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oneup
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I also don't do this anymore, the only thing I've ever 'borrowed' from school was potassium chlorate, but that was before I knew that it could be made
by electrolysis of NaCl, so now I do it myself. I can also get almost every chemical I want, I often read about people having trouble getting
ammonium nitrate and removing it from expensive instant cold packs, I can still buy 5Kg 70% ammonium nitrate for €5,50 wich is easy to purify as the
impurity is some kind of brown shit that's insoluble. (off topic: can ANFO be made from 70% AN without purification? and do I need to crush the prills
first?)
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The_Davster
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I figure this is the best thread here for this....not 100% sure though.
In short, I was applying for a summer research position at my uni, and it required a resume. I decided to include that I did chemistry as a hobby at
home. I made sure to say that I mostly did inorganic chemistry though as that would (hopefully) dissuade unfounded drug/explosive fears. According
to proffs at my uni, my chances were rather slim for getting the research scholarship. Anyway, today I got the letter that I got the scholarship  I believe
it was because of my talk of hobby chemistry as well as a glowing referance letter from a teacher who knew me, and my home experimenting, and included
talk of it in the letter.
The scholarship is from the gov...wonder what big brother is thinking
Im in a real good mood because of this....
I get to use caesium metal this summer
[Edited on 10-3-2006 by rogue chemist]
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Magpie
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Congratulations Rogue on landing that scholarship! That tooks some balls to list your home experimenting on your resume.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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woelen
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Congratulations, this is good news  . Good to read that doing home-chemistry
sometimes helps. So, we sometimes also hear good news about home-science, not only the bad things about drugs, terrorism and so on.
Probably the people who had to judge all applications have a real good feeling for what drives scientists. Probably they think that someone, doing
things at home must be a really interested person, who is willing to dive deep into research problems.
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The_Davster
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Minor update: I think I will be using cesium azide, not cesium. At the temps I will be using it will decompose into cesium and nitrogen, so I guess
that simplifies things by not handling ceasium metal. I saw a 1kg(?...might not be 1 kg, but the bottle was huge...) bottle of cesium azide (HOLY
 ) on his shelf and only a little cesium metal.
EDIT: They must go through CsN3 fast, I saw an empty bottle of equall size in the used bottle bucket....
[Edited on 26-4-2006 by rogue chemist]
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enhzflep
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Ah ha, ha. Man this thread is killing me. All those fond memories...
Back when i was about 12 or 13, dad pulled me aside one day and said "I probably shouldn't be showing you this, and don't tell your mother" Then
proceeded to take out an ordinary safety match, place it on an anvil and hit it with a hammer. Bang!
My little brain lit up like a carnival.
Wow! The possibilities were endless. Firecrackers i immediately thought. It wasn't long before i was cutting the red stuff off matches like there was
no tommorow. Making fuses with them, crackers with them and shortly there-after rockets (well helicopter rockets) for some strange reason i kept all
of the skun matches and in a year or 2 had some 30,000 of them
After many trips to the local shooting range it suddenly occured to me that i could use .22 shells as excellent cracker bodies. Ram some powder in,
insert fuse and close. Worked fine until i decided to hit the stuff in, and not just ram. BOOM - blood everywhere and 3 pieces of shell stuck in me i
had to pull out with pliers. he he he. (Was just pissed off that mum cleaned the blood off the walls in my bedroom before i could look at the spray
pattern. Hell - what difference was 5mins gunna make mum?)
That soon got boring, so in around year 8 decided to make a cannon. Only a pissy little thing 4.5mm bore, but wait for it - 40cm long (several pieces
drilled in a lathe from each end with a standard drill, before being threaded at each end.) I even took it to Saturday sport(compulsory at the school)
and showed it off to all my mates. Hey, i was young and i couldn't have them thinking i was full-of-shit now could i?
Well eventually got the powder-load up to 0.7gm chlorate-powder, followed by 0.7gm chlorate powder mixed with 0.7gm ground sparklers (About 2inches of
rammed powder in the barrel or about 2.1gms pushing a 4.5mm slug )
Dad knew what i was doing the whole time - hey he even helped me select the correct dies to cut the thread and gave me rudimentary training in how to
use his lathe.
