quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
aluminum issue
Due to business concerns I came accross a powdered aluminum (all powdered metals for that matter) distributer & manufacturer some time back. [A
major one whose products have been used in pyrotechnic applications.]
I approached the batf when at the federal building in town reciently and asked what the restrictions were in purchase. I explained that the use would
be for hobby rocketry applications, etc. I was quite direct and was told no such laws exist! What gives? I have seen the one pound limit for years
now. The gal was very helpful and not at all paranoid or invasive. This was in person and she didn't ask me for my ID or photgraph me or have me take
a fingerprint card....She assured me that powdered metals are not on any list or restriction. But I have seen that for years....I explained that
powdered zirconium and Mg, Al were quite flamable solids, etc, etc...she told me she knew that and metal products were just that - products, and that
there were no federal laws restricting their purchase.
I explained the CPSC's issues with hobbiest stuff and she told me that due to their charter the CPSC doesn't deal with firearms in any manner
what-so-ever and their intrution in the area of commercial application of hobbiest pyrotechnics was resented from the "inside" and they are on the
atf's "turf" - strange stuff....
Does anyone know the specifics of this restriction? Is it a volentary one on the part of retailers?
[Edited on 13-1-2007 by quicksilver]
|
|
|
Sickman
Hazard to Self
Posts: 98
Registered: 9-5-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Icy and I see!
|
|
Quicksilver,
I think that purchasing aluminum is no problem! I wouldn't buy from a pyro supply, simply because their prices are awful, and like you said they only
want to sell you like a pound a year! What fun is that?
No! No! It's best to import it from the two big (big being land mass big and population big) developing countries in asia, and I don't mean russia.
When you buy from western culture countries, you end up with enough laws to confuse a lawyer, and enough regulations to drive up the cost
considerably. Even worse, they may require that you have a high explosives manufacturing licence; IT'S JUST ALUMINUM! What the hell?
It is legal, conveniant, and very cheap to import the desired form of aluminum, in any quantity, importation tax is probably cheaper than state taxes
for local purchases. 25 kilograms is usually a minimum order quantity, which is a "lifetime supply" by american pyro supplier's standards.
The main thing to keep in mind is that when you purchase aluminum as a pyrotechnic chemical, it's expensive and there are some paranoid people
involved in that process, however if you purchase it as powdered aluminum for paint or art work then there are ALOT less questions and a much lower
price.
Another possible is to make it yourself which is legal, no quantity is too large, no mesh is too small, and the only one asking questions is you.
Whether you want to make thermite grade today or German dark!
The important part in making your own is starting from a very pure aluminum or if you will an aluminum magnesium alloy which is superior to magnesium
because of less reactivity with air and water and better than aluminum alone for some of it's pyro properties.
I think simply the major concern for purchases of larger than a pound quantities of powdered metals is you end up with shipping regulations which is
the real costly thing. When you ship certain quantities "they" may want to ship it in oil or water for safety, which is more weight, which is more
cost and more trouble for you to prepare the aluminum for any use! They may want to ship it in heavy metal containers, and charge a large hasmat fee,
not to mention the embarassment of when your nieghbors see a yellow truck pull up to your house with "hazardous material" and "stay back 200 ft. she
might explode" warning signs all over the truck. Not to mention the hassel of having to interact with the people in the truck if you have to sign for
the damn thing.
Anyway have a good day!
Sickman
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
I liked the "stay back 200 ft. she might explode"....
I have no neighbors so it's a slam dunk. but from the supplier side they wanted a 50kg purchase! Gawd...what the Hell would I do with THAT????! But, frankly I think your right; no one has yet to point to any law and say "that's
it in black and white". ATF said it's no big deal. Could this all be a scam????
|
|
|
MadHatter
International Hazard
Posts: 1347
Registered: 9-7-2004
Location: Maine
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enjoying retirement
|
|
Restrictions
Al powder suppliers sometimes restrict the purchase to 2 LBS a year. It was probably to
cover their asses if they suspected that a buyer was into making illegal M-80s. Now it seems
that the CPSC is having their way and forcing these limitations.
As for resentment by the BATFE, nobody likes having their turf stepped on. After all, they're
the ones who issue fireworks/explosives licenses - not the CPSC !
From opening of NCIS New Orleans - It goes a BOOM ! BOOM ! BOOM ! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
It's actually some heavy stuff from a "goverment-turf" standpoint. CPSC's own Charter forbids them from dealing with any and all issues concerning
firearms. So all the fuss made about suing gun manufacturers over their making a dangerous product fell flat. The real reason it fell was that it
can't be laid at the feet of the CPSC and have them deem it a "dangerous product" as most all law suites of that matter in the past have done to
establish their case. And if we follow the logic here; it makes perfect sense. HOWEVER; the intrusion into pyrotechnics by the CPSC via 1968 Child
Protective Act allows them to mess with firecrackers, etc. and this gets the middle mangment (& higher) folks at ATF pissed off.... as it should.
