. In short whether you were right or he was, you owe the man an apology. He was a good member, an asset here who hopefully
will calm down and stay. |
If I owed an apology I would gladly offer it. The intelligence
of several members here and their direct knowledge is a lot higher than is the presumption of the person who was arguing in error and who then became
more assertive and insulting. I have seen this kind of controversy before so I will
also state for you that the exact same attitude is often encountered among professionals who take offense at anyone suggesting that they don't know
their business as well as they think, and they will react by asserting even more a wrong idea and argue it forever. Just go back and read and you will
see that kind of argument being ventured to replace legitimate debate was not my strategy.
I could waste the time digging out all the real world testing data to substantiate what I have said, if I had the time to waste, and it won't change
the myth that was gotten from a text or inferred from misunderstood regulations, but never gotten from direct experience or experiment. But don't
believe me of course, according to rumor now I only know what I think I know and should not trust my lying eyes.
With regards to that OHS Alert! material it is pure propaganda and there is a political motive because
the state is sensitive about anything which can potentially
be weaponized. Now why would the state be concerned
about anything that could be weaponized if the state was
dealing truthfully and ethically with its citizens ? That is
the question which is watermarked indelibly on every page of such conspicuous propaganda.
DISINFORMATION is alive and well but it is only any influence on people who are not otherwise better informed.
The following YouTube video is 100% PROPAGANDA
which is linked in the pdf posted by IrC above. To me
this video is quite hysterically hilariously funny and also
pathetic in terms of the intellect represented by those
sheeple who actually participated and bought this load
of complete bullshit . Bullshit disinformation propaganda
is precisely what this video and that pdf are, one big LIE.
A chemistry degree from that place is my toilet paper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK6Eoassjg
[Edited on 30-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
Ironically you hold as a degree from a university your credentials, not realizing everything I posted I pulled from various universities. So I can
only surmise all universities are wrong other than the one you went to whichever one that was. What difference is all knowledge if you still have the
attitude towards others which you display. Chris said it well, he was merely telling a story. Common sense dictates a wary approach to an old bottle
containing a pound of explosive and Chris was rightly concerned about said explosive being for sale to the unwary general public. All he did was tell
people about it and the authorities took all the precautions not Chris. If you are going to impress anyone I suggest you do so with maturity. I have
nothing more to say on this as no one here approves of this hijacking and merely by replying again I would only be aiding the mindless conflict. An
ounce of common sense is worth more to me than a pound of old explosives.
[Edited on 12-30-2009 by IrC]
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Exhibit B: There is a huge difference between what a person thinks as a result of reading text and what a person knows from direct experience. What
I am saying about picric acid I know from direct experiments, dozens of experiments done over several decades of time generating dozens of pages of
data and accumulating a few hundred pages of files, not a bunch of guessing or parroting whatever I read and chose to prioritize because of how some
author colored things.
There is nothing mindless at all about my exposing the disinformation and propaganda which absolutely is afoot here, and if you are buying into it,
then that is your problem and there is assuredly a lot more state authored
crap which you are deceived by as easily and completely. Hell it is simple
enough of a matter to put to the test so then why keep talking about it
as if it was a matter for debate ......which is a lie in itself, because this
matter is already settled business for anyone who has done any experimentation
to learn for themselves just what the truth is. That is the place from which
I am speaking having the benefit of direct firsthand knowledge. Others may wish to make it an emotional issue or something personal, but it is only
science to me,
and no I'm sure it is not politically corrected science but rather the science which
tells the truth rather than seeks to deceive. Experiment will easily show who
is being scientific versus who is being political and lying for political motive.
I have no worries being discredited while there are plenty of others who should worry about explaining themselves.
