| Pages:
1
2 |
thors.lab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 19-7-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
(safer) fluorination of benzaldehyde?
Does anybody have any procedures on the fluorination of benzaldehyde that would be suitable for a home-lab setup, not requiring specialized equipment?
I am particularly interested in 2-fluorobenzaldehyde, although it would be interesting to investigate other positions as well.
|
|
|
karlos³
International Hazard
Posts: 1520
Registered: 10-1-2011
Location: yes!
Member Is Offline
Mood: oxazolidinic 8)
|
|
You can't directly fluorinate benzaldehyde.
You can oly brominate and then exchange that with fluorine.
2-FA is boring by the way, the 3- position is much more interesting 
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4333
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
Diazotization of anthranilic acid, then reaction with fluoboric acid is the only route that comes to mind.
ETA: Oh, wait- you wanted the aldehyde, not the acid. That's not going to work.
[Edited on 2-8-2020 by DraconicAcid]
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Sigmatropic
Hazard to Others
Posts: 307
Registered: 29-1-2017
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
My guess is that this is going into 2c-x nbf.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4333
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
I'm following this thread only in the distant hope that I'll eventually get a benchtop NMR at the college, and would like to show my students coupling
to 19F.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
clearly_not_atara
International Hazard
Posts: 2788
Registered: 3-11-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Big
|
|
If diphenylimidazol-2-ylidene carbenes are available, salicylaldehyde can be deoxyfluorinated directly to the target compound:
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/ja2048072
The fluorination reagent is prepared by the oxidation of an NHC with Cl2 followed by halogen exchange.
|
|
|
symboom
International Hazard
Posts: 1143
Registered: 11-11-2010
Location: Wrongplanet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Doing science while it is still legal since 2010
|
|
Electrochemical fluorination
Where Flourine is made in situ and used up as soon as it's made its a process that os employed to avoid dealing with fluorine gas directly. That's the
only kind of fluorination technique I think that may be possible and safest in an amature setting
|
|
|
Syn the Sizer
National Hazard
Posts: 600
Registered: 12-11-2019
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
|
|
My guess was 2-FMA. For 2c-x he would want to fluoronate the 4 position, which is easy when the 2 and 5 position are filled with a methoxy group.
[Edited on 3-8-2020 by Syn the Sizer]
|
|
|
draculic acid69
International Hazard
Posts: 1371
Registered: 2-8-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'd just buy some.
|
|
|
Syn the Sizer
National Hazard
Posts: 600
Registered: 12-11-2019
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
|
|
You know where to buy 2-FA/2-FMA? Or do mean the 2-fluorobenzaldehyde?
|
|
|
thors.lab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 19-7-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks for the help guys. What I'm getting here is that half of you are saying no, there's no simple and cost-effective way to fluorinate benzaldehyde
selectively. I figured.
The other half seems to be obsessed with what nearly illegal compound I wanted to make. The answer is that I'm only here to make absolutely,
unequivocally legal compounds.
2-FMA
|
|
|
thors.lab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 19-7-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by karlos³  | You can't directly fluorinate benzaldehyde.
You can oly brominate and then exchange that with fluorine.
2-FA is boring by the way, the 3- position is much more interesting
|
This makes me wonder if anybody has researched 2-BrMA?
|
|
|
Syn the Sizer
National Hazard
Posts: 600
Registered: 12-11-2019
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
|
|
I am sure it has all been researched, but maybe not fully documented publically.
The reason we think you are making an illegal compound is, what else are you going to use 2-fluorobenzaldehyde for? Before assuming I googled as I
always do, to see what the compound could be used for and 2-FA/2-FMA were the only things I could find aside from sites selling 2-fluorobenzaldehyde.
Do you mind me asking what your legal use is, I am very curious.
|
|
|
deep_dreamer
Harmless
Posts: 9
Registered: 19-4-2018
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you pay attention to the steganography in his post, you'd see that he has just that in mind.
I'd doubt that there is a cost-effective route for the synthesis, and all the reagents needed are probably more suspicious/expensive than buying your
starting aldehyde in the first place. Unless your goal is actually making 2-fluorobenzaldehyde, and the subsequent reaction steps are just part of a
strange side project.
