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OneEyedPyro
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Ammonium nitrate solubility in different fuels.
I recently was messing around with AN and methanol, when heated at a 90/10 ratio I was left with a dense slurry that hardened upon cooling and didn't
seem to separate. I was quite surprised by the brisance for being an AN mix and it's also cap sensitive.
Does anyone know of other liquid fuels that AN is appreciably soluble in? I can't find much info on AN solubility besides with water.
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MineMan
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Very interested in this
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papaya
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That's interesting, I remember posting here about AN/MSM co-melt that is also cap sensitive (after crushing to powder), but I also tried co-melt AN/
plain liquid DMSO and it hardened to a cake - no liquid dripping out that is. Not Really tested for energetic properties unfortunately, since I
thought dmso is quite hygroscopic by itself, but who knows, at least its not volatile like methanol. Btw, how did you test it? Crushed into powder or
just bulk solid ? You may test things like ethylene glycol, Glycerol and other non volatile polyols, I've tested AN/erythritol co-melt as powder and
it is decent.
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OneEyedPyro
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Quote: Originally posted by papaya  | | That's interesting, I remember posting here about AN/MSM co-melt that is also cap sensitive (after crushing to powder), but I also tried co-melt AN/
plain liquid DMSO and it hardened to a cake - no liquid dripping out that is. Not Really tested for energetic properties unfortunately, since I
thought dmso is quite hygroscopic by itself, but who knows, at least its not volatile like methanol. Btw, how did you test it? Crushed into powder or
just bulk solid ? You may test things like ethylene glycol, Glycerol and other non volatile polyols, I've tested AN/erythritol co-melt as powder and
it is decent. |
It was dry, prilled AN slowly added to methanol in a hot water bath, I gently stirred it and kept the methanol as close to boiling as I could during
addition.
I placed 100 grams in the corner of a Ziploc bag on a fairly sturdy piece of steel sheet metal folded over on itself, so about 3.5mm thick overall if
I had to guess, it put a 4.5 inch wide hole in the steel and punched several inches into the soil below it.
Many of the fragments I recovered from the hole were surprisingly small and the two layers had been fused together. For reference ~250 grams of
prilled AN/Al 95/5 only slightly warped that same target.
I'm not too concerned about volatility or hygroscopicity, just solubility.
[Edited on 10-5-2023 by OneEyedPyro]
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papaya
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So 90% AN was soluble in 10% methanol, that's interesting, maybe some kind of melting point depression phenomenon versus dissolution? Still not clear
if solid chunck of it "melt cast" is capable of working. Thanks for sharing anyway, next logical fuel must be glycol, since it is no more than double
methanol
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underground
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Most likely methyl nitrate is produced or some other high explosive nitrates like methyl ammonium nitrate.
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OneEyedPyro
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| Quote: Originally posted by papaya | | So 90% AN was soluble in 10% methanol, that's interesting, maybe some kind of melting point depression phenomenon versus dissolution? Still not clear
if solid chunck of it "melt cast" is capable of working. Thanks for sharing anyway, next logical fuel must be glycol, since it is no more than double
methanol |
It wasn't close to being fully dissolved, more of a thick and dense slurry. The AN prills that didn't dissolve broke down into fine crystals and the
mixture took on a paste like consistency similar to pancake batter.
What do you mean by no more than double?
underground
I don't think that's the case but of all the simple and cheap mixtures I've tried this one is definitely the most powerful I've tried, I'd say almost
close to ANNM territory at a fraction of the cost.
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papaya
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If you look at structural formula of ethylene glycol you can imagine it is two methanos stuck together via c-c bond, but this only is graphical
thing, actual properties might not follow it that well, nevertheless worth trying.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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So one more time. After cooling, the 100g mixture had the consistency of one solid piece? No crushed agglomerates? Protected by a Ziplock bag?
Consistency like a cast? And brizance was similar to ANNM? During boiling, methyl nitrate or ammonium methyl nitrate is almost certainly formed as
Undergroud wrote. Or something else that significantly promotes sensitivity. Or something else that becomes the main explosive instead of AN. If so,
this is a major advance in the field of cast energy materials. In this case, the boiling time, the boiling temperature and the final exact ratio
between AN and methanol will be decisive. Due to the large evaporation during boiling. Very cheap, very powerful and therefore very interesting.
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OneEyedPyro
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| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | | So one more time. After cooling, the 100g mixture had the consistency of one solid piece? No crushed agglomerates? Protected by a Ziplock bag?