Best i ever did with it was get that slug through 2 white-pages. Or about 12cm of solid paper. he he he.
Oh, i nearly forgot to mention that M&D would watch through the lounge-room window as i fired this thing, time and time again.
All the while keeping virtually everybody that knew me at school completely informed.
I was of the frame of mind at the time that knowing what i was capable of doing to them if they told the wrong people minimized the risk of them doing
so. Completely the wrong attitude, but we were/are all young once.
Anyway, let all the pyro stuff slide for a number of years untill i took up chem and physics for the finall two years of high-scool. Wow! Excellent
theory & chems/materials. Well, i proceeded to borrow pieces of apparatus over the next 2 years, culminating in a physics assignment that had us
design our own prac. Well, this was perfect thought my little brain. They've got digital scales capable of measuring down to 1/10,000th of a gram.
Cool - i'm gunna do an experiment that measures thrust of a solid-fuel rocket motor based on the nozzle geometry. Submitted my idea and had it
approved. Woo-Hoo.
So the fatefull day came along and i decided to test the one with the smaller nozzle first(greater thrust), Placed motor upside down on the $5,000
scales and lit the fuse. BOOOM Holy shit there was smoke everywhere and the 25 kids in the class were _all_ shitting themselves. Oop sorry.  . But "don't worry" i told everybody the next one is a low-thrust version, so there's
no-way it'll blow too. Boy was i wrong. Think i ended up doing that assignment
on wave theory and diffraction grates.
But anyway - everybody that knew of me knew what sort of stuff i got up to. I made it absolutely clear i had no
intention of hurting anybody at all, but that if i did it would most definitely be me first.
Hmm, hardly much chemsitry in those years - but all that fun was still ahead of me through my University days and time thereafter.
(still LOL'ing)
[Edited on 27-4-2006 by enhzflep]
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Zinc
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I have told my chem. teacher of my hobby. Fortunatley she supports me. She gave me and my friend who is also interested in chemistry potassium
chlorate,potassium permanganate,magnesium powder and ribbon,aluminum powder,bromine,potassium dichromate,potassium bromate,potassium
nitrate,tetrachloromethane and even benzene. She also promissed us to give each of us one gass mask.
We also 'borrowed' some chemicals from school.
P.S. I now just have to distill HNO3 and then I can make nitrobenzene (useful) and dinitrobenzene(holy)
[Edited on 29-6-2006 by Zinc]
[Edited on 29-6-2006 by Zinc]
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Zinc
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Zinc
She also promissed us to give each of us one gass mask.
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Today we got them.
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UniversalSolvent
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| Quote: | Originally posted by trinitrotoluene
If you did had anyone of you gotten a response like "drug lab" or "blowing things up?". |
Just last night, in fact. I was discussing synthesis of NI3 with a non-chemist friend and how I was preparing to extract iodine for the reaction from
KI through subliming iodine out and then allowing crystals to form. A friend of mine, listening to my conversation, turns to her other group of
friends and goes "That guy runs a drug lab in his basement."
What the hell?
Not only is NI3 not a drug, I'm the type of person whose chemistry interests are about as far flung from drug production as you get. It's ignorant
assumptions like these that give our hobby a bad name.
[Edited on 26-8-2006 by UniversalSolvent]
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mrjeffy321
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I have a very important writing assignment coming up, a persuasive essay in which we have essentially the freedom to write over any topic we please
and argue almost any point. I figure as long as I am going to have to devote so much time into doing this, it might as well be for something I care
about, so I thought about writing about home experimentation and/or the difficulties there are due to the legal restrictions and the stigma which is
attached to individuals who pursue such activities.
Whatever I choose, I don’t just need ‘good’ sources for the paper; I need ‘EXCELLENT’ sources, the best there are to defend my position. Do
you all think there are such sources out there? Of course it is hard to say at this point as I have not done much in-depth searching yet, but I would
think a lot of the stuff I could find which would support my position would be non-authoritative internet sites/forums with the opinions of people who
really don’t matter. Government statistics would be good, but of course if the government is going to go to the trouble of putting out a statistic
it will likely in the opposite direction which I want my paper to lean. Well known scientists would be good too, or at least people who have the
credentials to back up their opinion…but I also cant see too many of these people being very active in their opposition to a system which they
already have over come with their education and experience (how much do they care about the teenaged kid in their backyard.