This entire discussion seems totally bizarre ....it's like some evil spell has been cast over the forum and folks are mesmerized into some kind of
"eat shit up with a smile" trance ....like they are hypnotized . Hoping everybody is just a bit dull from all the rich food over the holidays and
that
things gradually come back in focus. Otherwise we shall
have to send for an exorcist .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utgCo86lpo&fmt=18 There Is A Mountain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92HjH1GG3ro&fmt=18 Season Of The Witch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCCjv2OiTxE&fmt=18 Mellow Yellow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyV0SKTl_JM&fmt=18 Hurdy Gurdy Man
[Edited on 30-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enhanced
|
|
The writer in the 7th ed. of Bretherick's is also against overconcern, but also makes the very same points that IrC does about metal picrates, and dry
acid with glass stoppers. We can choose Rosco's word over that of authors with an interest and with access in some way to accident reports, or not.
|
|
|
hissingnoise
International Hazard
Posts: 3940
Registered: 26-12-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: Pulverulescent!
|
|
Is that guy for real---a little bit of rough-and-tumble and he's threatening to pick up his marbles and run straight home?
Calling him a narc, though, was a bit extreme.
And I think you're probably exaggerating the insensitivity of TNP somewhat, but since I've never handled the material, I'm just voicing a hunch!
[Edited on 30-12-2009 by hissingnoise]
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
I suspect the real truth is somewhere in between. I'm guessing that dry picric could be detonated accidentally, but I think this
must be unusual or else we would hear more about it. Metal picrates are another story, but I agree with Rosco that I have never seen it bottled with
a metal cap.
I do know that 40 years ago I worked in an analytical lab where picric was just another reagent on the shelf. It was shipped dry, we stored it dry,
and we weighed it out with metal spatulas. The waste solutions went down a sink that had a Pb drain pipe. We had no idea that there could be any problem with it. And there never was. This was common practice in those days,
trust me.
Would I store dry picric acid nowadays? Absolutely not.
I do find it troubling that Mr. Whewell joined an amateur forum and immediately starts telling us that organic chemistry is too dangerous for us kids
and that ordinary folk should be locked up for making picric acid. What's wrong with this picture?
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
| Quote: | | The man was possibly a good source of information to members here... |
If you read this thread
closely, you may not be so sure.
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack | | The writer in the 7th ed. of Bretherick's is also against overconcern, but also makes the very same points that IrC does about metal picrates, and dry
acid with glass stoppers. We can choose Rosco's word over that of authors with an interest and with access in some way to accident reports, or not.
|
Nothing is completely idiot proof because newer and bigger idiots are raising the heights of stupidity's limit every day, and just when you believe
nothing could top the last Darwin Award, a new and improved bigger stupidity comes along to show you what happens after you were thinking already
about a previous example of stupidity, if that doesn't beat all.
But picric acid is about as close to idiot proof as an energetic material can be.
There are no "anomalously sensitive" crystal forms of picric acid. There are no magical or mysterious nuggets of internally stressed jar residents or
stopper clingers which lurk waiting to claim an unsuspecting victim .....it is all of it bullshit with a capital B .
Try to keep a sense of humor, it is a good survival tool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l38blGqVeHc dumb blonde humor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e89HBOdrNyc&feature=relat... dread humor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40DykbPa4Lc&NR=1 enlightenment humor
[Edited on 30-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
dann2
International Hazard
Posts: 1523
Registered: 31-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hello,
Me thinks ChrisWhewell was a bit of a flash-in-the-pan...........................................................................without the flash
Anyhow, taking issue with Rosco Bodine regarding Blond jokes, I think it is an ABSOLUTE DISGRACE.
Dann2
Three ladies escaped from prison, a Burnett, a Red Head and a Blond.
They were running helter skelter accross ditches, hedges, fields, swamps with some prison officers in persuit.
They came upon a shed with some sacks in it and the burnette suggested that they each climb into a sack.
So they did.
The prison officers came along and give the first sack a kick and the Burnett let a great big noise like a cat getting kicked.
Prison officer says, move on, there's a cat in that sack.
Kicked the next sack and the Red Head let a howl like a kicked dog.
Move on shouts the prison officer, there's a dog in that sack.
