SplendidAcylation
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 28-10-2018
Location: Starving in some deep mystery
Member Is Offline
Mood: No one I think is in my tree.
|
|
UK: Hydrochloric acid, phosphoric acid, and hexamine now restricted/banned!
I'm surprised there isn't already a thread on this topic, but there doesn't seem to be...
I was just checking the list of regulated explosive precursors and poisons on the UK government website, to see if barium compounds were there (they
are!), and I came upon something that I could not quite believe.
As of 1st October 2023, the government have sneaked some new additions to the list of regulated chemicals, three of which in particular caught my
attention:
Hydrochloric acid (10% w/w)
Phosphoric acid (30% w/w)
Hexamine
Here is the full list here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/supplying-explosi...
Is this really happening, or am I hallucinating (perhaps I have inadvertently inhaled too much nickel vapours in my recent experiments)?
Most of the things on those lists are vaguely understandable, but hydrochloric acid, how on earth is this an explosive precursor?
Until now, i have taken it for granted that hydrochloric acid is the one strong mineral acid that is, and always would remain, freely accessible, due
to the fact that it isn't involved with explosive production in any way that I am aware of.
Now, to be fair, it isn't a huge problem, because it is possible to distil hydrochloric acid, obtaining the azeotropic concentration of 20.2% w/w, but
that is nowhere near the 35% concentration that was previously readily available.
As for phosphoric acid, I suppose it is possible to concentrate phosphoric acid by evaporating off the water somewhat, however i have a vague memory
that it polymerizes or something, with prolonged boiling.
As for hexamine, this can of course be made from ammonia and formaldehyde.
So all in all, it isn't really a huge problem for me, at least, but I just find it totally shocking and quite scary, to be honest!
Apologies if I made some errors, this is really a rushed post, I look forward to discussing the chemistry by which we can circumvent these new
restrictions in further posts.
I think it might be a good idea to go around various outdoor/camping stores to see if they have any hexamine tablets in stock, it is possible they
might have not received the memo.
Hexamine is very useful in organic chemistry, for the Delepine reaction and the Sommelet, among others I'm sure.
There are also still some listings for hydroponic pH down on eBay, those are 81% phosphoric acid, so it might be worth buying some, before they
realize they are committing a crime and remove their listings...
|
|
|
RU_KLO
Hazard to Others
Posts: 225
Registered: 12-10-2022
Location: Argentina
Member Is Offline
|
|
I dont know how is it in UK, but in my country, buying, producing or storing is the same problem (I think that producing is harsher). So if they knock
at your door....
Go SAFE, because stupidity and bad Luck exist.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Re. "
As for hexamine, this can of course be made from ammonia and formaldehyde."
Only if you can still get them
formaldehyde 5% w/w (CAS RN 50-00-0)
Is on that list.
|
|
|
SplendidAcylation
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 28-10-2018
Location: Starving in some deep mystery
Member Is Offline
Mood: No one I think is in my tree.
|
|
@unionised,
Formaldehyde is under the "Reportable poisons" category;
Anything under the "Reportable" headings are still available legally, however suspicious transactions must be reported.
Anything under the "Regulated" headings are illegal to sell/buy/possess without a licence...
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If I was a shop, I'd think really hard about not stocking formaldehyde- just to save myself paperwork / hassle/ getting lumbered with a product I
wouldn't be able to sell if they changed the rules.
Anyone feel like distilling acetal plastic shavings?
|
|
|
Sir_Gawain
Hazard to Others
Posts: 457
Registered: 12-10-2022
Location: [REDACTED]
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stable
|
|
Distilling acetal yields formaldehyde?
“Alchemy is trying to turn things yellow; chemistry is trying to avoid things turning yellow.” -Tom deP.
|
|
|
BJ68
Hazard to Others
Posts: 105
Registered: 12-3-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
https://www.reddit.com/r/brexit/comments/b7dgsz/2000years_la...
bj68
|
|
|
SplendidAcylation
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 28-10-2018
Location: Starving in some deep mystery
Member Is Offline
Mood: No one I think is in my tree.
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  | If I was a shop, I'd think really hard about not stocking formaldehyde- just to save myself paperwork / hassle/ getting lumbered with a product I
wouldn't be able to sell if they changed the rules.
Anyone feel like distilling acetal plastic shavings? |
Well if they did change the rules they would probably limit the concentration rather than ban it completely, so you'd just have to dilute the stocks
you had 
Paraformaldehyde isn't listed there, so I'm not sure if that is even counted at all.
Anyway, there are still plenty of places where you can buy formaldehyde at the moment in the UK.
It can also be made, of course, by passing methanol vapour over a heated coil; Catalytic dehydrogenation.
@BJ68
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2799
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
Phosphoric acid can indeed be concentrated by heating. Its high affinity for water means that this requires high temperatures. At all concentrations
above 85%, when in the liquid phase, phosphoric acid exists as a mixture of oligomers, eventually forming a negative azeotrope with bp ~860 C and a
molar composition of roughly 1:1 H3P3O9:P2O5.