[Edited on 3-8-2020 by deep_dreamer]
|
|
|
Pumukli
National Hazard
Posts: 705
Registered: 2-3-2014
Location: EU
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Symboom, do you know anything particular about the electrochemical route(s) of fluorination?
This is entirely new to me I admit.
Is it really amateur friendly?
I thought that a Balz-Schieman reaction may be the most amateur "friendly" way but if you know a thing or two about an alternative route, please,
speak up! :-)
|
|
|
Dr.Bob
International Hazard
Posts: 2734
Registered: 26-1-2011
Location: USA - NC
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by symboom | | Electrochemical fluorination - Where Flourine is made in situ and used up as soon as it's made its a process that os employed to avoid dealing with
fluorine gas directly. That's the only kind of fluorination technique I think that may be possible and safest in an amature setting
|
Having worked in a fluorine chemistry company (many years ago, with my friend Ed), as well as trying to make some more recent fluorochemicals, I can
safely say that using direct fluoronations, even with electrochemistry, is not well within the scope of most home chemists. Frankly, making almost
any flurochemical is really tough, other than maybe the mentioned "Diazotization..., then reaction with fluoboric acid, which does work pretty well.
Just trying to figure out what you have made is tough, even with 19F NMR, which I have had to do before. At least fluorine 19 is abundant, unlike
13C. But 19F NMR is not easy, at least to me.
|
|
|
thors.lab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 19-7-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer | I am sure it has all been researched, but maybe not fully documented publically.
The reason we think you are making an illegal compound is, what else are you going to use 2-fluorobenzaldehyde for? Before assuming I googled as I
always do, to see what the compound could be used for and 2-FA/2-FMA were the only things I could find aside from sites selling 2-fluorobenzaldehyde.
Do you mind me asking what your legal use is, I am very curious. |
1. Synthesis of 2-FMA is not explicitly illegal. It could be argued that it would be illegal but it could also be argued otherwise.
2. I don't have to do anything with the 2-fluorobenzaldehyde, perhaps that's my end product.
3. I could also perhaps be researching derivatives too far removed from amphetamine to constitute as an analog
4. I'm not even planning to do such a synthesis anyway, mostly just curious.
[Edited on 4-8-2020 by thors.lab]
|
|
|
thors.lab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 19-7-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Dr.Bob | | Quote: Originally posted by symboom | | Electrochemical fluorination - Where Flourine is made in situ and used up as soon as it's made its a process that os employed to avoid dealing with
fluorine gas directly. That's the only kind of fluorination technique I think that may be possible and safest in an amature setting
|
Having worked in a fluorine chemistry company (many years ago, with my friend Ed), as well as trying to make some more recent fluorochemicals, I can
safely say that using direct fluoronations, even with electrochemistry, is not well within the scope of most home chemists. Frankly, making almost
any flurochemical is really tough, other than maybe the mentioned "Diazotization..., then reaction with fluoboric acid, which does work pretty well.
Just trying to figure out what you have made is tough, even with 19F NMR, which I have had to do before. At least fluorine 19 is abundant, unlike
13C. But 19F NMR is not easy, at least to me. |
That's a shame! It would be some interesting chemistry to explore.
|
|
|
draculic acid69
International Hazard
Posts: 1371
Registered: 2-8-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
I was talking about the aldehyde.i don't really care for the other compounds
|
|
|
Syn the Sizer
National Hazard
Posts: 600
Registered: 12-11-2019
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
|
|
@draculic acid69 Yes me too, I am interested in the science of it all though.
@thors.lab In some jurisdiction it is illegal as an analogue, in others not at all. Wikipedia lists 3 countries where it is a scheduled substance,
Canada, Germany and The UK, obviously in the US under the Federal Analogues Act.
I was genuinely interested in what your plan was. If it is literally just to explore the theoretical reaction awesome, it you are planning to attempt
the synthesis even cooler. If you really are exploring a distant cousin I am interested in the outcome of it.
Though you did state it was purely curiosity, that is what fuels science. Don't loose the curiosity.
|
|
|
Tellurium
Hazard to Self
Posts: 84
Registered: 12-7-2017
Location: Group 16, Chalcogen City
Member Is Offline
Mood: smelly
|
|
Well I would diazotize 2-Aminobenzyl alcohol with Fluoroboric acid(Just HF + Boric acid). The Diazonium salt can easily be isolated. The dry salt is
carefully heated to drive out BF3 and you end up with 2-Fluorobenzyl alcohol. This can then be turned to the aldehyde via the classic methods(Most
easy method by far is NaOCl and TEMPO-Catalyst, I also used the more easy produced or cheaper bought 4-Hydroxy-TEMPO).
