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obsessed_chemist
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Paranoia while buying reagents?
Do any of you fellow scientists ever feel like a young kid buying condoms at the pharmacy, when you're out picking up reagents? I'm not talking about
going into a chem supply house, but just buying, say, muriatic acid, or lye, acetone, etc, from hardware stores and the like.
Although I have absolutely zero desire to pursue illegal activities, I do intend to use OTC products in a manner inconsistent with their labels (ie,
as technical grade reagents). Plus I realize that there are a lot of idiots out there trying to make drugs and bombs. Not to mention the heightened
state of paranoia that we currently face. So naturally I feel a bit sketchy sometimes in regards to buying such things.
For this reason, I normally have a cover story, ie white lie, in case anyone inquires about my purchases. I always know exactly what, how, and why a
chemical is used before I buy it. This isn't to say that I don't use the chems for their intended purpose at all. For instance, sulfuric acid is
really a god-sent when it comes to removing paper/hair clogs in drains.
I personally try to avoid buying multiple things at once that could be ill-conceived as bomb- or drug- making materials, and I try to pick up a few
innocent items as well while I'm there. It also helps when I go in there with a list, so as soon as an employee asks me if I need assistance, I can
look professional. I suppose dressing the part is important too. For instance, buying agricultural materials while you're wearing your favorite Slayer
shirt may not be the best idea.
Anyone here have any related stories about reagent aquisition? I even read one post here where this guy was followed out to his car, his license plate
number recorded, after buying one container of lye.
[Edited on 3/23/2007 by obsessed_chemist]
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YT2095
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Location: Just left of Europe and down a bit.
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as a young teenager yeah, I can realte to that, I think the local chemist had Record sales of Saltpeter for about a year when I was 14-15 (some 25
years ago).
now it doesn`t concern me, as I do nothing ilegal as far as I`m aware.
I must admit though, in todays age, when I bought RP and I2 in the same order perfectly innocently, and THEN found out what they`re used for, I did
get a little concerned as to how it may Look on paper.
however, with Nothing to hide here in my Lab, if the Law wanted to look at anytime at the things in here, they would be welcome to without issue or
hinderance on my part, as long as it was at a reasonable hour 
\"In a world full of wonders mankind has managed to invent boredom\" - Death
Twinkies don\'t have a shelf life. They have a half-life! -Caine (a friend of mine)
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obsessed_chemist
Hazard to Self
Posts: 65
Registered: 23-3-2007
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I want to make my home "lab" look as professional and innocent as possible. I'm considering putting up a poster of the periodic table, and replacing
all of my household chemical labels with my own labels made with my computer and printer, including essential msds info and markings, as well as my
own research company heading. Hopefully this will detract from the whole "meth" lab look (I really despise those folks). One thing that helps is that
I am also doing research with agriculture which makes my lab look a lot more legitimate.
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Dr.3vil
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Location: Secret Underground Bunker
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eh, it sucks that meth has ruined such a nice hobby. I guess it all depends on where you live. If local LE feels the need to keep tabs on chemicals
then you may be asked what you intend to do with all that potassium permanganate and sulfuric acid. otherwise your just another consumer.
I have no problem going to a home despot or whatever and getting what I need, although I tend to shop where self-checkout is available. its always a
good idea to know what the legitimate uses are for certain items and be somewhat well dressed.
I don't know if an elaborate cat and mouse game is required where you live when buying basic reagents. (although it may be fun)
--- rant warning ---
ok, if you want to make drugs or bombs, you have every right to be paranoid. after all, they WILL catch you eventually. Meth is single handedly
destroying any legitimate claim chemistry has as a hobby. Thanks to crank heads, (pyros are ok, at least some good comes outta fireworks) if your into
chemistry, be prepared at some point you may get a visit from LE.
--- end rant ---
Dr. 3vil
--- Dig hard, dig deep, deserve what you reap, don't you know the truth will set you free ----
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joeflsts
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| Quote: | Originally posted by obsessed_chemist
I want to make my home "lab" look as professional and innocent as possible. I'm considering putting up a poster of the periodic table, and replacing
all of my household chemical labels with my own labels made with my computer and printer, including essential msds info and markings, as well as my
own research company heading. Hopefully this will detract from the whole "meth" lab look (I really despise those folks). One thing that helps is that
I am also doing research with agriculture which makes my lab look a lot more legitimate. |
LOL - I feel better. I have done much of the same thing. In fact I wrote a program that keeps records of every chemical that I own with
corresponding MSDS. For chemicals that aren't in what I consider to be "lab" friendly packaging (i.e. consumer packaging) I repackage and relabel
with labling that represents what I feel important on each item.
My lab looks like a lab and not a train wreck in my garage.
