| Pages:
1
2 |
arevelacao
Harmless
Posts: 9
Registered: 4-9-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
hot champagne bottle + 26 psi
Hi, champagne bottles average tolerate from 4 to 6 atm at 20°C. In my experience with volatile solvents, I warmed up the bottom of a bottle in boil
water, the adapted manometer showed the pressure of 26 psi (1,85 atm). Then I turned off the heat, to avoid accidents.
My question is: how much pressure tolerate these heated champagne bottles?
I appreciate all comments, tx
|
|
|
Maja
Hazard to Others
Posts: 143
Registered: 27-2-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yea, I'm interested too in this. What do you think about champagne bottle at 70*C temperature and 2 atm pressure ? Can someone give suggestions on
vessels to work under pressure like 2-3atm ?
|
|
|
evil_lurker
National Hazard
Posts: 767
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: United States of Elbonia
Member Is Offline
Mood: On the wagon again.
|
|
In the mail today I got a Chemglass 350ml pressure vessel with #15 threaded teflon stopper that is supposedly good to 150psi.
Will have to try it out... will post results later.
|
|
|
asilentbob
Harmless
Posts: 24
Registered: 4-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: *sigh*
|
|
I'm interested in how champagne bottles handle pressure with a bit of heat as well. I have been throwing around an idea to use one for handling a
small bit of heat and around 60-80psi of hydrogen.
Normal un-used champagne bottles free from scratches and other defects are good to around 95psi max, IIRC... thats room temp or slightly chilled
though. IIRC most champagnes at time of opening are around 85psi...
So many ideas... too few dealing with chemistry.
|
|
|
Lambda
National Hazard
Posts: 566
Registered: 15-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Euforic Online
|
|
When designing complex and/or truncated Laboratory Glassware, they are usually Oven heat treated in order to equalize any stress that may have
occurred during the fabrication. Champagne bottles are designed to withstand a considerable amount of pressure, and would therefore have to be
tension-free. I am assuming that these bottles would be cooled down in such a manner, as to minimize tension effects. And therefore can hardly believe
that they would omit such a stage in the production of these bottles, to ensure a safer container for such a world renown and also protected label.
@asilentbob, therefore has a good point when only dealing with Champagne bottles that have been checked thoroughly for defects, as to being free from
scratches.
Needless to say, but covering these bottles with a strong and secure Metal mazed net in a way that no scratches are introduced onto the bottles
surface, is of vital importance for safety reasons.
Enclosing this bottle in a sturdy metal or wooden container with a gas-outlet vent, may furthermore be of benefit to prevent toxic or even explosive
gasses from escaping into the Lab environment in the event of a bottle-burst.
I have no idea about the design criteria of such bottles, if at all being of the same and standardized nature. A pressure chart of temperature versus
pressure would be very interesting indeed, but maybe hard to come across, if at all maybe even bottle brand/manufacturer specific.
Regards,
Lambda.
|
|
|
Lambda
National Hazard
Posts: 566
Registered: 15-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Euforic Online
|
|
Just as I had posted the above mentioned, I saw a video footage on "Discovery Channel" called "Men in White - Part 6", of an exploding cool drink
bottle. The explosion was so violent, that even the plastic container (looked like a PE-container) in which this sealed bottle was laying, and
submerged in warm water, containing granulates of solid CO2, had completely chattered and thus was destroyed.
A container in which a Champagne bottle explodes, would therefore have to be able to handle a pulse pressure of several tons on the sidewalls.
Assuming one wall would be 10cm x 30cm, then the force will be:
5 Bar = 10 x 30 x 5 = ~1500 Kg
10 Bar = 10 x 30 x 10 = ~3000 Kg
15 Bar = 10 x 30 x 15 = ~4500 Kg
20 Bar = 10 x 30 x 20 = ~6000 Kg
25 Bar = 10 x 30 x 25 = ~7500 Kg
30 Bar = 10 x 30 x 30 = ~9000 Kg
It may be clear from the above given example, that even a 5 Bar exploding bottle can propel a container wall with such a force and speed as to
actually Kill a person. Secondary explosions caused by ignited flammable vapor blasts, may further assist in a violent death of those in the direct
facilities of such an incident. A simple pressurized Champagne bottle experiment, may not be so simple for a Surgeon who has to sew back together a
survivor of such an accident 
Regards,
Lambda.
|
|
|
Lambda
National Hazard
Posts: 566
Registered: 15-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Euforic Online
|
|
By hanging a Metal wire maze reinforced Champagne bottle in a metal pipe section, will not only add to protection, but also ensure a good heat
distribution of warm air around this bottle. A water bath in a sturdy container, in which this Bottle is completely submerged, will also add to
protection and even heat distribution.
Regards,
Lambda.
|
|
|
Ozone
International Hazard
Posts: 1269
Registered: 28-7-2005
Location: Good Olde USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Integrated
|
|
See also Sorenson, Wayne R.and Campbell Tod. W. (1968) Preparative Methods of Polymer Chemistry.John Wiley & Sons, Inc.
