Triflic Acid
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What kind of gas mask should I buy for chlorine/SCl2
I'm looking for a gas mask that I can use against chlorine and NO2. I use solvents, but I have a hood so that isn't a problem. When I do SCl2/Cl2
experiments in the hood, the smell still gets out. Also, dealing with stuff like SCl2 outside of the hood, like for bottling or small reactions, is a
pain. I'm writing this post in the garage next to my hood in which the reaction is happening. No smell yet, but I'm sure that'll change within the
hour. Getting back to the point, what kind of gas mask should I get? I don't want to go for a surplus military gas mask.
There wasn't a fire, we just had an uncontrolled rapid oxidation event at the power plant.
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njl
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There are too many variables to give a specific recommendation. The respirator by itself should be full face and resistant to acid fumes (industry
term for corrosive gasses e.g. Cl2, HCl, HF, SO3/SO2). The cartridge will also have to be rated specifically for chemical use, again for acid fumes. A
cartridge meant for blocking particulate is NOT adequate. I have some experience with 3M products so I personally would go in that direction. If 3M
works for you, an olive cartridge looks most suitable for your purposes.
This equipment doesn't come cheap though. Before making that investment try modifying your existing setup (seal joints, seal the outlet of your hood,
shrink the inlet area to increase the velocity of incoming air).
Reflux condenser?? I barely know her!
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j_sum1
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See what you can do with traps too.
If you can avoid expelling gas in the first place then the problem is largely solved.
With controlled production first, trap second, hood third, mask fourth, the ppe is the last line of defense; which is as it should be.
Actually, running shoes are probably the last line of defense.
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zed
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At some combination of Hood window height opening vs room Door and window openings, and unfavorable prevailing winds... Every hood fails.
You are working with bad stuff. You have to figure out how to trap and neutralize those noxious gases, before they get loose.
As for masks, the greatest protection is provided by a full-face SCBA, or a system utilizing outside air under positive pressure. SCBA is what
firefighters use. Comes with a compressed air tank. Since one deep breath of CO can knock 'em out, they can't afford to take chances.
For, non-SCBA systems. I recommend Full face mask, positive pressure, forced air. I like MSA. Either the Ultraview or the Ultra Elite, adapted to
use NATO 40MM Cartridges. The cartridges are universally available, and inexpensive if you shop around.
Israeli gas masks are pretty good, plus they are inexpensive. Israeli 40MM cartridges, are as good as anything out there. Cartridges are mortal.
They come sealed. Seal them up again, when not in use, so they will last a while.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p23800...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MSA-firehawk-Scba-With-Mask-And-Val...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Israeli-Gas-Mask-Filter-M80-Nato-Si...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Israeli-Gas-Mask-Hood-Kit-NBC-prote...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Israeli-Gas-Mask-Hood-Kit-NBC-prote...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Israeli-Gas-Mask-NBC-protection-wit...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2U4cCSY1ujY
The same kinds of units that provide optimum protection from COVID 19, work very well in the lab.
But, you can't use the same types of cartridges.
In COVID environments.... HEPA filters are protection enough, and they last a very long time. They are just particulate filters.
In War, or a Lab environment... HEPA filters won't cut it. You need protection from noxious chemicals and gases. And THAT, is going to cost you!
Remote air supply is also very nice. And, cartridges aren't required. Just build a system that supplies clean, slightly pressurized outside air,
directly to your mask.
Bingo! You are pretty much bullet-proof.
The constant positive pressure, protects you from suck back, around the edges of your mask, when you inhale.
A long tube plus a $20.00 blower, will pretty much do the job.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p23345...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-MSA-Oxygen-Breathing-facepiece-...
Oh yeah! Stay away from Russian and Eastern Block gear, unless you live there and trust the stuff. It is purported that the equipment isn't actually
NATO compatible, and it is certain that there are sometimes quality issues.