I'm tired of the assholes that ruin this hobby by making illegal drugs. In fact many come to this forum to "perfect" their trade. I recognize that
people don't like the restrictions placed on us, but it was done by officials, a majority of our citizens elected (at least in the US). Like it or
not the law is the law.
Joe
[Edited on 23-3-2007 by joeflsts]
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Pyridinium
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| Quote: | Originally posted by YT2095
however, with Nothing to hide here in my Lab, if the Law wanted to look at anytime at the things in here, they would be welcome to without issue or
hinderance on my part, as long as it was at a reasonable hour
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YT: Essentially I feel the same way, but what concerns me is that, in cases of overzealousness, actual innocence can be ignored. Example: acetone
and H2O2, common in every lab imaginable. "Intent by possession" is a logical fallacy but a practical possibility for anyone unfortunate enough to
get a visit. The news media are not known for their dispassionately cool-headed approach to chemistry-related stories.
People who do nothing wrong should have nothing to fear, but I'm not sure it works that way in practice.
obsessed_chemist: It's true there's a rather paranoid climate out there. I think things are better, generally, if the stores you deal with know you
as a regular customer and don't think you're a shady character. It's sort of human nature- everyone is naturally more suspicous of strangers. So
you're not a meth cook or a k3wl, but the store clerks don't know you well enough to know that.
A few years ago I was building a Tesla coil. I was obtaining some flexible plastic sheet to experiment with as HV capacitor insulation. I made the
mistake of telling the guy at the home improvement center what it was for.
His attitude changed markedly. Gears were turning in his mind, as if he was trying to come up with a way to stop me. "Be careful," he finally
admonished. He didn't even know what a Tesla coil was, but he now looked askance at me.
If it had involved chemicals, I could easily have pictured this guy calling the authorities.
EDIT: Agreed, it is a good idea to have your lab as neat and professional as possible. Keep a detailed lab notebook of your experiments, a good
habit anyway. If you can, make a backup copy of the notebook to keep in a safe place. Meth cooks don't have time to bother with scientific
method... they're too busy ruining the public's image of amateur chemists. Which is ironic, because meth cooks aren't chemists anyway.
[Edited on 23-3-2007 by Pyridinium]
[Edited on 23-3-2007 by Pyridinium]
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obsessed_chemist
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Registered: 23-3-2007
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Mood: electronegative
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Heh, funny how you said you prefer self check-out to avoid hassle, since those damn scanners often give me a problem, and the supervising clerk has to
assist me anyways.
Incidentally, once I bought some lye at Lowe's at the self check-out, and the computer asked for my phone number, for some kind of receipt purposes or
something (but I think I know what it was really for). Of course I gave a false number because I think that's unwarranted, and they never do that to
you at the regular checkout.
Personally, I think the control of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine by putting it behind the counter and logging who buys it is one of the best things
that could have happened for hobby chemists in quite a while. I never use that stuff for colds anyways (makes me feel delerious). Hopefully the whole
"meth" epidemic will eventually go away, but apparently the shit will just get imported from Mexico, which also sucks, but at least it will deter
scumbags from making the shit in their kitchens.
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Levi
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Registered: 24-1-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by obsessed_chemist
I want to make my home "lab" look as professional and innocent as possible. I'm considering putting up a poster of the periodic table, and replacing
all of my household chemical labels with my own labels made with my computer and printer, including essential msds info and markings, as well as my
own research company heading. |
One of the new members here (subversiveautistic) said he did time for having a bottle of acetone in the same room as a bottle of dilute peroxide
because he also had an old firework nearby. Making your lab look professional will only do so much and probably won't help at all if you happen to
be Arabic.
Chemcrime does not entail death: chemcrime IS death.
Chemcrime does not entail death. Chemcrime is death.
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obsessed_chemist
Hazard to Self
Posts: 65
Registered: 23-3-2007
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Mood: electronegative
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Levi
One of the new members here (subversiveautistic) said he did time for having a bottle of acetone in the same room as a bottle of dilute peroxide
because he also had an old firework nearby. Making your lab look professional will only do so much and probably won't help at all if you happen to
be Arabic.
Chemcrime does not entail death: chemcrime IS death. |
I did a search, and read his post. Seems this guy had ordered I, P, and organic solvents from vendors like KNO3.com which was recently busted as a
meth-lab supplier. So it's really no wonder why he received harrassment, even if he had no ill-intentions.
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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Welcome to the exciting indoor sport of buying consumer products which you intend to put to a higher purpose. 
You already understand the rules of this game quite well and should have no problems. As already indicated never let your enthusiasm for your project
spill over into telling the ignorant clerk what you are really up to. He will always assume the worst, being already primed by the media to do that.