Chapter 2, Preparation, Fabrication, and Characterization of Polymers, pp. 8 Sealed Tube Reactions (esp. Fig. 2.3 which depicts a metal pipe fragged
by an exploded sealed glass tube).
Also see, pp. 11-12 on pressure vessels for polymerization (fig. 2.5), "Alternatively, the commercially available pressure bottles or *ordinary
carbonated beverage bottles* with an appropriate closure may be used where the pressures dealt with are not excessive. For example, butadiene at
temperatures of up to 60°C can be safely contained, but vinyl chloride (b.p. -13°C) is marginal in safety at 40°C. It has been found that a
beverage bottle closed with a rubber septum and standard metal cap will withstand up to 200 p.s.i. at slow loading, at which point the cap will
usually blow off. In a few instances will the bottle itself shatter before the cap fails, but bottles should be handled in every case as if this were
likely to happen."
Note that rate of pressure increase is as critical as the final pressure wrt. catastrophic failure of the container--Never shock load the vessel!
At any rate, this seems relevent (One of the pressure vessels looks an aweful lot like a Grolsch bottle!).
Good luck and be careful,
O3
-Anyone who never made a mistake never tried anything new.
--Albert Einstein
|
|
|
asilentbob
Harmless
Posts: 24
Registered: 4-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: *sigh*
|
|
Thanks for that info!
Grolsh bottles are pretty handy for homebrew and I believe I read that they are one of the brands that still comes in somewhat thick walled bottles.
They, and other thick wall bottles are recommended for homebrew soda pop that is carbonated through yeast to make exploding bottles less likely. I
have 3 or so of the small Grolsh ones and then 4 1L brown swing top bottles too. I don't think i would trust any of them to over 45psi though.
Champagne bottles though have much thicker glass walls.
I would have many safety features present including blow off valves, distance between it and myself, rubber coated steel mesh wrapping, steel plates,
etc.
So many ideas... too few dealing with chemistry.
|
|
|
Aurum
Harmless
Posts: 34
Registered: 19-5-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What is your local mains water pressure? If you pressurise the bottle from the mains and then heat it (in a water bath), any failure will not result
in a violent explosion.
If you can somehow get a static pressurised water supply, that would be even better. Any suggestions anyone?
Another thought, if you sealed the bottle at 20C with say 2cc of air and the rest water, heat it to some temperature, can the internal pressure be
calculated. Again, any failure would not result in an explosion if you did it in a (not boiling) water bath.
|
|
|
Organikum
resurrected
Posts: 2339
Registered: 12-10-2002
Location: Europe
Member Is Offline
Mood: frustrated
|
|
Thats a soda bottle which is available here where I live for almost nothing in second hand stores. This is almost perfect.
Champagne bottles handle pressure up to 8 bar easily, temperature when applied equally is no issue.
Same for the good old glass Coke bottles, which are in my eyes more trustworthy then champagne bottles, for they have been massproduced for decades to
high standards for bad abuse by stupid fucks who would love to sue the company if anything goes wrong.
Scenario: Bottle full of coke bollering around under the backwindow of a car offroad in the death valley in summer together with some metal tools.
Bottle shall not explode by design.
Estimate temperature and pressure peaks.
I suppose the coke bottle is one of the most underestimated pieces of great engineering ever.
The real problem with coke and even more champagne bottles is to fix a tight seal without weakening or damaging the bottle.
A setup with a cage of threaded bars supported by strong springs around the bottle to press down a seal seems to me the only serious option.
A metal net as shown with the soda bottle is of course always a good idea. A sealed confinement is of course a utmost stupid idea - this is more the
concept of for pipe-bomb.
/ORG
|
|
|
picketfence
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 15-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Gas tanks with the inner valve drilled out for the addition of reagents and a brass needle valve/stopcock soldered shut are a better option when the
safety of the champagne bottle's in question.
|
|
|
The_deadly_dustbin
Harmless
Posts: 10
Registered: 8-2-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I'll second Org's oppinion. As long as the bottles are not scratched/scored/chipped-off there's no problem for such a thickwalled vessel (we're
talking about several milimeters) to handle close to 10 atm (146 psi...praise to the metric system brothers and sisters) overpressure. If you wanna be
on the safe side, bag it in some wire mesh or wrap it in duct tape.
If you're really concerned about glass flying all over your lab, go with a CO2 fire extinguisher.
You might however get some problems with this when it comes to handling corrosive agents.
|
|
|
hinz
Hazard to Others
Posts: 200
Registered: 29-10-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Another method to avoid glass scrapnell would be to wrap alot of plastic tape around the entire champagne bottle. If the bottle breaks, it will
probably only rip open at one side, the tape will hold the scrapnells together, so they won't fly around the room. This is basically the same trick as
in car windshields and nearly all cars have it now, so it should work.
