metalresearcher
National Hazard
Posts: 758
Registered: 7-9-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Reactive
|
|
Border between inorganic and organic chemistry ?
The largest online chemistry textbook states that organic is:
| Quote: |
The range of chemicals studied in organic chemistry includes hydrocarbons (compounds containing only carbon and hydrogen) as well as compounds based
on carbon, but also containing other elements, especially oxygen, nitrogen, sulfur, phosphorus (included in many biochemicals) and the halogens.
|
So CO, CO2 and water are clearly inorganic as the first two don't contain hydrogen and water does not contain carbon.
But what about H2CO3 which can also be described as COOH.OH.
And soaps (sodium salts of fattic acids) ?
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
There is no clear distinction.
If you have a carbon-carbon bond it is almost always classes as organic.
The same goes for a carbon-hydrogen bond.
But it's messy.
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
Just to demonstrate how ill-defined the distinction between organic and inorganic is, the following:
- Experiments with acetato-complexes of transition metals. I have played around with quite a few acetato-complexes (such as the nice red iron(III)
complex, the green/blue copper(II) complex). I consider this inorganic chemistry, but acetic acid is considered an organic acid.
- Making tin(IV) iodide in a solution of dichloromethane. Here, I use a solvent, which is considered organic (actually, it also works with CHCl3 and
also with CS2), but the reaction is considered inorganic. And is CS2 an organic solvent or an inorganic solvent?
These two examples show that the classification is not hard, there is a certain grey area.
|
|
|
Herr Haber
International Hazard
Posts: 1236
Registered: 29-1-2016
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The distinction is clear. I just dont like it from time to time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_compound
"For historical reasons discussed , a few types of carbon-containing compounds, such as carbides, carbonates (excluding carbonate esters), simple
oxides of carbon (for example, CO and CO2), and cyanides are considered inorganic. Different forms (allotropes) of pure carbon, such as diamond,
graphite, fullerenes, and carbon nanotubes[4] are also excluded because they are simple substances composed of only a single element and therefore are
not generally considered to be chemical compounds."
The same definition appears almost word for word in a EU Directive from 1999. If the law says so...
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
|
|
|
Oxy
Hazard to Others
Posts: 140
Registered: 1-12-2020
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: |
The range of chemicals studied in organic chemistry includes hydrocarbons
So CO, [...] are clearly inorganic as the first two don't contain hydrogen and water does not contain carbon |
The border is very delicate.
CO can be considered as formic acid anhydride, HCN can be considered as the first of nitrile homologue chain - nitrile of formic acid.
[Edited on 6-9-2021 by Oxy]
|
|
|
Fulmen
International Hazard
Posts: 1725
Registered: 24-9-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bored
|
|
It's not delicate, it's arbitrary. The only real answer is that it depends on the definition.
We're not banging rocks together here. We know how to put a man back together.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4356
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
And it's arbitrary because nature does not create categories- we categorize things.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
Does it really matter? Cyanide and azide ions are inorganic, but they exist as organic functional groups, and definitely interact with organic
molecules. CO2 is inorganic, but most of the time it is created by organic reactions. Organic chemistry (almost) couldn't exist without inorganic
chemistry. Chemistry is chemistry and while doing organic, you will see inorganic, and when doing inorganic you will miss a lot when you refuse to
look at anything organic.
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5128
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What about carbon suboxide and mellitic anhydride?
The last one looks a lot like a benzene derivative.
Or this stuff?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexahydroxybenzene_trisoxalate
Looks pretty organic to me.
On the other hand, things with no carbon hydrogen bond and no carbon carbon bond are often considered inorganic, but urea- which has neither- is
arguably the "prototype" organic compound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%B6hler_synthesis
No.
[Edited on 6-9-21 by unionised]
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4356
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
They have carbon-carbon bonds, so I put them in the organic category.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
But then what about graphite and diamond? Or does the fact it has oxygen matter?
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4356
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
They're not organic compounds, because they aren't compounds.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
They are compounds because they have a single molecular structure. Otherwise polyethylene also wouldn't be a compound.
But okay, graphene then?
[Edited on 6-9-2021 by Tsjerk]
|
|
|
CharlieA
National Hazard
Posts: 646
Registered: 11-8-2015
Location: Missouri, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
So hydrogen gas is a compound because it has a single molecular structure? It seems to me that this thread has devolved into splitting hairs. Whether
inorganic or organic, it is all chemistry. The division of compounds into inorganic or organic is a centuries-old classification developed when the
theory was that organic compounds were only produced by living organisms. Woehler's synthesis of urea (an organic compound) from ammonium cyanate (an
inorganic compound) proved that theory to be wrong.
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
Exactly, it doesn't really matter.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4356
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Tsjerk  | They are compounds because they have a single molecular structure. Otherwise polyethylene also wouldn't be a compound.
But okay, graphene then?