So, in you-all’s opinion, is the idea worth pursuing? Is there the information out there to make a good case?
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The_Davster
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I'd go with it, no matter the sources, but the Society for amateur scientists, and the wired article make good starting points.
If you look up the old discoveries of many things, most of them till the mid 1900s were done in home labs. Hell the current aluminum process was
discovered in Hall's backyard as a university student(IIRC he wanted to show up a professor ). Problem is, it was so common back then that no mention of where the discovery took place was made. Not untill around edison's time
did commercial research move from home labs to corporate labs.
Many old books for university students studying chemistry were explicitly stated that they were meant to be done at home. Slight more recent ones
(50s?) have students taking a reaction home to sit on the windowsill a give a shake on occasion. That happen these days? Fuck no....I made sillyputty
in a lab at uni...the precautions for working with the nasty Si(CH3)2Cl2 were size 12 font in caps. The DO NOT REMOVE ANY PRODUCT FROM THE LAB was
twice as big, and bolded, and repeated twice thereafter.
Wait....I think I am off topic and rambling now...but most was semi-relavent I think.
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Waffles
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The essays on Mr. Theodore Gray's site would be perfect for you I think. You could also email him, and I'm sure he'd be able to provide you a
professional-sounding quote or two, he's one of the real 'good guys' to our cause.
\"…\'tis man\'s perdition to be safe, when for the truth he ought to die.\"
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Magpie
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As already stated many of the early chemists made their discoveries at home. IIRC Priestley and Lavosier would be among them. The biography of
Alfred Nobel, of which I happen to have a copy, would be an excellent source.
In modern times we have Apple Computer and Hewlett-Packard both having started in garages.
I think there is a lot of "good" sources out there. It may take some time to find them. I agree that somebody's opinion on the internet isn't worth
much.
I think this is a good project. Please let us know how it turns out.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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mrjeffy321
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| Quote: |
the precautions for working with the nasty Si(CH3)2Cl2 were size 12 font in caps. The DO NOT REMOVE ANY PRODUCT FROM THE LAB was twice as big, and
bolded, and repeated twice thereafter.
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And of course instructors must always remind the students not to eat any of the chemicals. Of course, as silly and idiotic as it sounds, there is
actually reason why they say not to eat the stuff…because people do, I witnessed it with my own eyes….we were doing a lab in class using a fine
CuSO4 * 5H2O powder and a girl said, “it sure does look like pixie [stick] dust, I bet it is”, and then proceeded to lick her finger and taste it!
She quickly learned it was not candy and had to go get a drink very immediately.
I agree, the Wired magazine article from back in June would be good to use, or at least reference for other ideas. I think I remember the article
referencing well known people who experimented at home when they were younger, plus the other examples suggested (Aluminum refining, …), even Apple
Computers would be good even though it doesn’t directly tie in with ‘science’ per se, it still shows that the stuff you experiment with in your
garage still can be worthwhile.
Theodore Gray would be good too since he reaches audiences beyond the small group of home experimenters (although that’s who he appeals to) since he
writes in Popular Science and has his element collecting web site which is fairly popular as well.
The reason I stressed the need for ‘Excellent’ sources was because the teacher must have repeated it 3 or 4 times in class, stressing how we need
to look for the ‘Best’ possible sources to use….this is THE major project of the semester.
I am feeling much better about the topic already. Like I said, I have not really begun any in depth research as of yet, just skimming around getting
a feel for what is out there before I begin.
I figured if anyone would be able to suggest some sources off the top of their head it would be the people at this forum.
I’ll let you know what I find in the next couple days, and if you come up with any more suggestions I’d love to hear them, thanks.
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Sergei_Eisenstein
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Imagination is very important when chemistry is your hobby. Sadly enough, imagination is being killed in the Western "civilization", and as far as my
experience reaches, it is as good as dead in the Land of the Free. Overregulations and supersecurity wreck havoc in these nations that have initiated
a zombification process, aimed at cultivating mindless scientists(TM) ordering isopropanol in 50ml quantities from Sigma and sodium sulfate in 100g
packages from Merck-VWR. In another decade, a scientific discussion with your colleague PhDs in Europe may be inspiring enough to dig up those
fentanyl references you read as a teenager...