There is this brown tape, used to enclose parcels for shipping. It has excellent tensile strenght, so it might be used for this purpose. It's made of
thin PE-foil, so I expect it to be temperature resistant to appr. 90°C.
http://www9.yatego.com/images/3f8bcf6b78da39.2/81055%5B1%5D....
|
|
|
solo
International Hazard
Posts: 3975
Registered: 9-12-2002
Location: Estados Unidos de La Republica Mexicana
Member Is Offline
Mood: ....getting old and drowning in a sea of knowledge
|
|
I liked Org's idea as I have to try a methylation that requires a closed vessel at 100 C for one hour then 120 C for 10 minutes. I haven't figured
out a way to know the temp inside and want to use a heating mantle...not exactly even heat for the whole bottle but will attach a thermometeron the
side of the vessel to at least have an idea as to the temp...whish I had a thermocuple which I understand can go inside the reaction vessel and give
accurate readings..I will use a metal pipe sleeve over the bottle for protection with some insulation............solo
It's better to die on your feet, than live on your knees....Emiliano Zapata.
|
|
|
bio2
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 15-1-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
One of those lace up beaker type heating mantles. would
be ideal. A slow cooker could also be dismantled for the
heating blanket .These are 200-300 watts and a dimmer could be used for heat control.
I've had good luck with soda lime wine bottles in an up to
200deg oil bath only 2-3 inches deep.
[Edited on by bio2]
|
|
|
madcease
Harmless
Posts: 48
Registered: 9-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
How would one go about mag stiring a solution using a champagne bottle?
I had the assumption that they wernt flat on the bottom?
|
|
|
bio2
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 15-1-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Maybe the magnet would balance on the indent if
it's not too far from the stirrer.
Probably not too practical because how would you realign
a spinout when the bottle is hot?
|
|
|
Fleaker
International Hazard
Posts: 1252
Registered: 19-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: nucleophilic
|
|
My hydrogenator bottles are 250 mL capacity and they can be heated to 150*C. They are mounted on a shaker platform. The glass does not appear very
thick at all, perhaps 3/16th of an inch, or maybe 4.8 mm thick.
My lab partner has used champagne bottles at 90*C and probably 120 psi with no problems whatsoever.
Neither flask nor beaker.
"Kid, you don't even know just what you don't know. "
--The Dark Lord Sauron
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I used normal 100ml and 250ml Fluka reagent bottles (the ones you get your liquid reagents in when you buy Fluka chemicals). Immersed up to 3/4 height
in water or oil baths (the plastic stopper must be outside the bath!) and heated up to 120°C they handle solvent systems generating 2 to 4 bar at
those temperatures without any problems. The good thing is that you need not worry about the bottle shattering since the plastic stopper is wide
enough so that the force on it is great enough to raise the teflon coating enough for the overpressure to leak when the temperature used is too high
and consequently the pressure raise too much (a sort of a security valve).
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
|
|
|
volfrahm
Harmless
Posts: 11
Registered: 25-7-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Foamy
|
|
Pressure Vessels
| Quote: | Originally posted by evil_lurker
In the mail today I got a Chemglass 350ml pressure vessel with #15 threaded teflon stopper that is supposedly good to 150psi.
Will have to try it out... will post results later. |
This caught my eye. Did you ever get a chance to try it out?
How easy would it be to modify the teflon stopper for hydrogenations?
|
|
|
madcease
Harmless
Posts: 48
Registered: 9-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Would a Paint Shaker be better than a home made apparatus for hydrogenation?
Or is stir using Parr bottle a better option. The reason i say this is because i think id rather use metal over glass any day
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by volfrahm
How easy would it be to modify the teflon stopper for hydrogenations? |
No need for any fancy teflon stopper if you use a hydrogenatior like the classical Parr shaker type apparatus which has a thick glass bottle fit with a rubber stopper connected only with a polypropylene tube. There is no
additional element on the stopper, but this is because the stopper is tightly pressed on the bottle with a press-like holder made of metal.
Consequently the fit between the glass/rubber/tube gets pressed as well and there is no leakage. The common laboratory rubber stoppers with one hole
are used. So if you want to use this type of rubber stopper/polypropilene tube you need to construct the bottle holder as well.
…there is a human touch of the cultist “believer” in every theorist that he must struggle against as being
unworthy of the scientist. Some of the greatest men of science have publicly repudiated a theory which earlier they hotly defended. In this lies their
scientific temper, not in the scientific defense of the theory. - Weston La Barre (Ghost Dance, 1972)
Read the The ScienceMadness Guidelines!
|
|
|
madcease
Harmless
Posts: 48
Registered: 9-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nicodem once one has constucted the press-like holder. What is best to use to seal the tube inside the rubber stopper?
|
|
|
bio2
Hazard to Others
Posts: 447
Registered: 15-1-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The tube should seal by compression alone although it wouldn't hurt to back it up with some RTV Silicone if it's
compatible with the chemicals used.
Nothing really sticks to polypropylene or polyethylene.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