IIRC, if phosphoric acid is concentrated just the right amount, it will all crystallize as pure diphosphoric acid, H4P2O7, under standard conditions.
[edit by mod]
Removed accidental smilie.
[Edited on 14-4-2024 by j_sum1]
|
|
|
Alkoholvergiftung
Hazard to Others
Posts: 188
Registered: 12-7-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
clearly_not_atara what would be the best material for boiling phosphoric acid? copper? it attacks glas so its on the long term no option.
|
|
|
Keras
National Hazard
Posts: 929
Registered: 20-8-2018
Location: (48, 2)
Member Is Online
|
|
Really, I think the best way to ‘concentrate’ phosphoric acid is to add phosphorus oxide to it until you reach 100%. Phosphorus oxide is not easy
to source, but it is not restricted, contrarily to phosphorus itself.
|
|
|
Conure
Hazard to Self
Posts: 53
Registered: 6-2-2023
Location: Schweden
Member Is Offline
|
|
Damn, you brittish people are ahead of us in sweden. We can still order 30% HCl and 85% H3PO4. However in 2025 NaOH and KOH will be gone from the
public. The motivation is that it causes too many accidents.
Fire is good. Fire is life.
|
|
|
Belowzero
Hazard to Others
Posts: 173
Registered: 6-5-2020
Location: Member Is Offline
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Conure | | Damn, you brittish people are ahead of us in sweden. We can still order 30% HCl and 85% H3PO4. However in 2025 NaOH and KOH will be gone from the
public. The motivation is that it causes too many accidents. |
Pretty sure more accidents happen with water, perhaps they should do that next.
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2799
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
I think you could use graphite but I would suggest trying a small amount first. But glass has decent resistance at the concentrations we're usually
interested in. It's only when you get to very high temperatures and concentrations that the attack on glass becomes severe.
EDIT: in particular, decomposition of monoammonium phosphate in a graphite crucible might be a possibility
[Edited on 25-1-2024 by clearly_not_atara]
|
|
|
ManyInterests
National Hazard
Posts: 934
Registered: 19-5-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
This is just nuts. I bought a few packs of hexamine fuel tablets recently even though I have too much hexamine. It is stuff like this that really irks
me. It's also why I stocked up on a lot of sulfuric acid and nitrates.
|
|
|
EF2000
Hazard to Others
Posts: 153
Registered: 10-5-2023
Location: The Steppes
Member Is Offline
Mood: Taste testing the Tonka fuel
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by SplendidAcylation |
Most of the things on those lists are vaguely understandable, but hydrochloric acid, how on earth is this an explosive precursor?
Until now, i have taken it for granted that hydrochloric acid is the one strong mineral acid that is, and always would remain, freely accessible, due
to the fact that it isn't involved with explosive production in any way that I am aware of.
|
Unfortunately, it really is an explosive precursor. TATP syntesis requires any relatively strong mineral acid: sulfuric, nitric, hydrochloric,
phosphoric. Hydrochloric is said to give best results. Phosphoric acid can also be used to prepare HMTD, though usually it's done with citric acid.
Sulfuric and nitric are already regulated, so now they came for hydrochloric and phosphoric. (One day they'll come for citric acid, and there would be
no more lemons and oranges in the UK.)
Wroom wroom
"The practice of pouring yourself alcohol from a rocket fuel tank is to be strongly condemned encouraged"
-R-1 User's Guide
|
|
|
LookingForAnswers
Harmless
Posts: 17
Registered: 25-3-2024
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I've seen in Home Bargains "killrock" descaler ( black one ) and there is some small concentrations of H3PO4. i dont remember volume but maybe
someone will be interested
Chemistry Pope
|
|
|
LookingForAnswers
Harmless
Posts: 17
Registered: 25-3-2024
Location: United Kingdom
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Im not sure how this ban is working but on ebay is still avaible ph down which is 81% phosphoric acid...
Chemistry Pope
|
|
|
Precipitates
Hazard to Others
Posts: 136
Registered: 4-12-2023
Location: SE Asia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Acid hungry
|
|
The worry is whose watching*
If you live on a farm you're probably okay, but large amounts of pH down for a residential address, probably a bit strange and law enforcement may
want to check on you - and if they find any other "chemicals", that will raise their suspicions that you're not planning to use the pH down for it's
intended use, so must be making a bomb.
If you've got a license for the "hobby" use of chemicals, you will probably be okay, but I'm not sure how easy it is to get that license from the home
office.
*This could be just paranoia, but I'm sure there are not that many suppliers, so it wouldn't be too difficult for the police to check-up on who they
are selling to. Additionally, I've had packages arrive in terrible condition and smelling really bad with leakage e.g., 880 ammonia, so there is a
risk your neighbours are going to know what you've ordered i.e. "dangerous chemicals!!!". They will call the cops if they are super-scared of
chemicals - as a lot of people seem to be - or/and don't get on well with you anyway.
[Edited on 16-5-2024 by Precipitates]
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
