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akmetal
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Selling Chemicals online
Does anyone know what well-known online platforms or marketplaces allow you to sell hazmat?
I have read that Amazon and eBay do not allow it even if you disclose and are selling via hazmat shippers, etc.
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Texium
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Thread Moved
13-12-2023 at 08:03 |
Raid
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Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials.
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Dr.Bob
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The challenge is that if you ship hazmat without proper training, licenses, and DOT paperwork, you can get arrested and fined 1000's of dollars.
That is why part of selling chemicals is a nightmare, as the feds can drive you into bankruptcy easily for shipping hazmats without proper process.
Just knowing if something is a hazard to ship can be a challenge, there are whole databases and books on it. And while there are exceptions to the
rules, you have to document how your material fits into the exceptions to use them.
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akmetal
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I am going to hire a 3rd party to handle the hazmat process for me, we have a shipping company here that specializes in hazmat (paper work, licencing,
etc etc). I just tell them what it is (UN code) and they do the rest.
My main concern is figuring out how to market it since so many platforms say you cant even market hazmat even if you are using a 3rd party who
specializes in moving the product. 99% nitric acid is most definitely not an exception to amazon or ebay so I need to find a platform that does not
restrict it, im not interested in trying to dance around these rules I just want to find a platform where I can market freely until I can get enough
traffic to my site (once I finish it).
Because its coming from AK I would eat the difference in shipping between what it would cost to just do ground hazmat in the lower 48. Or hopefully,
find under served markets who don't mind paying for the shipping.
Theres no way I would mess with the legal side of hazmat by myself, thats just asking for problems as you guys have stated.
Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob  | | The challenge is that if you ship hazmat without proper training, licenses, and DOT paperwork, you can get arrested and fined 1000's of dollars.
That is why part of selling chemicals is a nightmare, as the feds can drive you into bankruptcy easily for shipping hazmats without proper process.
Just knowing if something is a hazard to ship can be a challenge, there are whole databases and books on it. And while there are exceptions to the
rules, you have to document how your material fits into the exceptions to use them. |
[Edited on 14-12-2023 by akmetal]
[Edited on 14-12-2023 by akmetal]
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fx-991ex
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Should probably make your own online website for the sale.
I hope you are in Canada, we really need more chemical suppliers  I will be a
customer if thats the case.
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akmetal
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| Quote: Originally posted by Raid | | Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials. |
I am a registered professional engineer in chemical and electrical. Is this in reference to the USA? I did extensive research of the FARs and never
seen anything requiring the lab itself needing to be registered.
The regulations came into play with DOT and Hazmat.
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akmetal
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| Quote: Originally posted by fx-991ex | Should probably make your own online website for the sale.
I hope you are in Canada, we really need more chemical suppliers I will be a
customer if thats the case. |
I am in Alaska which is pretty close. Yes I am building my own website, I am using word press but its slow and tedious and I can either work on the
lab or work on the web site so I might hire out the finish of the web site as I know its going to get tedious when I need to start adding pay pal
links and the like.
Im not going to be that buisenss that has "call for a quote" and then it takes them days to get back.
My idea is to have QT graphics with levels/quantites remaining with like little level gauges and sell in increments of whatever bottles I can find and
have the hazmat shipping quotes pre-determined to try to avoid a "TBD" for shipping, or at least be able to give a rough estimate +- so much.
However, being a new buisenss being able to utilitize sites like ebay to get started is very helpful. Once I have product stored and ready to sell my
wife is going to start setting things up on the buisness end (insurance, tax ID, and getting a linkedin premium to start reaching out to companies)
but the companies that are easy to find on linkedin will also be the same companies with inroads to the major supply houses and will be looking for
cut rate pricing which im not really interested in, I started the lab to make money not give stuff away for free so finding the under served market
will be tougher.
Just on here to see if there are sites like ebay that dont have draconian rules about listing hazmat that have at least somewhat of a household name.
Do you use ultra pure nitric or do you just need the much cheaper sub azeotropic nitric?
[Edited on 14-12-2023 by akmetal]
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Raid
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| Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | Quote: Originally posted by Raid | | Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials. |
I am a registered professional engineer in chemical and electrical. Is this in reference to the USA? I did extensive research of the FARs and never
seen anything requiring the lab itself needing to be registered.
