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Sedit
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No cookery, although it does appear that we are being over run by those wanting to be the first to cry foul. The fellow just asked of a use for
Formamide and not all amination results in psychoactive compounds. I feel this is a way better use of the compound then attempting to generate Carbon
Monoxide, formic acid, and HCN combined because all of those can be generated thru other means where as if one has Formamide they can directly
influence a carbonyl compound.
LMAO if you think the fellows over at psyconaut talk about the Leuckart all the time your highly mistaken as this one goes right over most of there
heads.
[Edited on 23-6-2009 by Sedit]
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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zed
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As I recall, Formamide is much more expensive than either Ammonium Formate or its parent...Formic Acid. I don't recall any specific restrictions on
selling Formamide. Though I haven't checked.
Perhaps you should sell it and purchase something more useful.
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itchyfruit
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WOW, it seems as thou i've started a bit of an argument 'sorry'
Having looked up Leuckart reaction it would appear formamide has some rather dubious uses which would then leave me with a bit of a dilemma with
regards to selling it as i would have no idea what that person would use it for (don't get me wrong each to their own) but i wouldn't want the boys in
blue banging on my door accusing me of supplying something dodgy. That said as far as i'm aware it's not restricted and compared to some chemicals not
particularly expensive so i doubt anyone would really need what i have.
However i did find out that it is used in DNA/RNA to isolate strands or something, i haven't advanced to this yet but i'll probably save at least some
for when i do. As for the rest i may try and swap it for something i'd have more use for.
All though i like the idea of making some HCN i have no real use for it (and certainly no gold to dissolve) and your right i would most likely end up
poisoning my self or some other poor bugger!!
But glad i asked i have certainly learnt some interesting stuff
THANKS 
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entropy51
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Formamide is listed on the DEA Special Surveillance List:
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/chem_prog/advisories/surve...
"The Comprehensive Methamphetamine Control Act of 1996 makes it illegal for any person to distribute a "laboratory supply," which is defined in the
final rule as a "listed chemical or any chemical substance, or item on a special surveillance list published by the Attorney General, which contains
chemicals, products, materials or equipment used in the manufacture of controlled substances and listed chemicals"
Obviously specific to the United States, or persons shipping thereto.
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itchyfruit
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Quote: Originally posted by entropy51  | Formamide is listed on the DEA Special Surveillance List:
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/chem_prog/advisories/surve...
"The Comprehensive Methamphetamine Control Act of 1996 makes it illegal for any person to distribute a "laboratory supply," which is defined in the
final rule as a "listed chemical or any chemical substance, or item on a special surveillance list published by the Attorney General, which contains
chemicals, products, materials or equipment used in the manufacture of controlled substances and listed chemicals"
Obviously specific to the United States, or persons shipping thereto. |
Does this apply to england to ?
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itchyfruit
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Sorry didn't notice that bit 
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entropy51
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If you use the search function at the top of the page with "kno3.com" you will find the threads that discuss the arrest of British citizens arrested
for shipping to the US.
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setback
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| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | DJF90, according to the literature the Leuckart goes with formamide and the ketone that Sedit and his buddies discuss over at psychonaut.com
Seems like way too many threads devolve to cookery, which is of little interest to us amateur chemists. |
Don't really know what your problem is, no one said anything about cookery. Also, who is "we"? You said "we".
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entropy51
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Us amateur chemists who are not interested in cookery. We who don't post on psychonauts.com about naughty ketones. We.
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Sedit
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For someone so against something you seem to know alot about the place. Naughty
is in the eye of the beholder.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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entropy51
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Well dude, when you immediately suggested a Leuckart for formamide I opened the trusty old Google and searched for [Sedit, Leuckart] and it popped
right up!
In a long life in chemistry I've yet to see Leuckart applied to anything except naughty ketones, although I'm sure it's good for other stuff. Just
sayin'.
I'm against things that have made it nearly impossible to legally be an amateur chemist. And don't think this forum ain't watched. There are plenty
of GS-13's out there who want to be GS-14's and they only get promoted when they bust somebody. They can do the same Google search that I did.
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itchyfruit
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| Quote: Originally posted by entropy51 | | If you use the search function at the top of the page with "kno3.com" you will find the threads that discuss the arrest of British citizens arrested
for shipping to the US. |
interesting(not because i was going to send formamide to the US because i wouldn't) but because by strange coincidence i've spent most of the day
making enquires about having some chemicals shipped from the US to here, it's an S1 poison and apparently it's ok to ship up to 450g.
I realise this is a bit of topic i just thought it was an interesting point.
However if anyone knows otherwise please let me know 
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Sedit
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"In a long life in chemistry I've yet to see Leuckart applied to anything except naughty ketones, although I'm sure it's good for other stuff. Just
sayin'."
Its possibly you have never seen other uses for it because your putting "Sedit" before "Leuckart" in the search engine. You may have much better
success just typing in "Leuckart reaction" and "uses".
It has its uses in the synthesis of Isopropyl amine from acetone which I have heard tell of on this forum and many other amines that one may find a
need for. It is a useful aminating reagent because most methods for aminating carbonyl compounds involves the use of very toxic mercury or harder to
get and work with reagents.