You will learn to aquire many "hobbies." I will predict that pottery, photography, swimming, and brewing will be among your favorites. 
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Sandmeyer
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Posts: 784
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Location: Internet
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Seems like they don't really want to get rid of the methamphetamine. How hard can it be to ban ephedrine containing products? With the CIA-record of
distributing cocaine it doesn't surprise me that the situation is the way it is...
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roamingnome
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no, it makes good training for police
and great news fodder
also in these cash straped times, a recent 400,000 dollar bust nets great money for the police department... its like an incentive....
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obsessed_chemist
Hazard to Self
Posts: 65
Registered: 23-3-2007
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Mood: electronegative
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Magpie
Welcome to the exciting indoor sport of buying consumer products which you intend to put to a higher purpose.
You already understand the rules of this game quite well and should have no problems. As already indicated never let your enthusiasm for your project
spill over into telling the ignorant clerk what you are really up to. He will always assume the worst, being already primed by the media to do that.
You will learn to aquire many "hobbies." I will predict that pottery, photography, swimming, and brewing will be among your favorites. |
Don't forget about gardening, welding, cleaning, painting/refinishing, or home-improvement
[Edited on 3/23/2007 by obsessed_chemist]
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evil_lurker
National Hazard
Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
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Mood: On the wagon again.
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I've pretty much given up on OTC stuff... way to plain and boring cept for things such as muriatic acid, drain opener, lye, toluene, and a few other
odds and ends.
What gives me the creeps though is ordering from chem supply houses and other specialty vendors.... I have it in my mind that they have a red phone on
each CSR's desk that dials 1-800-HELP-DEA every time it gets picked up when somone orders anything even remotely suspicious.
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joeflsts
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Posts: 226
Registered: 14-1-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by obsessed_chemist
| Quote: | Originally posted by Levi
One of the new members here (subversiveautistic) said he did time for having a bottle of acetone in the same room as a bottle of dilute peroxide
because he also had an old firework nearby. Making your lab look professional will only do so much and probably won't help at all if you happen to
be Arabic.
Chemcrime does not entail death: chemcrime IS death. |
I did a search, and read his post. Seems this guy had ordered I, P, and organic solvents from vendors like KNO3.com which was recently busted as a
meth-lab supplier. So it's really no wonder why he received harrassment, even if he had no ill-intentions. |
I believe that this guy didn't spend ONE single day behind bars for hobby chemical possession. I suspect his confinement was related to something
else entirely.
I don't know him but I suspect it wasn't his first time on this board - well maybe it was with his new user name.
Joe
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Sandmeyer
National Hazard
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Registered: 9-1-2005
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| Quote: | Originally posted by obsessed_chemist
Hopefully the whole "meth" epidemic will eventually go away, but apparently the shit will just get imported from Mexico, which also sucks, but at
least it will deter scumbags from making the shit in their kitchens. |
How is this epidemic supposed to "go away" when school-children are increasingly force-fed such potent stimulants (distributed by pharmaceutical
companies) and when ephedrine, the key precursor, is widely available?
On speed everything seems so perfect, all problems evaporate to make room to the ruthless systematism, initially. With continuus exposure, soon user
becomes paranoid, fixated on the drug, delirious, depressed, not to mention the disaster it impose on the cardiovascular system. Since the judgement
is severely compromised it is hard to get off the insidious fixation. How this can be a good idea to give to children is beyond my imagination.
[Edited on 23-3-2007 by Sandmeyer]
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Dr.3vil
Hazard to Self
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Registered: 27-7-2006
Location: Secret Underground Bunker
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Mood: 4He + 8.7 MeV
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| Quote: | Originally posted by evil_lurker
I've pretty much given up on OTC stuff... way to plain and boring cept for things such as muriatic acid, drain opener, lye, toluene, and a few other
odds and ends.
What gives me the creeps though is ordering from chem supply houses and other specialty vendors.... I have it in my mind that they have a red phone on
each CSR's desk that dials 1-800-HELP-DEA every time it gets picked up when somone orders anything even remotely suspicious. |
damn strait....sooner or later you have to deal with a supplier. god forbid your mailing address should have "Apt B" or something like that. its
pretty obvious when an individual places an order.
The question then becomes, what do we think is suspicious? (beyond the obvious)
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obsessed_chemist
Hazard to Self
Posts: 65
Registered: 23-3-2007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by evil_lurker
I've pretty much given up on OTC stuff... way to plain and boring cept for things such as muriatic acid, drain opener, lye, toluene, and a few other
odds and ends. |
I feel differently. A lot of the fun/challenge in kitchen chemistry for me comes from improvising some of my own reagents. And I'll even admit that I
used to get a little excitement from going out and aquiring my reagents from OTC sources as well, but that feeling has since faded.