The regulations came into play with DOT and Hazmat. |
Yes, This is in reference to the USA. Many companies that would ship hazmat materials will ask for a lab certificate and registration along with
confirmation of ownership of that lab in question.
Any reputable seller will also ask for some of those same documents to even be able to buy hazmat chemicals.
This means that your buyers will be limited to people who have a registered lab and sales could be harder to achieve.
You could probably get away with selling it without asking for lab certificates from the buyer but if any major government organizations find out you
could be in some legal trouble.
Unless you have a registered lab, DOT/GV documents, and a lot of money or a proper company to sell if for you then selling or even making a profit may
be hard.
I'm not exactly how expensive the DOT/GV documents are as I have never been in the situation that you are in but I'm guessing that they will cost a
good chunk of money.
If you only sell HNO3 make sure you are on a scale large enough to make it profitable.
I wish you luck 
[Edited on 14-12-2023 by Raid]
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | Quote: Originally posted by Raid | | Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials. |
I am a registered professional engineer in chemical and electrical. Is this in reference to the USA? I did extensive research of the FARs and never
seen anything requiring the lab itself needing to be registered.
The regulations came into play with DOT and Hazmat. |
As a general rule, take what Raid says with a grain of
salt. He often makes very confident sounding statements without actually knowing what he’s talking about. It sounds like you actually read up and
understand the regulations. Raid is making assumptions based on big companies (Sigma et al) that refuse to sell to individuals. There isn’t a law
against selling to individuals. They simply stand to profit the most from selling to companies and research institutions, and the minuscule profits
they’d make from selling to individuals would not be worth the associated risk of those chemicals being misused, bringing them a PR headache and
possibly lawsuits.
That being said, there is the real possibility that someone could sue you because a customer misused a chemical that you legally sold to them (since
people can seemingly sue anyone for any reason in this country). Even though it is legal, you could still be accused of negligence. I am not a lawyer
though, and I would suggest you consult one for advice on how to avoid that.
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akmetal
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| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | | Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | Quote: Originally posted by Raid | | Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials. |
I am a registered professional engineer in chemical and electrical. Is this in reference to the USA? I did extensive research of the FARs and never
seen anything requiring the lab itself needing to be registered.
The regulations came into play with DOT and Hazmat. |
As a general rule, take what Raid says with a grain of
salt. He often makes very confident sounding statements without actually knowing what he’s talking about. It sounds like you actually read up and
understand the regulations. Raid is making assumptions based on big companies (Sigma et al) that refuse to sell to individuals. There isn’t a law
against selling to individuals. They simply stand to profit the most from selling to companies and research institutions, and the minuscule profits
they’d make from selling to individuals would not be worth the associated risk of those chemicals being misused, bringing them a PR headache and
possibly lawsuits.
That being said, there is the real possibility that someone could sue you because a customer misused a chemical that you legally sold to them (since
people can seemingly sue anyone for any reason in this country). Even though it is legal, you could still be accused of negligence. I am not a lawyer
though, and I would suggest you consult one for advice on how to avoid that. |
Thats correct, my wife is going to help me find product liability insurance, form an LLC and perhaps have a lawyer on retainer for such things. This
is also why I want to hand off the product to hazmat professionals to make sure its properly bottled and packaged and documented so it would be nearly
impossible for anyone to claim negligance and for it to get beyond my layer sending the court all the documents from the hazmat people it will be
labeled as frivolous. I mean every auto parts store would be bankrupt if that were the case as they sell all sorts of hazmat. I also did quite a bit
of digging on ATF permits in case I want to make full-blown explosives and its not as hard as people think (if you have a family member with 40 acres
of land in the middle of nowhere Alaska to build a magazine and then doing R&D to attempt to get a govt contract.
I would never sell sub azeotropic HNO3 as there is no money, the value is in 99% HNO3 which sells for between 2400-3200 per liter plus the shipping.
This does limit my market because I learned well into the process that fertilizer and by extension ANFO only require sub azeotropic HNO3 to synthesize
which is the cheap stuff and not worth selling as a small business, the ultra pure is used for high grade military explosvies (RDX, PETN, etc) and
rocket fuels
I mean if there is a legitimate FAR that specifically requires the lab to be certified I would like to know but I could find no such FR, DOT does not
apply until you start shipping it. I heard alot of people say there is but no one could find a federal regulation. Technically if your not
transporting across state lines you probably dont even need a DOT permit unless the state has a regulation on it.
