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497
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@ MJP Yes someone already said propylene was available at welding stores. I have taken that into consideration, if I do end up needing a propylene
source. Currently I'm planning on doing from propylene glycol to propylene chlorohydrin, no propylene involved. If that doesn't work out then I may
have to try to find some propylene at the hardware store.
Unless the online source is very cheap, I don't think its much use to me. I will need multiple kilograms of the stuff...
@ Shockwave Thanks for that information, I will probably use that method. Apparently NaHSO4 will melt at ~58*C when monohydrate, while anhydrous
melts above 300*C with decompositon. When did yours melt?
[Edited on 18-8-2008 by 497]
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 497
Unless the online source is very cheap, I don't think its much use to me. I will need multiple kilograms of the stuff...
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Propylene oxide is quite volatile and surprisingly toxic.
Making this stuff safely on a kilogram scale is going to require some serious kit.
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497
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Yes I know its nasty stuff... 200 ppm for 8 hours begins to be toxic IIRC. I'm also considering 1,2 Butylene oxide for that very reason. 500 ppm for 8
hours is safe and it is much less volatile. Unfortunately butylene and butylene glycol are not very easy to get in quantity as far as I know. In case
you didn't figure it out already, my main interest in these compounds is for FAEs. Gram for gram they are pretty well equivalent to TNT in explosive
power.
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Formatik
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by 497 @ Shockwave Thanks for that information, I will probably use that method. Apparently NaHSO4 will melt at ~58*C
when monohydrate, while anhydrous melts above 300*C with decompositon. When did yours melt? |
I used a low flame from a lit match to melt both the bisulfate and mixture, but didn't take a temperature measurement.
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 497
Yes I know its nasty stuff... 200 ppm for 8 hours begins to be toxic IIRC. I'm also considering 1,2 Butylene oxide for that very reason. 500 ppm for 8
hours is safe and it is much less volatile. Unfortunately butylene and butylene glycol are not very easy to get in quantity as far as I know. In case
you didn't figure it out already, my main interest in these compounds is for FAEs. Gram for gram they are pretty well equivalent to TNT in explosive
power. |
You are proposing making propylene oxide, which is quite toxic, on a kilogram scale and then using it to build a fuel air weapon?
That is highly likely to result in the death of yourself, friends or neighbours or a run in with the local anti terrorist squad.
I have all my nails and other male squirrel 'bits'! I intend hanging on to them, you may not be so lucky
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meme
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Why you want to do that?
I had some practical OTC advice about propylene oxide itself, but after the last few comments as a weapon, I can't help unless I am convinced you have
some legal reason to want it.
Energetics are cool, weapons are for weenies.
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497
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@ Squirrel
What are you talking about? Toxic compared to what? All the MSDS reccomends is safety glasses, gloves, and good ventiliation. I'm not some kewl doing
this in my basement. According to MSDS:
ORL-RAT LD50 380 mg kg-1
IHL-MUS LC50 1740 ppm/4h.
IPR-RAT LD50 150 mg kg-1
IHL-DOG LCLO 2005 ppm/4h
ORL-GPG LD50 6600 mg kg-1
IPR-RAT LD50 364 mg kg-1
SKN-RBT LD50 1500 mg kg-1
Propylene oxide in itself is not remotely explosive, only mixed the the perfect proportion of air and hit with a powerful initiation blast at the
exact right time (about 60 milliseconds after dispersal) will it detonate. In my view this makes it much safer that any explosive (not considering
toxicity of course). And why the hell do you think I would try anything like that near any inhabited area??? Come on now, I'm not that stupid. A
friend of mine initiated several hundred pounds of AN not too far away from town and had no problems nor runins with the law, I'm not too worried
about a couple pounds of propylene oxide detonated miles from anyone. Seriously, give me a little credit here, I'm not some kid thats bored and wants
to make a loud bang.
@ meme
Weapon? Why is it any different than any other energetic material? I have no intention of using it to hurt or damage anything. or any one. I am mostly
interested in it because it is novel and as far as I know never been attempted by an amateur. If for no other reason, give your wisdom so that others
who are not using its energetic properties may benefit. As I understand it, it is a handy chemical precourser for quite a few things.
[Edited on 18-8-2008 by 497]
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meme
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k
It is a commen funigant. While I don't think that most companies would sell it to you just as an individual, a license for fumigation is like $35
here IIRC. Also, social engineering is an artform we all should possess.
Also, it is still used as a racing fuel, and racers would have it even if the NHRA banned it.
And, apparently, it is used to pateurize raw almonds (?!) which I just learned while verifying my aging mind ;P
I just want to point out what a beautiful addition to substitutued phenyl-and indole-isopropylamine chemistry it can be. 
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ScienceSquirrel
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I really think that detonating a few hundred pounds of anything does fall outside of the remit of mad science.