[Edited on 6-9-2021 by Tsjerk] |
No, diamond and graphite aren't compounds- they are form of the element. They only contain one kind of atom.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Texium
Administrator
Posts: 4618
Registered: 11-1-2014
Location: Salt Lake City
Member Is Offline
Mood: PhD candidate!
|
|
We may not be able to agree where to draw a line between organic and inorganic compounds, but I think the line between organic and inorganic
chemistry is a little more clear. Exchange of ligands around a metal? Inorganic, even if organic ligands are involved, because you're
manipulating what is coordinated to the metal, and not making or breaking bonds within the organic molecules involved. Running a clearly inorganic
reaction in an organic solvent that doesn't participate (e.g. woelen's tin(IV) iodide example, or when I made phosphorus tribromide in chloroform)?
Also inorganic. Running an organic reaction that requires an inorganic acid or base, such as making or cleaving an ester? Organic.
The example that unionised posted about hexahydroxybenzene trisoxalate is an interesting example. While there can be disagreement over whether the
product should be considered organic or inorganic, the chemistry used to make it is comfortably in the realm of organic chemistry, because they
produce it from hexahydroxybenzene and oxalyl chloride. Nobody would categorize that reaction as inorganic chemistry.
Something that really gets into the gray area is when you have an organic reaction that requires catalysis by a transition metal, because then you
have ligand exchange and metal redox happening simultaneously with the organic reaction. But that's why we have a third category: organometallic. 
[Edited on 9-7-2021 by Texium]
|
|
|
woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 8027
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: interested
|
|
That is one possible definition (e.g. the one on Wikipedia), but I have seen others. Even the noble gases sometimes are considered
compounds. They are made of molecules, each consisting of a single atom.
Another definition I have seen:
-----------------------------------
- Elements are the type of atoms. Only appr. 80 elements exist in Nature (not regarding isotopes).
- Compounds are physical substances, made from these elements. Pure metals also are considered compounds, having metal bonds, but they only contain a
single element. Noble gases are considered molecular compounds, consisting of very simple molecules, which only contain one atom. Different allotropes
of elements are considered different compounds. E.g. O2 and O3 are different compounds.
But it does not really matter how the word 'compound' is defined. What does matter is that you have an understanding of type of bonds, structure of
substances, etc.
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6334
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by woelen | That is one possible definition (e.g. the one on Wikipedia), but I have seen others. Even the noble gases sometimes are considered
compounds. They are made of molecules, each consisting of a single atom.
Another definition I have seen:
-----------------------------------
- Elements are the type of atoms. Only appr. 80 elements exist in Nature (not regarding isotopes).
- Compounds are physical substances, made from these elements. Pure metals also are considered compounds, having metal bonds, but they only contain a
single element. Noble gases are considered molecular compounds, consisting of very simple molecules, which only contain one atom. Different allotropes
of elements are considered different compounds. E.g. O2 and O3 are different compounds.
But it does not really matter how the word 'compound' is defined. What does matter is that you have an understanding of type of bonds, structure of
substances, etc. |
I really like that definition. That approach makes so much sense.
Problem is that my students will fail if I teach them that.
(It's like the triangle of power for exponents, powers, and logarithms.)
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4356
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by woelen |
- Compounds are physical substances, made from these elements. Pure metals also are considered compounds, having metal bonds, but they only contain a
single element. Noble gases are considered molecular compounds, consisting of very simple molecules, which only contain one atom. Different allotropes
of elements are considered different compounds. E.g. O2 and O3 are different compounds. |
I can't imagine any actual chemist declaring a single atom to be a molecule, or a single element to be a compound. Not one with a first language of
English anyway.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
chemister2015
Harmless
Posts: 31
Registered: 25-2-2015
Location: Russia, Khabarovsk
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I have created 14 rules for my database for dividing substances into organic, inorganic and elementoorganic.
[Edited on 7-9-2021 by chemister2015]
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid |
I can't imagine any actual chemist declaring a single atom to be a molecule, or a single element to be a compound. Not one with a first language of
English anyway. |
All chemistry is, is a bunch of electron clouds interacting. Those electron clouds and the bonds they form really don't care whether what they are
holding together are atoms, molecules or complete visible by light miscroscopy multiprotein bodies like ribosomes for example.
When an element reacts chemically it does so exactly like a compound composed of more than one element, so why not just call it a compound? When it
looks like a compound, acts like a compound, it must be a compound right?
Calling helium a molecule might sound strange, but when it reacts the rules it follows are exactly like those for any other molecule.
If you need classifications to understand how things work that is fine, but you really don't have to. And you really don't need English as a first
language to grasp a concept.
|
|
|
macckone
Dispenser of practical lab wisdom
Posts: 2168
Registered: 1-3-2013
Location: Over a mile high
Member Is Offline
Mood: Electrical
|
|
I use this definition, If the chemistry is manipulating carbon-carbon bonds then it is clearly organic (pure carbon compounds not really manipulating
the bonds), if the chemistry does not involve bonds with carbon then it is clearly inorganic. So if you are making a metal acetate, no carbon bonds
are effected, it is inorganic.
The edge cases then resolve to non-carbon-carbon bonds which usually are organic.
Exceptions would be things like burning carbon in whatever form or combining carbon monoxide with nickel.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