3200 for a liter of HNO3 is an extra pay check a month, once the process is semi-automated thats enough to dump into the next buisenss project or save
for nicer real estate/buildings for future projects or expansion. The goal is to make enough money to start a free electron laser project and see if
I can create anti matter in a controlled manner and sell it, we are not going to be able to build star ships until we harness anti-matter, its just
that simple.
But yes if you drop this stuff in the mail box your going to jail lol.
Do you know if there is some online platform that allows you to list it for sale?
I am working on getting my disabled veterans status so if at the end of this maybe I can just sell ordinance to the military as an 8A small disable
vet buisness. As scary as HNO3 is full blown ordinance kinda scares the hell out of me though so at that point it may be time to pivot lol.
It would suck because the lab is sweet and almost fully automated. You get an emotional attachment to things you build from scratch.
[Edited on 15-12-2023 by akmetal]
[Edited on 15-12-2023 by akmetal]
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akmetal
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| Quote: Originally posted by Raid | | Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | Quote: Originally posted by Raid | | Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials. |
I am a registered professional engineer in chemical and electrical. Is this in reference to the USA? I did extensive research of the FARs and never
seen anything requiring the lab itself needing to be registered.
The regulations came into play with DOT and Hazmat. |
Yes, This is in reference to the USA. Many companies that would ship hazmat materials will ask for a lab certificate and registration along with
confirmation of ownership of that lab in question.
Any reputable seller will also ask for some of those same documents to even be able to buy hazmat chemicals.
This means that your buyers will be limited to people who have a registered lab and sales could be harder to achieve.
You could probably get away with selling it without asking for lab certificates from the buyer but if any major government organizations find out you
could be in some legal trouble.
Unless you have a registered lab, DOT/GV documents, and a lot of money or a proper company to sell if for you then selling or even making a profit may
be hard.
I'm not exactly how expensive the DOT/GV documents are as I have never been in the situation that you are in but I'm guessing that they will cost a
good chunk of money.
If you only sell HNO3 make sure you are on a scale large enough to make it profitable.
I wish you luck
[Edited on 14-12-2023 by Raid] |
Let me know if you find the specific regulations, I searched a long time before I started building structures and building equipment and never found
them, that doesn't mean they don't exist but I couldn't find them and as a pilot and engineer, I had to study FAR's, EPA, and looked into ATF and
dabbled a little in FDA regs as well as DOT for my oil pipeline days.
Also, law and politics are touchy subjects so its probably better to just site the regulation because it's adversarial by its very nature. Most
legitimate business don't want to break the law but if your just making stuff up because you think its true your going to damage your credibility
because now your trying to passive aggressively dictate to people
I also stated above that im interested in making pure nitric not sub azeotropic ....
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Sulaiman
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Other than amateurs, who would buy from you, rather than directly from the big suppliers?
What can you offer that your suppliers do not?
Currently not the best business and political environment for such a start-up?
(I'd considered similar andt decided against such risks, but I wish you well if you proceed.)
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
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dettoo456
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First, scrap the WFNA idea; most consumers of that (energetics companies) wont even buy it since they have their own HNO3 & NH3 plants. Second,
the only way you’d likely procure it is in tank car qtys and shipping for that is a nightmare unless you have a HNO3 plant somewhere nearby (let
alone a HNO3 that produces WFNA since most don’t bother concentrating above azeo). Third, common people (consumer demographic) likely won’t be
willing to spend even <$200/L of WFNA since it’s easy to make on their own.
On the other hand, Nitric at 68% is currently available in 55gal qtys at around $14/gal (at least where I’m at on the west coast). And 1 55 gallon
drum for around $770 is definitely considered accessible if you plan on starting a business. So the azeo concentration range is your best bet for at
least breaking even if you sell at <$20/L. All you’d need is a peristaltic pump, some bottles and PTFE caps, packaging, and the acid ofc.
Stuff like Oxalyl chloride or NaBH4 at affordable prices could also be profitable - but those stray into clandestine consumer crowds which is a whole
other headache.
Whatever you do, don’t look to make a massive profit. Modest margins at low volume are the best you’ll get. Look at a site like Dudadiesel, or
some of the pyro suppliers - they are popular because they have fair prices and useful chems.