The prison officer kicked the remaining sack and the Blond shouts.......SPUDS.
|
|
|
chemoleo
Biochemicus Energeticus
Posts: 3005
Registered: 23-7-2003
Location: England Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: crystalline
|
|
I wonder though why this policy is in place - they also deliver dinnitrophenylhydrazine wet as a common lab reagent , and of course ammonium
dichromate (which has an explosive sign ) and ammonium nitrate, and for the
first never heard schools being evacuated when they were found dry.
In other words, the H&S officers dont go mental on just any explosive lab chemical (yet). Therefore, there must have been
incidents with wet to dry PA in schools/labs etc.
Never Stop to Begin, and Never Begin to Stop...
Tolerance is good. But not with the intolerant! (Wilhelm Busch)
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
What more than likely has happened is there have been disastrous incidents involving entirely different materials or processes and there was a
kneejerk response based on a misidentification of the cause in some after incident report and finding which was written by someone who didn't know
what they were doing, but who was tasked with the job of writing a report and suggesting some sort of regulatory intervention to prevent a
reoccurrence of such an incident.....
so they generated a bullshit report, and then a bunch of ignorant bureaucrats ran with it from there, as the regulators who will save the day and make
us all safer.
The minor technicality is that the whole thing is nonsense.
|
|
|
entropy51
Gone, but not forgotten
Posts: 1612
Registered: 30-5-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: Fissile
|
|
Mistaken Identity ?
| Quote: | | What more than likely has happened is there have been disastrous incidents involving entirely different materials or processes and there was a
kneejerk response based on a misidentification of the cause in some after incident report and finding which was written by someone who didn't know
what they were doing |
Interesting that you should say that, Rosco. I think I've found a perfect example. In googling for picric explosions I found this case report of an industrial explosion attributed to picric. Reading this report, I don't think it was due to picric at all. Sounds like pretty
wild speculation to me, although they say picric was identified in the residue. OK, I'll bite, but I still think it due to something else.
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
There is certainly a matter of scale that causes different concerns for industrial quantities and for munition magazines, where there are legitimate
issues that may be real for huge quantities of a material, but are concerns no longer applicable for physical chemistry reasons when the quantity is
scaled down
below a certain threshold amount. The thermodynamics are different for
defining what is risk in storing tons of a material, so that the same concerns
do not necessarily withstand scaling down to apply equally well to a pound of the same material in a jar. A geometric reduction of risk applies to
the reduced quantity in storage for many hazardous materials, to a point that for many things
the concerns which may be very real on an industrial scale simply do not apply to a smaller increment of the same material , and that is most
definitely the case here. So the argument about what is good for industry is also applicable in
a different setting is simply a false argument. Many storage regulations and handling advisories are quite different depending upon the quantity of a
hazardous material which is in consideration. There is not a direct correspondence and translation from the industrial scale concerns to the
smaller laboratory scale concerns, where only some or none of the same
hazards may directly parallel, it really depends on the particular material involved.
But generally there is an increased hazard for increased amounts and a reduced hazard for smaller amounts and the relationship is geometric in the
variation.
Anyway it has been declared by me before that picric acid is energetic chemistry 101, and the controversy which has arisen here is a testament to
those who aren't past the fundamentals concerning good old picric acid. No one has to simply trust what I have said about picric acid and just take
my word for it, but can easily enough put the material to experimental tests and see for themselves what are the
properties and what are not. I challenge anyone to even deliberately initiate picric acid using a metallic picrate for its initiation in an
environment different from that of a reenforced detonator which supplies strong confinement,
try it a few times and see if you can even get a significant
partial detonation of the picric acid, much less a complete detonation. Do your own tests to see just how much provocation it requires to initiate
picric acid, and get back to me. I have seen picric acid subjected to the impulse not just of initiating explosives, but subjected to the impulse of
high order detonation of boosters having sufficient energy to
entirely vaporize the picric acid to a yellow smoke cloud like a smoke dye and the picric acid did not detonate even from
that kind of insult and provocation, simply because it was
not held strongly confined enough to couple the detonation wave but quenched instead, even at temperature high enough that the picric acid was
vaporized in combination
with being subjected to a shock which one might expect would assuredly cause a sympathetic detonation ....yet did not result. I know that picric acid
is damn insensitive and it requires a correctly engineered assembly and special conditions that are very specific in order to accomplish even its
deliberate detonation. Those conditions are not provided by scenarios involving a dropped bottle or a removed bottle closure, it simply never
happened and never will.