Oh yeah. If you are in Europe, you may have more limited options. Willson used to be a top American Respirator supplier, merged with Sperian, and
Maybe Honeywell, and you don't hear the name anymore. They are involved with with a decent quality surplus mask, that is NATO. My favorite Gas mask
guy, gives it a review. It is availble on Ebay for about $55.00 American, might be less over there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d6j6ClCirg
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Modern-gas-mask-Fernez-Willson-Sper...
Use the Israeli cartridges.
[Edited on 4-4-2021 by zed]
[Edited on 4-4-2021 by zed]
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draculic acid69
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Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1  | See what you can do with traps too.
If you can avoid expelling gas in the first place then the problem is largely solved.
With controlled production first, trap second, hood third, mask fourth, the ppe is the last line of defense; which is as it should be.
Actually, running shoes are probably the last line of defense. |
If it gets to the point of needing running shoes your well and truly screwed.
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unionised
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You don't only need a mask; you need a hood which actually works.
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Fyndium
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I use a full face respirator mask designed for chemical industry with ABEK P3 filter. It has served well against every chemical and particulate threat
so far. The mask costs 100-150€ and filters cost 30€ apiece and I've renewed them once in a year just so I can trust them 100%, and never run them
to actual failure. The off-time I store the filter cartridge in an airtight ziploc bag so it doesn't absorb anything from the surrounding air.
The military surplus equipment is designated for specific uses of threats, and may also have differences in useful shelf life. The cold war era stuff
is only useful as a decoration, never ever use them against any real threat, unless you wake up in an apocalypse and it's all you've got and going
without assures certain succumbing. If you get heads up, buy a new one, period.
Fume hood keeps all smells and hazards in when you have high enough negative pressure. Your extraction fan is not powerful enough in that instance.
Sometimes limiting the frontal opening can be very effective, and if you wanna go really hardcore, you can turn your fume hood into a glovebox. The
long, 1000mm sleeved gloves are surprisingly cheap and you can easily mount them by making rings from plastic or plywood and tightening the ends with
them to the box.
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j_sum1
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My first significant encounter with Cl2 was accidental. From memory, my reaction had the ability to generate about 0.1 moles and it was evolving from
the flask at quite a rate. Lab evacuation was entirely appropriate and sensible under the circumstances. I returned several hours later to clean up
the mess. I was not screwed.
More recently, I was putting something away in my lab. So, not dressed for the occasion. I knocked my bromine container which cracked one of the
ampoules. About 20g of bromine was potentially liberated although most was contained within the ampoule and also by the thiosulfate in the outer
container. I was still greeted with a significant cloud of vapour and there was some minor skin contact. Evacuation and shower was appropriate. Again,
I was not screwed.
I have not yet built my fume hood. And I don't have a gas mask. But I have worked with chlorine reasonably regularly. Controlled production using an
addition funnel is vital. Good sealing glassware is also vital. Good traps are vital.
Last time I did it, I never even smelled any chlorine: not even in clean up. It is certainly possible to work safely with small amounts of the gas
without getting stressed about it. Good planning is required. There are multiple layers of safety strategies possible. And keeping a clear evacuation
route is certainly one of those.
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Fyndium
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I have come to a conclusion that you can work with almost anything when you have proper environment, containment and equipment without ever smelling
or seeing anything.
I routinely flush apparatuses from smelly or toxic gases by putting the exhaust tube to the ventilation duct and opening a stopper from the other end
of the apparatus and letting it vent for a while. The small pressure difference is enough to clear out all gases very quickly.
Biggest threat is breakage of glassware or some form of runaway reaction, which causes large amount of hazardous material to be released in open
space, and it can be very hazardous even when in proper fume hood, because it can destroy equipment and cause further danger by igniting upon contact
with hot/electric parts, or reacting with something and causing secondary reactions releasing hot, toxic or flammable fumes. At least, it can cause
significant property damage even if fully contained.
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Triflic Acid
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Well moreover the problem with my hood is the sash height. Its a window sitting on pegs, so there really aren't that many height settings. Also, Cl2
and SCl2 have really low odor thresholds.
There wasn't a fire, we just had an uncontrolled rapid oxidation event at the power plant.