Consistency like a cast? And brizance was similar to ANNM? During boiling, methyl nitrate or ammonium methyl nitrate is almost certainly formed as
Undergroud wrote. Or something else that significantly promotes sensitivity. Or something else that becomes the main explosive instead of AN. If so,
this is a major advance in the field of cast energy materials. In this case, the boiling time, the boiling temperature and the final exact ratio
between AN and methanol will be decisive. Due to the large evaporation during boiling. Very cheap, very powerful and therefore very interesting.
|
Yes. I slowly added 90 grams of well dried AN prills to a simmering ~13-15ml of methanol while gently stirring with a rod. This resulted in a dense
but slightly mobile paste which hardened into a solid cake upon cooling with a slight but negligible amount of liquid separating from the solid. I
detonated it with about 1.5g of machine pressed PETN and a bit of SADS in a thin walled steel tube.
I wouldn't say it's on par with ANNM but still very impressive for how simple it is to make and easily stronger any simple AN and fuel mixture I've
tried.
It wasn't something I thought anything of at the time so I didn't bother recording exact times, final weight or density.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Thanks, Eyed Pyro.....
1.5g PETN is small booster, but for cast AN/xy fuel is it incredible small booster. Usually is necessary much bigger (10g) booster for this type
cast materials. And at least 300g main charge. Very interest results. Maybe is time for repeat this attempt. For confirmation results. One attempt,
nothing attempt. 2 attempts, half of truth. 3 attempts whole truth. Kitchen procedure sounds incredible easy.
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EF2000
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| Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro |
Does anyone know of other liquid fuels that AN is appreciably soluble in? I can't find much info on AN solubility besides with water.
|
In military pyrothecnics manual that I found here, there's some info about solubilities at 20C:
ethanol: 3.8 g/100 g
methanol: 17.1 g/100 g
There's also a lot of data in AN's entry on chemister. (not a lot about alcohols, mostly water and acetic acid )
[Edited on 10-5-2023 by EF2000]
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OneEyedPyro
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| Quote: Originally posted by Laboratory of Liptakov | Thanks, Eyed Pyro.....
1.5g PETN is small booster, but for cast AN/xy fuel is it incredible small booster. Usually is necessary much bigger (10g) booster for this type
cast materials. And at least 300g main charge. Very interest results. Maybe is time for repeat this attempt. For confirmation results. One attempt,
nothing attempt. 2 attempts, half of truth. 3 attempts whole truth. Kitchen procedure sounds incredible easy. |
I was unable to replicate the slurry mixture with freshly dried AN and a new bottle of methanol even at an 88/12 ratio. My only guess is that the AN
and or methanol contained a good bit of water. Sorry for the bad info.
It did somewhat begin to resemble what originally occurred with 12% methanol at a simmer under pressure.
I still stand by the rest. Whatever mixture I had was impressively powerful by AN/fuel standards and detonated with a fairly standard power cap.
[Edited on 10-5-2023 by OneEyedPyro]
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MineMan
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You had a little bit of water in it. It makes sense, that’s not a downside. Infact it makes more sense and I wondered it as well. It’s basically a
slurry explosive. The water is needed for it to form the paste. Try again but add 5 percent water then try again with ten percent water. It’s also
important you add 10 percent aluminum powder (as fine as possible) to the mix.
Thanks
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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MineMan said all basic and important. I have not any different or better advice. For next way of research of this interest mixture.
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OneEyedPyro
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| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | You had a little bit of water in it. It makes sense, that’s not a downside. Infact it makes more sense and I wondered it as well. It’s basically a
slurry explosive. The water is needed for it to form the paste. Try again but add 5 percent water then try again with ten percent water. It’s also
important you add 10 percent aluminum powder (as fine as possible) to the mix.
Thanks |
With the addition of 6ml water to 16ml methanol and 90g AN I achieved a similar end result but with far more of a liquid solid separation rather than
a smooth paste. It still hardened up nicely as before with virtually no separation once cooled. Now I just have to test it.
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RogueRose
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Here is some solubility data on AN.. I've dissolved it in methanol before. I think I might try acetone b/c it supposedly has a vairly high
solubility.
I also tried dissolving CAN (calcium AN) in methanol and it was a little difficult & I had to really watch the temp b/c it needed to stay in a
fairly narrow range.