I guess that is one of the most safe methods of fluorination of aromatics. The BF3 still isn't harmless, but its way better safer than other methods,
especially those involving elemental fluorine.
|
|
|
thors.lab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 19-7-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer | @draculic acid69 Yes me too, I am interested in the science of it all though.
@thors.lab In some jurisdiction it is illegal as an analogue, in others not at all. Wikipedia lists 3 countries where it is a scheduled substance,
Canada, Germany and The UK, obviously in the US under the Federal Analogues Act.
I was genuinely interested in what your plan was. If it is literally just to explore the theoretical reaction awesome, it you are planning to attempt
the synthesis even cooler. If you really are exploring a distant cousin I am interested in the outcome of it.
Though you did state it was purely curiosity, that is what fuels science. Don't loose the curiosity. |
I am in the US. The federal analogue act "allowed any chemical 'substantially similar' to a controlled substance listed in Schedule I or II to be
treated as if it were listed in Schedule I, but only if intended for human consumption." That last clause there is key. It's highly debated, but it is
there, and so it could be argued that synthesizing this compound would not be illegal.
Either way, if I just wanted to get high this wouldn't be the way of going about it. "The real deal" is easier to make anyway and substantially
cheaper.
But I'm glad you're not against exploring this compound for its chemistry — many would be. I guess we're all mad scientists here!
|
|
|
thors.lab
Hazard to Others
Posts: 103
Registered: 19-7-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Tellurium | Well I would diazotize 2-Aminobenzyl alcohol with Fluoroboric acid(Just HF + Boric acid). The Diazonium salt can easily be isolated. The dry salt is
carefully heated to drive out BF3 and you end up with 2-Fluorobenzyl alcohol. This can then be turned to the aldehyde via the classic methods(Most
easy method by far is NaOCl and TEMPO-Catalyst, I also used the more easy produced or cheaper bought 4-Hydroxy-TEMPO).
I guess that is one of the most safe methods of fluorination of aromatics. The BF3 still isn't harmless, but its way better safer than other methods,
especially those involving elemental fluorine. |
This is interesting. Can anybody chip in on whether this could work?
Now the question is synthesizing 2-aminobenzyl alcohol. haha.
|
|
|
Syn the Sizer
National Hazard
Posts: 600
Registered: 12-11-2019
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by thors.lab | | Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer | @draculic acid69 Yes me too, I am interested in the science of it all though.
@thors.lab In some jurisdiction it is illegal as an analogue, in others not at all. Wikipedia lists 3 countries where it is a scheduled substance,
Canada, Germany and The UK, obviously in the US under the Federal Analogues Act.
I was genuinely interested in what your plan was. If it is literally just to explore the theoretical reaction awesome, it you are planning to attempt
the synthesis even cooler. If you really are exploring a distant cousin I am interested in the outcome of it.
Though you did state it was purely curiosity, that is what fuels science. Don't loose the curiosity. |
I am in the US. The federal analogue act "allowed any chemical 'substantially similar' to a controlled substance listed in Schedule I or II to be
treated as if it were listed in Schedule I, but only if intended for human consumption." That last clause there is key. It's highly debated, but it is
there, and so it could be argued that synthesizing this compound would not be illegal.
Either way, if I just wanted to get high this wouldn't be the way of going about it. "The real deal" is easier to make anyway and substantially
cheaper.
But I'm glad you're not against exploring this compound for its chemistry — many would be. I guess we're all mad scientists here!
|
For sure, and truth is there is all kinds of crap you can do with an aldehyde and grignard reaction, or many other reactions.
|
|
|
JJay
International Hazard
Posts: 3440
Registered: 15-10-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
Why not start with toluidines? You could diazotize and react with fluoroboric acid, then add a carbonyl group with chromyl chloride or perhaps by
dichlorinating the methyl group under UV light and hydrolyzing it with hydrochoric acid or something.
Fluoroboric acid looks rather nasty and is probably not something I'd want to handle outside of an OSHA-compliant environment except maybe in tiny
quantities.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