[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
Mann_F_G___Saunders_B_C-Practical_Organic_Chemistry_Longoman-4thEd-1960_
This is the source I get some of my opinion from and without regret I trust this source more than anyone here. Just under 600 pages, read pg 189. Too
large to upload ( 28.8 mb) but can be acquired on the following link.
http://rapidshare.com/files/58267747/Mann_F_G___Saunders_B_C...
I have read some of the threads including the one entropy51 mentioned and yes I am not picking the best person to defend but I believe true scientists
should maintain a certain decorum and when I see rants and unjustified name calling going on which remind me of someone's flashbacks to the third
grade either I play the adult and say something or ignore it and go somewhere better. The problem with the latter is on the internet better places are
rare enough that when you find interesting sources of good science some effort at improving things you do not like are worthwhile.
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
There have been no rants nor unjustified name calling. Should anyone trust what is read in a text over what their own observations and experiments
and tests reveal in the way of confirmation of what is published, knowing that verification is really the only way of confirming whether or not a text
is authoritative ? By experiments a person may learn more than what is published and they may even be able to improve upon what is published or
otherwise go beyond what is published. So there is no reason to enshrine any particular text as being the last word, until the peer review includes
yourself as a participant. It doesn't get any more adult. As they say the proof is in the pudding.
I read page 189 and there is nothing there but a general common sense protocol about apothecary jars not being used to store friction sensitive
materials, which makes sense in regards to picric acid to the extent of sparing the possible loss of glassware due to a cracked ground joint caused by
the snap of any crystals which could react there, but that would not lead to a mass detonation of an entire contents of picric acid, and would only
result in a broken neck for the jar or an entirely broken jar and a spill if the crack continued past the ground joint. If the jar was filled with a
primary explosive, things could be very much different and the entire contents could go off. There is nothing I am reading there which is really in
dispute.
It was not my intention to make Mr. Whewell feel unwelcome here. It very definitely was my purpose not to take any shit from him. I am very sensitive
about liberty and rights and
I am also sensitive about others who presume the orbit they occupy intellectually presents an opportunity to talk down to me, and that I should simply
"trust" the better judgement of
others who are in actuality not in a higher orbit with regard to the matter in discussion. My answer there is No and no
is just as good an answer as is yes, and either one may be appropriate to the circumstances. This was one of those.
[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
IrC
International Hazard
Posts: 2710
Registered: 7-3-2005
Location: Eureka
Member Is Offline
Mood: Discovering
|
|
What loses me is the conflicting information. I have looked at a few dozen books and a few hundred web pages and so far do not find what I want. This
is a compilation of various tests which clearly spell out the hazards and circumstances under which the tests were performed. I do not see mention of
glassware injury I see the word explosion. To what extent? If I read your posts correctly you are saying (using 2kg and 39 cm which I have found so
far): a layer is on a plate. You drop a 2 kg hammer on the plate. Only the material in the impact zone detonates leaving the surrounding material
unexploded? Where is a comprehensive set of test data from an accredited source to be found. While you sound very sure of yourself I for one would not
trust my safety to your opinion, no offense intended, what I want to read is carefully compiled data in say some laboratory somewhere. As I said they
say risk of explosion, not how big. Nowhere do I read they are concerned for loss of a little glassware, they talk like the consequences are serious.
So this is what I seek, a thorough study well done and very comprehensive. I am sure it must exist outside of casual relation of say your personal
experience.
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
I am not just sure of myself, I am certain of myself on this matter. There wouldn't be explosions of picric acid under these mythical dangerous jar
scenarios which have been ventured as alarmist propaganda upon the inexperienced or uninformed or misinformed. And yes you have it right about the
drop hammer test and typically there won't even be all of the sample fully detonated even between the plates, it will just be a pretty good snap or
slight bang from the few or single crystal which does react and the remainder will be simply pulverized to dust and scattered or pancaked to a sliver
left sticking to the plates. It is entirely different for a primary explosive or a near primary explosive. But for a difficult to initiate secondary
explosive like picric acid the effect is very feeble to a hammer test. And friction absent some impact is unlikely to do anything except grind the
material to a dust.