[Intermezzo - this is an advertisement from the European Union.]
http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/avs/files/photo/JPEG/newsphot...
[/Intermezzo - please continue enjoying your zombification process]
Back in "those days", freaks (the word doesn't have a negative conotation for me) did whatever they thought they should do, or in other words, they
could unleash their creativity and imagination on whatever they could get in their hands. Today, not so. Because the Supreme Zombies allow all the
producing industries to leave and settle in the Far East, many zombies become jobless. To solve the problem, new jobs have to be created. This is
easy: one zombie is responsible for all the lab's chemical orders and another zombie has to check that whatever the other zombie does is correct. Then
one zombie accepts a huge 25kg drum stating SODIUM CHLORIDE - STORE DRY, IRRITANT. Irritant, WTF? 25kg? We're gonna die! So they hire a third zombie
responsible for the security in the lab. He sees how one of the chemists is enjoying a sandwich at a distance of 5m from a bottle of TOLUENE and
arranges a 4th zombie is hired to make the chemists aware of all the dangers in the lab. Obviously, they now need a 5th zombie to coordinate the tasks
of the other four. Also obviously, they are a bore and a threat to the chemists unless they're zombies themselves. The construction of this
kafkaesque service "industry" has a catalyzing effect on the zombification process for some, and brings the stress hormones at a violent reflux in
others.
I was in an Asian country last month. I visited a plant shop and there were 25kg bags with big letters ZINC SULFATE and "fertilizer" in small print.
Never try to convince me people in developing countries are retarded.
| Quote: | | And of course instructors must always remind the students not to eat any of the chemicals. Of course, as silly and idiotic as it sounds, there is
actually reason why they say not to eat the stuff…because people do, I witnessed it with my own eyes….we were doing a lab in class using a
fine CuSO4 * 5H2O powder and a girl said, “it sure does look like pixie [stick] dust, I bet it is”, and then proceeded to lick her finger
and taste it! She quickly learned it was not candy and had to go get a drink very immediately. |
If you see her tasting other chemicals in the future, try to date her. I'm sure she'll be a nice girl. The chemistry will follow over time
[Edited on 19-10-2006 by Sergei_Eisenstein]
damnant quod non intelligunt
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Sandmeyer
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| Quote: | | we were doing a lab in class using a fine CuSO4 * 5H2O powder and a girl said, “it sure does look like pixie [stick] dust, I bet it is”,
and then proceeded to lick her finger and taste it! She quickly learned it was not candy and had to go get a drink very immediately.
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Ah, that's my kind of a girl! I'm sure she would like to taste certain organic chemicals, they are much more fun.
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quicksilver
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"we were doing a lab in class using a fine CuSO4 * 5H2O powder and a girl said, “it sure does look like pixie [stick] dust, I bet it is”, and then
proceeded to lick her finger and taste it! She quickly learned it was not candy and had to go get a drink very immediately."
You gotta' love it. The nobel scientific mind at work. And who said that women don't have their place in the sciences? JESUS H CHRIST! That's
unbelievable. Is she in a seroriity?
That brings to mind all the things that "look like" something else; mercury salts look entertaining....
Who taste tests things as an adult???????
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Waffles
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by quicksilverWho taste tests things as an adult??????? |
*raises hand*
Well, LEGALLY I'm adult, but I think you're talking in terms of maturity.
\"…\'tis man\'s perdition to be safe, when for the truth he ought to die.\"
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mrjeffy321
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I had no idea my anecdotal story about my high school chemistry class would be so "popular".
The girl was certainly not the brightest person in the world, as the story illustrates, and there are people out there (as stupid as it sounds [no
offense to "iamthewaffler"]) who will taste unknown chemicals. The next day in class the teacher was talking about the lab and mentioned that Copper
Sulfate is used as a root killer...everyone looks over to see if the girl was still alive after that even though the teacher was unaware of what
happened.