Just reading the MSDS of a compound is a bad way to guage the hazards of a compound in my opinion.
Maybe we are moving into an era of tick box science.
Read the MSDS, that's the safety angle dealt with then.
Propylene oxide has not got a strong odour and it has a very low bp ( 34 C ) so you have to allow for that in assessing its risks.
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497
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I wasn't involved in that, and I agree it is not really mad science. One of them (there were actually two blasts around that size) was used to
demolish an old cabin that the owner wanted to get rid of. They weren't just for fun, they were experiments. Just a bit oversize...
You are right about the safety part, that is a big problem. But there are a few things that make me think it is not *too* hazardous. One, it is sold
in 5 gallon containers to anyone. Two, it can be shipped UPS. Three, as far as I have seen MSDSs tend to overstate risks (they assume chronic
exposure). Of course all this does not mean it is safe, I will still treat it with plenty of respect. Fortunately I have a bit of trick up my sleeve
to deal with its very high volitality. Here in Alaska, it gets quite cold, -40*C is not uncommon for a few days, so I may simply wait until it gets
cold out to do any handling of propylene oxide (or ethylene possibly). At -20 outside with a fan blowing away from me, I think things would be pretty
safe. Anyone not in a cold climate could use dry ice to cool it effectively.
This shows how I will attempt it:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=k14qAAAAEBAJ&printsec=a...
Calculated distance to 1 psi overpressure: 30 meters.
[Edited on 19-8-2008 by 497]
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by meme
I just want to point out what a beautiful addition to substitutued phenyl-and indole-isopropylamine chemistry it can be. |
It does seem to be a versatile three carbon synthon that can yield 1-arylpropan-2-ols via electrophilic Friedel Crafts type reactions or addition of
metallated nucleophiles. 
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by 497
I wasn't involved in that, and I agree it is not really mad science. One of them (there were actually two blasts around that size) was used to
demolish an old cabin that the owner wanted to get rid of. They weren't just for fun, they were experiments. Just a bit oversize...
You are right about the safety part, that is a big problem. But there are a few things that make me think it is not *too* hazardous. One, it is sold
in 5 gallon containers to anyone. Two, it can be shipped UPS. Three, as far as I have seen MSDSs tend to overstate risks (they assume chronic
exposure). Of course all this does not mean it is safe, I will still treat it with plenty of respect. Fortunately I have a bit of trick up my sleeve
to deal with its very high volitality. Here in Alaska, it gets quite cold, -40*C is not uncommon for a few days, so I may simply wait until it gets
cold out to do any handling of propylene oxide (or ethylene possibly). At -20 outside with a fan blowing away from me, I think things would be pretty
safe. Anyone not in a cold climate could use dry ice to cool it effectively.
This shows how I will attempt it:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=k14qAAAAEBAJ&printsec=a...
Calculated distance to 1 psi overpressure: 30 meters.
[Edited on 19-8-2008 by 497] |
That is an idiot's firework.
If it did not detonate, what would you do?
Try and set it off from a distance or leave it to fester in the field?
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497
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Until I knew it would work, I would not attempt a charge quite that big. If it failed to detonate it would most likely make a fireball, disposing of
it well enough. I would add a bit of Al to the initiator charge to make sure it ignited if nothing else. If it didn't ignite at all I would have a
secondary initiator that fired off a charge of black powder or CuO/Al thermite to ignite it.
You are being awfully negative. Fester in a field?? You make it sound like fucking mustard gas! It would evaporate and blow away very quickly if not
ignited. It would most likely be done in an old gravel pit miles from any houses.
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meme
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel
| Quote: | Originally posted by meme
I just want to point out what a beautiful addition to substitutued phenyl-and indole-isopropylamine chemistry it can be. |
It does seem to be a versatile three carbon synthon that can yield 1-arylpropan-2-ols via electrophilic Friedel Crafts type reactions or addition of
metallated nucleophiles. |
I really want to de-rail this thread . . .But thou must not push off-topic. *looks around for moderators*
Blowing up such a versatile tool is sad . I'm going to be good though and try to
think about explosions 
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497
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Its fine if you want to derail it. The thread was intended for anything involving propylene and/or propylene oxide. I think the mods probably would
not mind the discussion of other aspects of propylene oxide chemistry in it. This is the organic chemistry forum after all. If it was only meant for
FAEs I would have put it in the energetics section. FAEs just happen to be my personal interest in it, but this is not my personal forum 
And don't be too sad about blowing it up, it is available online in 5 gallon jugs if you look hard enough. Think about all that H2SO4, HNO3, etc. that
gets "blown up" when detonating conventional explosives.
[Edited on 20-8-2008 by 497]
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ScienceSquirrel
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I must admit having gone off explosives, homemade or otherwise, with advancing age.
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