Not to turn this into one of those threeds that won't die but just food for thought... who made the chemicals illegal the few that used them for no
good or the folks that think along the lines of yourself in that things like Red P, iodine, and formamide ect... must have no other use then to make
drugs because drugmakers use them?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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entropy51
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I think I'd use reductive amination to prepare isopropylamine from acetone.
My statement that "I've yet to see Leuckart applied to anything except naughty ketones" was based on industry experience in organic synthesis, not
Googling.
The named chemicals are illegal because they have been repeatedly found in takedowns of clandestine labs, not because "folks that think along the
lines" of myself have dirty minds. I'm sorry that they're denied to everyone because of the selfish and callous acts of the cooks, but that's the
cooks' fault, not mine.
All in all just not a good subject of discussion for a forum devoted to amateur science. And this is not really a good place to advertise your
website that is at odds with the legal pursuit of amateur science.
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Sedit
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My website is a library of chemistry text that I have gathered thru out the years and compiled into a website soon to be searchable...
Show me, please, how it is related to drug cooking and I will with ease show you how you are highly mistaken. You seem to highly have the wrong idea
of who I am and assumptions are just that someone assuming something without total knowlage of the situation.
The reactions existed long before some of the substances they produce where no longer legel. Did you even look at my site before making your
assumptions?
You are correct it is not a good discussion for an amateur forum so why people such as yourself insist on bringing it up every chance that they get
unprovoked is beyond me. This discussion has been had here time and time again every time someone mentions a reaction that is popular in the
underground. Maybe its because folks want to use it as a launching platform for them to spout there beliefs or cover up there true intent, I just dont
know.
Point being im done with this conversation because theres no use in rationalizing with those that already have been brainwashed to believe one way or
another but the fact still stands as per my original reason for bringing up this topic or the Leuckart before my mention of it was so rudely swept
under the rug due to your paranoia, the Leuckart is a fine reaction to aminate ketones for someone that wants to avoid the use of toxic compounds.
Good day to you sir and perhaps open your mind a little bit here and there.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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entropy51
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No hard feelings, Sedit. I was just a little concerned when you said "Im sure there are people around who would gladly give you compansation to take
that bottle off your hands."
Since you were talking about formamide, listed on the DEA's Special Surveillance List, it sounded as if you were maybe crossing a legal line that
could bring unwanted LE attention to the forum.
I thought it best to bring it to your attention why this might be a bad idea.
I'll drop it too.
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Sedit
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No nothing like that I was just suggesting along the lines of what zed already stated about selling it and finding something more useful to ones self.
I have formic acid and to synthesis formamide or ammonia formate for the Leuckart would be a walk in the park.
As you stated no hard feelings.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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setback
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Please don't assume you speak for everyone entropy, not exactly an endearing trait there. There was nothing to suggest cookery whatsoever. If this guy
was using drug terms like freebase, "swim", etc. that would be one thing. Let's not be so presumptive.
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DJF90
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Additionally the Leuckart reaction is a reductive amination reaction. The iminium intermediate is formed from nucleophilic addition-elimination at the
carbonyl, which is then reduced to the amine by the formate ion. If I were to make isopropylamine, the Leuckart reaction would be my method of choice,
purely because its so simple! Just add acetone and excess ammonium formate to a flask and reflux. A cosolvent maybe required (I'm thinking IPA). I
actually intend on doing this at some point to make diisopropylamine, and then metallating to form the useful base LDA.
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entropy51
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Let us know how it goes, DJF90. Some people have had trouble duplicating the yields found in the literature, and others have found a tendency to go
to tar and complex mixtures of products. One group I worked in had found borohydride reductions of nitriles to be much more reliable than the
Leuckart. I hope the isopropyl goes better for you!
[Edited on 24-6-2009 by entropy51]
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DJF90
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It should go fine. The key to the leuckart is to use excess ammonium formate, just like you would use excess ammonia with alkyl halides to obtain the
primary amines. For the diisopropylamine, I think I will use a leuckart reaction to make the isopropylamine, and then I'm not really sure what to do
from there. I'll figure it out when I finally get round to thinking about it. Have alot more to experiment with first, but nothing can be done until
I've sorted my finances out (got glassware, mantles, rotovap and balance, just need to sort out a cooling system for condensors (figured it out but
money is the issue) and clampstands) so I can get my lab set up and operational. Chemicals need to be purchased also 
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Sedit
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Be sure to figure a camera in also.
Perhaps start a nice picture tutorial as I will follow along with you also since I have intrest in making Isopropylamine also for some experiments of
mine.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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entropy51
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One route to diisopropylamine is to react isopropylamine with isopropyl bromide:
Attachment: alkyl amine preps.pdf (1.2MB)
This file has been downloaded 952 times
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Paddywhacker
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ot... isopropylamine
There is a commercial weedkiller preparation sold in NZ .. "G360 Commercial weedkiller - Westminster Garden Products - that is 360 g/litre Glyphosate
as the isopropylamine salt. It shouldn't be too difficult to separate it out if needed.
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by Paddywhacker | There is a commercial weedkiller preparation sold in NZ .. "G360 Commercial weedkiller - Westminster Garden Products - that is 360 g/litre Glyphosate
as the isopropylamine salt. It shouldn't be too difficult to separate it out if needed.
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That's what they said about hydrolyzing DEET to get diethylamine. There's a long convoluted thread on it, but I'm not sure that anyone really
suceeded.
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