Here is the Federoff article from PATR
BTW I have no problem with righteous skepticism, but I should have some credibility for all the good references I have provided over the years and for
providing verifiable information going beyond the references as well. It was me who uploaded the completed PATR and I have gone beyond the information
there also. I am not about misinformation and I am not about information control either, even though I haven't and won't share everything I know for
good security reasons. For those of you who are so enamored of narcs that you want to play the devils advocate, just be aware that sometimes there
may be more truth in that cliche than you may imagine. I call 'em like I see 'em and I have a long track record of being right, not 100% perfect no,
but way
better than 99.
Attachment: Federoff Vol. 8 PATR picric acid .pdf (962kB)
This file has been downloaded 1562 times
[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
grndpndr
National Hazard
Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Does anyone find this to be a strange attitude coming from the same man who just warned us of the dangers of PA? Besides having uncomfortable
political overtones seemingly posted by a phishing militia type or perhaps gov type, you be the judge.
From the thread a "Unique Synthesis of Ammonium Nitrate" by Doug the Mapper
qoute by Chris Whewel ;""Interesting theory.Not long ago every farm town had a silo of NH4NO3 in town stocked w/tons.If I were part of a movement
which wanted to disarm
the populations of the west,then which threats would be on top of that movements list to remove from the populace?My guess is that removing nitrate
silos would be on top of the list since a disarmed populace is unable to resist.
I think your stated position regarding people blowing thier fingers off or demolishing
buildings as an excuse to remove fertilizer silos is untenable,given the long safe history
on nitrate fertilizer usage over several decades and the wrongful use of such materials
is unsupported by the facts of history.It was a silent grab of hidden defenses."unqoute. To young to recall OK city?Certainly texas city long before
most of our memorys.Obviously NOT a history afficianado in fact the 2 posts are so dissimilar as to make one wonder if the one person wrote both.I
have no comment/opinion regarding Mr Whewell's post.
[Edited on 31-12-2009 by grndpndr]
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
I have a genuine contempt for prohibitionists and regulators and especially for property taxation and licensing which reduces what are and should be
absolute rights to nothing more than purchased permissions granted from de facto overlords who have only legitimate authority to be public servants.
I am very old school concerning personal liberty and its defense. The only legitimate authority which a government has is what it receives by the
consent of the governed. For too long and in too many ways it is a global plague that governments forget that the people are their master and not the
other way around. It is those in error
who benefit from correction, not those who had it right all along.
[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
dann2
International Hazard
Posts: 1523
Registered: 31-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hello,
| Quote: Originally posted by IrC | What.............[] While you sound very sure of yourself I for one would not trust my safety to your opinion, no offense intended, what I want to
read is carefully compiled data in say some laboratory somewhere. ....................[]
|
Me neither!! 
You come accross a bottle of Picric acid:
What is it's history? Perhaps careless workers have added substances back into the bottle likely to cause problems. What is its age, storage
conditions, purity the day it was made etc.
Dynamite is perfectly safe stuff. Tons and tons of the stuff have been used in all sorts of circumstances without any problems. So long as it is used
properly it is fine. If it were used as a lab reagent (I know its a concoction of different materials) there would need to be a strict regime as to
when to throw out the stuff, how to store it, what not to mix/contaminat it with etc etc etc.
If you came accross an old bottle of ('non-weeping') dynamite of unknown age, storage conditions contamination, first day quality etc etc etc, only a
great big fool would argue that the stuff posed no danger and could not possible harm anyone unless handled with the utmost disrespect.
It may be one month old, it may be forty years old. You don't know.
Same goes for the 'bottle of Picric acid for sale at the garage sale'.
If it comes with a detailed history of its existance (it won't of course) then read that history and be informed and be careful.