It is possible to slip into the market for this kind of stuff but you’ll need to be reasonable to the consumer and sell a useful reagent at a price
that no other seller can beat. Good luck
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Texium
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I agree with dettoo. It's hard to imagine who would buy WFNA for $3000 per liter from you. | Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | The goal is to make enough money to start a free electron laser project and see if I can create anti matter in a controlled manner and sell it, we are
not going to be able to build star ships until we harness anti-matter, its just that simple. |
Huh?
I'm not following anymore. Just creating antimatter is already a far-fetched proposition for anyone without a budget the size of a small country's
GDP. Storing it and selling it? That's firmly in the realm of science fiction with our current technology. I'm not sure how seriously to take you if
you think this is something you could actually do.
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akmetal
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Cool I might just try selling my buisnes card on ebay (since its not the actual product) in order to drive buisness to my site.
When first starting you have use a well-known platform. My wife is also good at this and will be using linkedin premium to network.
Just to be clear I am not creating a charity, I'm not interested in selling low-value products that I have to produce gallons and gallons of, I am
interested in creating products that certain consumers have a difficult time getting and then drive prices up.
If worse comes to worse and I cant sell the WFNA it will give me a source to produce high explosives with an ATF permit to do army R&D on emp
grenades and then see if I can get something working to get a govt contract. Again im here to make $$$$$$ not try to toil making 55 gal drums of
low-value product which is equally dangerous as the rest for no money.
I will check out Dudadiesel and see if it looks good. Thank you, I dont understand these comments, why would you make something thats cheap and
already saturated and then recommend it? These posts are super confusing.
[Edited on 15-12-2023 by akmetal]
[Edited on 16-12-2023 by akmetal]
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akmetal
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| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | I agree with dettoo. It's hard to imagine who would buy WFNA for $3000 per liter from you. | Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | The goal is to make enough money to start a free electron laser project and see if I can create anti matter in a controlled manner and sell it, we are
not going to be able to build star ships until we harness anti-matter, its just that simple. |
Huh?
I'm not following anymore. Just creating antimatter is already a far-fetched proposition for anyone without a budget the size of a small country's
GDP. Storing it and selling it? That's firmly in the realm of science fiction with our current technology. I'm not sure how seriously to take you if
you think this is something you could actually do. |
This is more of a life long persuit that will require I build enough wealth to shed my day job, it is for sure doable.
I mean if you think its impossible or dont want to do it then you wont. Dont put that on other people. The inventors of the side winder missle were
4 guys in a garage, the horton brothers were 2 guys in their parents house.
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akmetal
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50 ml up to almost $400
https://www.thomassci.com/Chemicals/Acids/_/Nitric-acid-fumi...
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pantone159
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The information on that linked page seems kind of inconsistent.
The title does say 'Nitric acid, fuming, 98%' but the product details say:
Formula: C5H9BrZn
Formula weight: 214.41
CAS Number: 171860-68-7
UN Number: UN3399
which are all consistent with cyclopentyl zinc bromide. So I would not assume that is actually a price for nitric acid.
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Jenks
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I see labx.com still exists and has an auction section. Maybe try there.
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Texium
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That doesn’t mean shit. Companies that
buy from big vendors like Sigma, Thermo, Thomas, VWR, etc are going to keep buying from them. Often they’ll have contracts that make the prices
significantly better than what you see on their sites too.
Moreover, prices of reagents don’t necessarily reflect demand. I’ve made plenty of compounds that companies sell for hundreds of dollars per gram.
Doesn’t mean that I should start a business selling them at half the price, because they’re niche things that nobody wants to buy. I might be one
of a handful of people in the world who need those specific compounds. The big companies can make money because they sell such a huge range of
reagents and building blocks that inevitably people will want something that they sell . Specializing in one niche reagent is not a path to
profit. And despite its popularity with amateur energetics enthusiasts, WFNA is actually a pretty niche reagent for lab-scale chemistry. You perceive
it being in high demand due to its high price… but in reality, its high price is due to the expenses incurred in preparing and handling it on the
relatively small scale that it’s needed. Conversely, when an expensive chemical becomes more in-demand, its price often goes DOWN due to economies
of scale.
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akmetal
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| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | That doesn’t mean shit. Companies that
buy from big vendors like Sigma, Thermo, Thomas, VWR, etc are going to keep buying from them. Often they’ll have contracts that make the prices
significantly better than what you see on their sites too.