118.3 g/100 cc of H2O at 0 °C, 871 g at 100 °C; 3.8 g/100 cc ethanol at 20 °C; soluble in acetone; 17.1 g/100 cc methanol at 20 °C; soluble in
ammonia; insoluble in ether
Lide, D.R. (ed). CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. 72nd ed. Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press, 1991-1992., p. 4-39
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Alkoholvergiftung
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Aceton doesnt disolve much ammoniumnitrate but Calciumnitrate.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD0673124.pdf
Solubility of nitrates in Aceton
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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In the sense of the established thread, it would be good to focus on researching the mixture of ammonium nitrate - boiled with methanol. And verifying
its unexpected brisance at high (cast) density.
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karolus28
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So i did 3 tests of this today.
First was 45g of garden(34N) AN prills and 5 grams of methanol in a tightly closed jar put on in a hot water bath for 10 minutes. It was shaken from
time to time, no phase separation - turned into a semi-solid slush. Solidified into chunky bits.
Second test was the same but i added 2,5 mls of water and it turned into a mush and solidified into a few larger chunks.
Third was 18g somewhat dried pulverized AN + 2g of methanol and 3 drops of sulfuric acid. Remained powdery the whole time.
I used ~2,5g of meltcast ETN to initiate them, unfortunetly none of them went off.
[Edited on 13-5-2023 by karolus28]
Hi, please read about exif data.
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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Thanks, Karolus for your testing.
It looks like the results from the beginning of this thread are difficult to replicate. Doing 3 tests and consuming 7.5g of ETN is a lot of work.
Thanks for the interesting results....
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OneEyedPyro
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| Quote: Originally posted by karolus28 | So i did 3 tests of this today.
First was 45g of garden(34N) AN prills and 5 grams of methanol in a tightly closed jar put on in a hot water bath for 10 minutes. It was shaken from
time to time, no phase separation - turned into a semi-solid slush. Solidified into chunky bits.
Second test was the same but i added 2,5 mls of water and it turned into a mush and solidified into a few larger chunks.
Third was 18g somewhat dried pulverized AN + 2g of methanol and 3 drops of sulfuric acid. Remained powdery the whole time.
I used ~2,5g of meltcast ETN to initiate them, unfortunetly none of them went off.
[Edited on 13-5-2023 by karolus28] |
I made around 100 grams of an unknown ratio of AN, methanol and water. It did detonate with impressive power. My detonator was a bit larger than
average and was machine pressed PETN at a relatively high density.
I managed to replicate the solid cake aspect but sadly the main charge only scattered with no apparent detonation. Maybe it was a fluke when I got a
full detonation.
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MineMan
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No such thing is a fluke
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Laboratory of Liptakov
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I recommend extending the boiling time to 90 minutes in a closed jar. At 64 Celsius. In a water bath.
AN90 + MeOH 10 + 5 dH2O And try again with 2g HE. Don't underestimate the size of main charge. The charge should be a ball with a central initiation.
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Bert
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| Quote: Originally posted by OneEyedPyro | | Quote: Originally posted by karolus28 | So i did 3 tests of this today.
First was 45g of garden(34N) AN prills and 5 grams of methanol in a tightly closed jar put on in a hot water bath for 10 minutes. It was shaken from
time to time, no phase separation - turned into a semi-solid slush. Solidified into chunky bits.
Second test was the same but i added 2,5 mls of water and it turned into a mush and solidified into a few larger chunks.
Third was 18g somewhat dried pulverized AN + 2g of methanol and 3 drops of sulfuric acid. Remained powdery the whole time.
I used ~2,5g of meltcast ETN to initiate them, unfortunetly none of them went off.
[Edited on 13-5-2023 by karolus28] |
I made around 100 grams of an unknown ratio of AN, methanol and water. It did detonate with impressive power. My detonator was a bit larger than
average and was machine pressed PETN at a relatively high density.
I managed to replicate the solid cake aspect but sadly the main charge only scattered with no apparent detonation. Maybe it was a fluke when I got a
full detonation. |
Please consider the source of the ammonium nitrate in attempts to recreate first incident- "garden (34N)?
Most AN sold as fertilizer in the West/Europe and much of the rest of the world has been phlegmatized by addition of such things as fly ash, Calcium
carbonate and PVA "glue". This has been done specifically to PREVENT easy use in improvised explosives. Were the 2nd and later attempts made with the
SAME BATCH OF AN the first (surprisingly brissant explosion) test was made with?
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