In some ways the improvising of reagents, based on grandpa's chemistry, could be an artform in and of itself. Unfortunately, this might be
misinterpretted by some as a form of "diverting" products, but as long as experimentation is innocent and legitimate, and not overly-hazardous to
others or yourself, I don't foresee a problem.
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The_Davster
A pnictogen
Posts: 2861
Registered: 18-11-2003
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Mood: .
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As Magpie stated...you got it figured out...avoiding combinations, extraneous purchases, etc.
Half of the fun about this hobby is how advanced of things you can make from things off the shelf of the hardware store, sure a few things need to be
ordered but this is the essence of amateur chemistry.
I try not to worry much anymore, I used to but now I am studying chemistry at the university level, I have inspired others to start their own labs,
and most professors couldent care less knowing full well what we do. And this is in the meth capital of the area.
Unfortunatly, drugs arent going to go away until the gov quits using meth to get little fat kids to loose weight. Or they somehow get legalized and
the illegal element is removed. I kinda hope for the latter...Up with Darwinism
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evil_lurker
National Hazard
Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
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Mood: On the wagon again.
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr.3vil
| Quote: | Originally posted by evil_lurker
I've pretty much given up on OTC stuff... way to plain and boring cept for things such as muriatic acid, drain opener, lye, toluene, and a few other
odds and ends.
What gives me the creeps though is ordering from chem supply houses and other specialty vendors.... I have it in my mind that they have a red phone on
each CSR's desk that dials 1-800-HELP-DEA every time it gets picked up when somone orders anything even remotely suspicious. |
damn strait....sooner or later you have to deal with a supplier. god forbid your mailing address should have "Apt B" or something like that. its
pretty obvious when an individual places an order.
The question then becomes, what do we think is suspicious? (beyond the obvious) |
In the USA, the key is to find a supplier who will sell to individuals... once you find them you have to smooze them a lot and form a relationship.
Its a whole like getting into a virgin's panties... it takes some time and smoozing before you can get the goods.
Always start out by purchasing chems that are totally unrelated to anything that has to do with illicit drugs then work your way up in percieved
suspicion.
Once you have established a relationship and they "know" you then it becomes easier... heck then you can order normally suspicious stuff with little
or no questions asked... cept for the DEA List I chemicals.
And, if your ever checked by the DEA, well the DEA will do a background check and look at your prior purchases... which will hopefully reduce any
suspicions they might have.
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16MillionEyes
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I normally find myself inside hardware or pharmacy stores for hours just reading labels and labels. The problem is that I hadn't realized the whole
meth problem was so big (or that so many morons were attemtping chemistry for some quick cash) and I found myself the other day asking for caustic
soda withouth knowing its regular costumer use. which could've bring me a lot of trouble once I read a little more on caustic soda.
In general I'm just starting chemistry and for me the only place where I can get chemicals (if possible) is regular stores. How is one supposed to
practice and discover things if you're just limited to your book in your chemistry class?
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Pyridinium
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Registered: 18-5-2005
Location: USA
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Mood: cupric
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| Quote: | Originally posted by __________
How is one supposed to practice and discover things if you're just limited to your book in your chemistry class? |
Answer: you're not.
That's one reason America's industrial base is receding so fast, leaving little else but the service and construction industries.
People forget how much they owe their comforts to chemistry (and in turn, to the steady supply of chem students needed to replace the retirees of each
generation).
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joeflsts
Hazard to Others
Posts: 226
Registered: 14-1-2006
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Pyridinium
| Quote: | Originally posted by __________
How is one supposed to practice and discover things if you're just limited to your book in your chemistry class? |
Answer: you're not.
That's one reason America's industrial base is receding so fast, leaving little else but the service and construction industries.
People forget how much they owe their comforts to chemistry (and in turn, to the steady supply of chem students needed to replace the retirees of each
generation). |
This isn't just an American problem. There are many users on here from countries other than American that have laws that severly limit their ability
to be a hobbyist as well.
Joe
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Pyridinium
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Registered: 18-5-2005
Location: USA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by joeflsts
This isn't just an American problem. There are many users on here from countries other than American that have laws that severly limit their ability
to be a hobbyist as well.
Joe |
I know. Political correctness and 'wars' on inanimate objects have become all the rage these days.
The poster above is from the USA, so I was addressing his concern in particular.
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joeflsts
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Posts: 226
Registered: 14-1-2006
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| Quote: |
I know. Political correctness and 'wars' on inanimate objects have become all the rage these days.
The poster above is from the USA, so I was addressing his concern in particular. |
Personally I think the problem is more related to what I consider to be a group of organic organisms one step lower than a slug - Lawyers.
Joe
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