Something which was suggested to me concerning the paper was the idea of comparing the chemical restrictions in the United States (the focus country
of my paper) to what of other countries and their respective drug use / fire work statistics (since those are often cited as the reason for such
laws). What countries are known for their especially restrictive or lenient chemical laws?
Another idea would be to compare the effectiveness of these chemical laws within the United States in terms of the change in drug/firework manufacture
before and after the laws starting getting severe. Obviously 50 years ago the chemical restrictive laws we have no were not in place, when did the
majority of them start appearing? In the 1980s - 90s? And there was likely also a drastic increase after 9-11-01 as well.
I was toying around with the idea of interviewing actual police officer(s) to get both their personal and "official" opinions on the matter. I am
somewhat reluctant to do this however because they would mean having to talk with a police officer on the subject (red flag raiser). I could perhaps
show them pictures of 3 drastically different, common, chemicals (CuSO4, NaCl, and Fe2O3) and then ask them to identify the "root killer" versus the
cocaine or some such thing or ask them whether possessing "Nitroglycerin" in and off itself should label one a terrorist, or just someone with a heart
condition.
I found a couple quotes which you all find interesting...
From a US government Text book,
"The office of Technological Assessment, which provided congress with analysis on scientific and technological issues, was abolished in 1995."
Another is from this web page,
http://www.rotten.com/library/crime/drugs/methamphetamine/
"In North Carolina, crystal meth is considered a weapon of mass destruction, invoked in accordance with the Patriot Act under the state's Nuclear,
Biological, and Chemical Weapons Act. Under the law, a meth conviction results in a sentence ranging from 12 years to life in prison on each count."
On a semi-related matter, I recently read an email which claimed (I have no way of verifying its legitimacy, I but I have no reason to believe it is
not true) to be from a law enforcement officer to a member of an MSN group I am part of dealing with Hydrogen gas technology. The email basically
stated that although this law enforcement officer was sympathetic to the cause and personally interested, still, in his professional opinion, his
first thoughts when seeing Sodium Hydroxide and a number of other common chemicals in a car would be either "Meth lab" or "Pipe bomb" and not anything
legitimate unless the individual can PROVE otherwise (so much for innocent until proven guilty, now it is the other way around).
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Magpie
lab constructor
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Assuming you are in high school you are familiar with the C- jocks who like to get drunk on the weekends, drag race their cars, and generally enjoy
indulging in various misdemeanors. These are the same characters who, in a few years, after flunking out of college, are going to become the law
enforcement officers of your community. They will be some of the most chemically ignorant people on earth. Upon seeing a container of lye they will
react in only one predictable manner. Ditto for scales and coffee filters.
Someone else on this forum said it first and I believe it is true: "The more you are interested in them the more they are interested in you."
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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mrjeffy321
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Magpie
They will be some of the most chemically ignorant people on earth.
Someone else on this forum said it first and I believe it is true: "The more you are interested in them the more they are interested in you."
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I believe this is very true, which is why I am reluctant to go this route. I certainly do not expect the average patrol cop to be able to name off
chemical compound names or distinguish between various substances...that is not what they are interested in (usually), not is that what they are
trained to do. Their job is to enforce the laws and make their best judgment in the particular situation they find themselves in. But when the
situation deals with distinguishing a potential drug manufacturer or terrorist and someone who just likes to perform harmless experiments in their
kitchen, I would hope they will be able to perform.
I am actually in college, not high school.
To give an example of poor scientific education, even at the college science level....in my General Chemistry lab, a non-negligible portion of the
students did not have a clue as to the names of many types of glassware. When the instructions said something to the effect of "add 50 mL of NaOH
solution to an Erlenmeyer flask and titrate with HCl...some would literally have to ask the instructor which is the EM flask and which was the
burette. These are not just your run-of-the mill college students either which might or might not be science-savvy, these are science majors in one
form or another (chemistry, physics, biology, ...).
And by the way, the chemistry labs we did (at the college level) were essentially a joke, they lacked any whiff of imagination or freedom in the
process, it was essentially a very cook-bookish style lab which anyone could complete without having any understanding of the topic (aside from
knowing the names of the glassware).
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