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Fyndium
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In most acute case you can increase flow by just wrapping some plastic wrap in critical places. The smaller the gap, the bigger the flow ratio -
presuming the extraction is efficient.
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zed
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I did most of my chemistry at a very state-of-the-art, college facility.
When doors to the outside were opened, which was often... The hood ventilation failed.
When I would hear someone's hand on the outside door, I would lower the window, and make a quick exit.
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Fyndium
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That indicates the complex has more negative pressure than the lab and even your fume hood.
I wonder how strong ventilation they use, if it can overrun a proper fume hood.
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Monoamine
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A military grade gas mask will do the trick. If you can find one with NATO filters then you're pretty much covered for all eventualities.
If you're looking to buy something on a budget, then an army surplus retailer can probably sell you one for a decent price.
For some things I use one even if I'm working in a fume hood.
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unionised
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| Quote: Originally posted by draculic acid69 | | Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 | See what you can do with traps too.
If you can avoid expelling gas in the first place then the problem is largely solved.
With controlled production first, trap second, hood third, mask fourth, the ppe is the last line of defense; which is as it should be.
Actually, running shoes are probably the last line of defense. |
If it gets to the point of needing running shoes your well and truly screwed.
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If you need a gas mask you well and truly screwed up.
PPE is the last line of defence (well there are three more- running shoes, hospitals and priests- but it's the last competent line of defense).
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macckone
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a good scrubber and a mild vacuum on your setup, will cover up a multitude of sins.
2" of H2O after the scrubber pressure is usually sufficient.
That should stop any leaks and draw everything through the scrubber.
Sodium hydroxide solution should be a good scrubbing solution for Cl2 and S2Cl2.
You could still get some off-gas but that should slow down the rate considerably.
If you use an aspirator pump to create the mild vacuum, you can place it well away from your work area for venting.
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Oxy
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I wonder why people are so enthusiastic to military gear.
It's not the best to be honest, especially used sold as used.
Industrial masks are also very good, they can be bought also cheap and allows to buy various types of filters.
"NATO filters" will not protect of everything. For example in my country the most popular filter doesn't protect of ammonia and amines.
[Edited on 9-8-2021 by Oxy]
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Fyndium
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Military gear is designed to protect military threats, like tear gas and nerve agents. Most common basic packing is activated carbon bed filter.
Second to that, military gear sold to civilians is usually surplus, that is discarded due to expiration. Older filters are just plain crap, and can be
used only as a prop. Never use these for really nasty stuff unless they are supplied in original sealed packing, designated for such threats and have
expiration time left.
Just get an ABEK filter. It is rated for chemical industry applications, wide range. 30€ is cheap price for this sort of stuff. To extend the life
of your filter when not in use, seal it in ziploc bag which will greatly reduce the absorption of impurities and moisture from atmosphere. I have used
my expired ABEK-P3 filters for metal, wood and stoneworking, cleaning and other contagious environments like emptying outhouse at my hunting cabin.
They have first class particle and odor removal properties even after the specific chemical filtering capabilities have greatly diminished. Finally, a
good indicator for discarding is the pervading smell of shit. 
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HydrogenSulphate
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| Quote: Originally posted by macckone | a good scrubber and a mild vacuum on your setup, will cover up a multitude of sins.
2" of H2O after the scrubber pressure is usually sufficient.
That should stop any leaks and draw everything through the scrubber.
Sodium hydroxide solution should be a good scrubbing solution for Cl2 and S2Cl2.
You could still get some off-gas but that should slow down the rate considerably.
If you use an aspirator pump to create the mild vacuum, you can place it well away from your work area for venting. |
Also, maybe a sodium thiosulphate-based scrubber (for the Cl2)
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by Oxy | I wonder why people are so enthusiastic to military gear.
It's not the best to be honest, especially used sold as used.
[Edited on 9-8-2021 by Oxy] |
Designs are slightly different.
I own a civilian Draeger mask that has a military equivalent.
On the military one, the metal parts are made of plastic.
Seing how metal reacts to gases such as chlorine I assumed that was done on purpose.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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