The manner in which old unknown bottles of Picric acid are being protrayed in this thread is that it would be perfectly safe to take the 'old bottle
of Picric acid at the garage sale' home and let the kids kick it around the lawn (so long as they don't hurt their toe's).
YOU DON'T KNOW IT'S HISTORY STUPID (as Clint said about the economy)
Don't end up doing a Mr Blobby. Stay safe.
Dann2
Attachment: Picric Acid and Picrate Salts - Articles - CANUTEC - Transportation of Dangerous Goods - Safety - Transport Canada.mht (127kB)
This file has been downloaded 1151 times
[Edited on 31-12-2009 by dann2]
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
Here we go now on a journey into the surreal, it may not even be picric acid in the jar at all .....so now what ?
Wait ...don't tell me....I've got it now, if it looks like picric acid and walks like picric acid, and quacks like picric acid , it's not picric acid
at all .....it's just a yellow duck
There you have it folks, what does the United States Army's ordnance laboratory know compared to the Canadian transportation safety regulatory agency
? Obviously Canada has a great propaganda ministry and must use the same writers as does the U.S. They have a sense of humor, I'll give them that.
Now you have heard the joke so you can understand the punch line at last, or at least I hope you can get this. The entire premise that shelf
quantities of picric acid should be kept damp for storage is the false notion upon which all the rest of the inventory keeping inspection logs and any
potential crystal growth problem scenarios is predicated.
Picric acid is perfectly storage stable in the dry condition so why introduce what is claimed to be a problem with deliberately added moisture ? It
isn't rational, and yet if
you understand that the crystals which may grow in the presence of moisture aren't really dangerous anyway, and that this entire propaganda for public
consumption is total bullshit, the people who actually do know what is true there, know it doesn't make any difference wet or dry, it is not
a bona fide problem either way.
[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine]
|
|
|
grndpndr
National Hazard
Posts: 508
Registered: 9-7-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine | I have a genuine contempt for prohibitionists and regulators and especially for property taxation and licensing which reduces what are and should be
absolute rights to nothing more than purchased permissions granted from de facto overlords who have only legitimate authority to be public servants.
I am very old school concerning personal liberty and its defense. The only legitimate authority which a government has is what it receives by the
consent of the governed. For too long and in too many ways it is a global plague that governments forget that the people are their master and not the
other way around. It is those in error
who benefit from correction, not those who had it right all along.
[Edited on 31-12-2009 by Rosco Bodine] |
I think my points been missed,My personal beliefs are in the main libertarian and I couldnt agree more with the above.
However since H.S. openly made thier belief known that 'right wing' conservatives as well as returning servicemen are in effect suspect.(Which they
quickly retracted)Was the post I qouted (disarmament) innocent but perhaps unwise or an invitation for antigovernment rants?
Being primarily a chemistry forum political discussion suggesting use of an energetic material for "defense" presumably against gov entitys makes me
uncomfortable in the extreme.
[Edited on 1-1-2010 by grndpndr]
[Edited on 1-1-2010 by grndpndr]
|
|
|
Rosco Bodine
Banned
Posts: 6370
Registered: 29-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: analytical
|
|
No one should ever misinterpret me as being anti-government. Quite the contrary I am pro common sense government and pro ethical government, but I am
anti-tyranny and anti-corruption and so far as is possible I am anti-taxation and anti-regulation. I believe that what most people want from
government most is a good letting alone, where their freedoms and their pocketbooks are concerned, and they don't want to be handed the bill for
glorious crackpot schemes of crooks and dreamers whose idea of a perfect world is where everything experienced has some sort of government supervision
and involvement.
Government ought to be a welcomed competent and honest servant of people, a welcome partner, not an incompetent and dishonest and unwelcomed
unconsented dominator and master making its threats and impositions. It is the contrast that is the difference there like the difference between
good food and poison.
My family helped found and build this country and has continually helped arm it and defend it. The principles which are my heritage are legal,
constitutional, sworn to be upheld, and non-negotiable.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