Moreover, prices of reagents don’t necessarily reflect demand. I’ve made plenty of compounds that companies sell for hundreds of dollars per gram.
Doesn’t mean that I should start a business selling them at half the price, because they’re niche things that nobody wants to buy. I might be one
of a handful of people in the world who need those specific compounds. The big companies can make money because they sell such a huge range of
reagents and building blocks that inevitably people will want something that they sell . Specializing in one niche reagent is not a path to
profit. And despite its popularity with amateur energetics enthusiasts, WFNA is actually a pretty niche reagent for lab-scale chemistry. You perceive
it being in high demand due to its high price… but in reality, its high price is due to the expenses incurred in preparing and handling it on the
relatively small scale that it’s needed. Conversely, when an expensive chemical becomes more in-demand, its price often goes DOWN due to economies
of scale. |
If that the case I will use the reagent to start another business trying to see if I can build emp grenades and try to secure a govt contract. At the
end of the day im not interested in making peanuts.
Also with all of the conflicts going on world wide they are depleting alot of munitions so this will become a key chemical if it isent already.
This isent like making azeobezeobutelronitrile lol.
Also is it possible to make WFNA at high concentrations at scale? From what I read the reactions become problematic the larger you make the
distillation apparatus due to heating issues. The molecular sieve is also difficult to acquire and has to be frequently regenerated with hot dry air
or the water baked out.
Im not here to argue with you man, im just looking for market places I can list it and let the market decide if I have to pivot or not.
[Edited on 16-12-2023 by akmetal]
[Edited on 16-12-2023 by akmetal]
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dettoo456
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Don’t take this the wrong way; do some amateur chemistry or just chemistry in general before you try to start a chemical business.
We cannot help you (regardless if you even want some anon amateurs’ help) if you don’t know what you are talking about.
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Texium
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| Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | Im not here to argue with you man, im just looking for market places I can list it and let the market decide if I have to pivot or not.
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Not trying to argue with you either. I’m just sharing my perspective as someone who has purchased
chemicals for my home lab as well as for an institutional research lab. You can take it or leave it, I don’t care either way.
As far as a platform to sell on, I think fx-991ex had the best suggestion with making your own site.
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akmetal
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| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | | Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | Im not here to argue with you man, im just looking for market places I can list it and let the market decide if I have to pivot or not.
|
Not trying to argue with you either. I’m just sharing my perspective as someone who has purchased
chemicals for my home lab as well as for an institutional research lab. You can take it or leave it, I don’t care either way.
As far as a platform to sell on, I think fx-991ex had the best suggestion with making your own site. |
I am building my own site but when you first start up you have to have a way to drive buisness /traffic to your site. I found a couple just searching
online, got lucky with my google key words this last round
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Raid
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| Quote: Originally posted by Texium | | Quote: Originally posted by akmetal | | Quote: Originally posted by Raid | | Unless you have a license and a registered lab then there a not many legal places to sell hazmat materials. |
I am a registered professional engineer in chemical and electrical. Is this in reference to the USA? I did extensive research of the FARs and never
seen anything requiring the lab itself needing to be registered.
The regulations came into play with DOT and Hazmat. |
As a general rule, take what Raid says with a grain of
salt. He often makes very confident sounding statements without actually knowing what he’s talking about. It sounds like you actually read up and
understand the regulations. Raid is making assumptions based on big companies (Sigma et al) that refuse to sell to individuals. There isn’t a law
against selling to individuals. They simply stand to profit the most from selling to companies and research institutions, and the minuscule profits
they’d make from selling to individuals would not be worth the associated risk of those chemicals being misused, bringing them a PR headache and
possibly lawsuits.
That being said, there is the real possibility that someone could sue you because a customer misused a chemical that you legally sold to them (since
people can seemingly sue anyone for any reason in this country). Even though it is legal, you could still be accused of negligence. I am not a lawyer
though, and I would suggest you consult one for advice on how to avoid that. |
Believe it or not Texium I actually did some research on this subject and that was some of the info I found by just looking and google and some other
government websites. I get what your saying about how I sometimes don't know what I'm talking about but I generally try to do at least a bit of
research before posting something. I'm still new to chemistry so bear with me.
Also as a small side note your website is still vulnerable to XSS and I've told you guys before but no one seems to care.
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