The issue at hand is not rockets (or Roman candles, fountains, whatever) but explosive fireworks that make a report, a bang. This was the thing that
established the 5mg flash powder for ground fireworks and 130mg of flash for airborne fireworks ruling (& now it's law). ATF is told to sit on the
sidelines and manage the liciences and do all the paper shuffleing but not the rulings, not the nuts and bolts of any legal argument....that's given
to the CPSC.
So my point is that they were more than happy to tell me where there may be CPSC bullshit and it may be in the whole aluminum powder issue.
|
|
|
pots-o-potash
Harmless
Posts: 8
Registered: 24-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
quicksilver, it's 50mg of powder fo ground crackers not 5mg (that would be one small cracker, or a hell of a bulked-up casing )
I have to agree though, it realy does suck the way the CPSC has been handling pyrotechnics (and the chemicals relating to them).
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
-- Yea; a wee typo there (5mg is a touch small)...
Most of law enforcement tends to look at what is prosecutable within the "letter of the law" enforcement issues. How many people are out there as
"chemistry hobbyists" ? Not too many. What percentage break the law? If by that we mean the absolute letter of the law; federal and state, then we may
have a 1/3 percentage (I'm guessing). But cops aren't willing to do all sorts of paperwork for a case that the DA (or whoever) will say "make this go
away") - From what I have been told the big issue that affects this hobby is the Meth Cooks. They make all sorts of lame bombs as well when in the
middle of their prime objective. Most experienced cops know this. But the average cop will see a bunch of lab-ware and chemicals and just assume the
worst. This may be where all the problems arise. If there were a way to set up one's lab or whatever so that it LOOKS like a hobby lab I believe a lot
of trouble can be avoided.
|
|
|
obsessed_chemist
Hazard to Self
Posts: 65
Registered: 23-3-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: electronegative
|
|
I get my aluminum powder in the form of radiator leak repair. I'm not sure of the purity, but nothing other than "aluminum powder" is mentioned in the
msds. It's somewhat costly for a small amount, but I don't do much pyro so there's no need for much. Also, I'm not sure what size the grain is.
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
Al obtained via radiator leak repair tubes are expensive. One source, when I was collecting, was to find a machine shop and offer to "clean up up
their shop" and collect the sweepings. I simply told them I wanted to keep the metals and they thought I was a bit odd (understandably) as they didn't
value anything like that.
---> Then ball mill the materials you collect. In one afternoon some many years back I got about 60 pounds of assorted Al, Mg, Fe, Cu, and Ti. Then
it was a simple matter to clean up the granular material, size it and ball mill the softer metals for flake that which was fine mesh to begin with. I
still had much more to find. If you put you mind to it you can find or make most almost anything in common rocket or pyro hobby chemicals.
A far, far better source was mil surplus metal powders. To find a REAL mil-surplus agent was a challenge but once I found them I bought Ni, W, Mn,
& Mo by the pound and at 325 mesh or better. They also had Co, P, and B available at 2-5 micron sizes! I did buy some but those were simply so
damn hard to find elsewhere I haven't even used them (maybe some boron for a burn rate enhancer once or twice). Mil surplus Aluminum powder IS
available but it's sold by the drum! IIRC it's about $350 for a drum of 450lbs @ 425 mesh or finer (about 17um in 80% of the total) and the purity is
certainly 98% or better. On occation some people will have an open drum and sell pounds at about 5$ if you buy several at a time.
[Edited on 23-3-2007 by quicksilver]
|
|
|
tito-o-mac
Hazard to Others
Posts: 117
Registered: 30-6-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Just crack open etch-pads and they have aluminium powder inside.
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
An "Etch-a-Sketch" is an antique. Popular in the 1960's.....I don't think they or similar are available today. Or even have been available for the
last 30 years. Do you have a source?
[Edited on 12-7-2007 by quicksilver]
|
|
|
Fleaker
International Hazard
Posts: 1252
Registered: 19-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: nucleophilic
|
|
Yeah they still sell them. Used to mess with them all the time.
http://www.etch-a-sketch.com/where_to_buy.jsp
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
|
|
|
EllisDTripp
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 30-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Another good low-profile source for Al powder would be marine supply stores that carry "West System" epoxy resin products. They have a product called
"420 Aluminum Powder", which is just that , a very finely powdered aluminum, used as a filler in some epoxy applications:
http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/productinfo/guide/index.h...
Picked up a 6oz can for about $8 at West Marine a while back...
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
