jhonn
Harmless
Posts: 16
Registered: 19-11-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Urea + potassium chlorate as an explosive.
Since urea has -NH2 reducing groups, and chlorate is a strong oxidizer, it would behave similarly to ammonium nitrate. Though the oxidizer
and reducer in ammonium nitrate are ions of the same salt, (therefore, very well mixed), this would be compensated by the higher oxidizing power of
chlorates in comparison to nitrates. I know that ammonium chlorate is a very unstable explosive, and is not used because of its instability. But what
about the potassium chlorate/urea mix ? If the chlorate/urea is too unstable, then what about perchlorate/urea ?
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
You want to replace the high energy density generic hydrocarbon fuel with urea? You'll end up with insensitive hygroscopic cr*p.
May be the mates will tell, is it a good idea to improve the OB and energy density of urea nitrate by adding a little ball milled chlorate?
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1681
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
i would say if you wanna check for any potential you should try mixing 0.1g amounts in total and hammering it
perhaps ... molten KClO3 with urea
by that you should be able to see if it can work at all..
|
|
|
Motherload
Hazard to Others
Posts: 245
Registered: 12-8-2012
Location: Sewer
Member Is Offline
Mood: Shitty
|
|
Last I checked .... Urea didn't burn to well.
Using it in a mix is probably going to be a waste.
Urea perchlorate is a different story.
I cannot comment on the stability of urea chlorate.
"Chance favours the prepared mind"
"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Seems like a bad idea for several reasons. Urea is a terrible fuel. The only reason it would ever be used is because it can form energetic salts, with
the fuel and oxidizer intermixed on a molecular level in the same crystal lattice. But you are not talking about that, you are talking about a simply
physical mix. In pyrotechnic compositions, the urea mostly just tends to melt into a puddle and not burn. The first step in the thermal decomposition
releases NH3, not a very flammable gas. Then there would probably be compatibility problems between the urea and chlorate, it would not be safe to
store (do some research on the hazards/instability of ammonium chlorate for further details)
I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
While i've never tried urea, I experimented with varying proportions of powdered, dry hexamine and KClO3. When the mix was right, it burned so very
fast, with a WHOOOMP sound. reminisent of perchlorate flash powder.
I didn't do any impact testing, but I wonderd if it would be detonable if it was dead pressed or tamped to a suitable density, and initiated by a
compound cap (lead azide/TNP) kind of like a cheddite compsition.
Definatly wouldnt want to play with large amounts or try to store it in any way. Im sure thats true for most chlorate composistions though...
[Edited on 21-4-2013 by Bot0nist]
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Ral123
National Hazard
Posts: 735
Registered: 31-12-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Lead azide is not to b mixed with acidic compounds. I've heard such configuration looses power in a matter of weeks. Obviously, HN3 is also formed
then.
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1681
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  | While i've never tried urea, I experimented with varying proportions of powdered, dry hexamine and KClO3. When the mix was right, it burned so very
fast, with a WHOOOMP sound. reminisent of perchlorate flash powder.
I didn't do any impact testing, but I wonderd if it would be detonable if it was dead pressed or tamped to a suitable density, and initiated by a
compound cap (lead azide/TNP) kind of like a cheddite compsition.
Definatly wouldnt want to play with large amounts or try to store it in any way. Im sure thats true for most chlorate composistions though...
[Edited on 21-4-2013 by Bot0nist] |
interesting...
around what ratios did you use?
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
I didnt take notes, an it was a long time ago. do some small scale testing, and you'll know when the mix is right. it will burn fast and easily, like
a flash powder.
I am aware about the compatability issues with azide and TNP. those "science experiments consistided of small amounds of each, in a plastic straw.
they were never stored, even briefly, an was made and used right away. It was just what I had on hand, at the time.
Be safe guys.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Fantasma4500
International Hazard
Posts: 1681
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline
Mood: dangerously practical
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist | I didnt take notes, an it was a long time ago. do some small scale testing, and you'll know when the mix is right. it will burn fast and easily, like
a flash powder.
|
well what flashpowder are we talking about here anyways.. slowflash as in nitratebased or chlorate with bad aluminium or good magnesium powder
sentisized with sulfur charcoal and iron oxide? 
i tried it
i did get a very very strange mixture..
it pulsed up and down and i couldnt seem to find a ratio that was different at all.. very strange.. i used KClO3 recrystallized from NaClO3 + KCl so
it was pure enough for the purpose..
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
I was speaking of perchlorate/dark Al flashpowder,as far as burn rate.
For the pyrotechnic mix of hexamine and KClO3 make sure the hexamine is super dry, as it is hydroscopic, and make sure it very finely powdered as it
often comes in clumps and beads. Mix it intimently with the KClO3.
I can't remember the ratios though. Some stoichiometry may help here.
It takes a bit to take light, but when it did, whoosh!
I was more curious about its ability to undergo detonation when initiated by a primary to secondary explosive train. Will it behave like DNT(or even
wax)/KClO3 "cheditte, compositions...
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
Precipitates
Hazard to Others
Posts: 136
Registered: 4-12-2023
Location: SE Asia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Acid hungry
|
|
Urea + potassium chlorate
Orchard chemicals explosion kills 3 workers:
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2694663
Explosive and very dangerous in kilogram quantities.
|
|
|
yobbo II
National Hazard
Posts: 765
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What is this stuff?
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/158017922
Yob
|
|
|
Precipitates
Hazard to Others
Posts: 136
Registered: 4-12-2023
Location: SE Asia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Acid hungry
|
|
Looks like just a 1:1 mix of potassium chlorate and urea
A compound (mixture) of the two chemicals
|
|
|
Sir_Gawain
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 12-10-2022
Location: [REDACTED]
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stable
|
|
It appears to be an adduct. Like urea (hydrogen) peroxide.
“Alchemy is trying to turn things yellow; chemistry is trying to avoid things turning yellow.” -Tom deP.
|
|
|
yobbo II
National Hazard
Posts: 765
Registered: 28-3-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Is it explosive?
|
|
|
Sir_Gawain
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 12-10-2022
Location: [REDACTED]
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stable
|
|
I'll make some tomorrow and try it.
“Alchemy is trying to turn things yellow; chemistry is trying to avoid things turning yellow.” -Tom deP.
|
|
|
Sir_Gawain
Hazard to Others
Posts: 458
Registered: 12-10-2022
Location: [REDACTED]
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stable
|
|
I combined saturated solutions of urea and potassium chlorate at about 80*C and let it slowly cool. A bunch of crystals formed, which looked exactly
like potassium chlorate. I don’t think the adduct formed, but I’ll have to test it.
“Alchemy is trying to turn things yellow; chemistry is trying to avoid things turning yellow.” -Tom deP.
|
|
|
Laboratory of Liptakov
International Hazard
Posts: 1411
Registered: 2-9-2014
Location: Technion Haifa
Member Is Offline
Mood: old jew
|
|
https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/patent/RU-2487539-C1
KClO3 + urea (carbamide) is Pyrotechnical smoke-forming composition. Patented in Russia. I guess, that for KClO3 exist a lot better fuels than
carbamide if the results should be some high energetics....
Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023) Nitrocelite and KC primer (2024)
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
