Draeger
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C + NaOH experiment - Did anything happen?
So, I decided to do an experiment to see if a result in reply to a parameter I input on a random website that seems to be able to figure out the
products of a reaction on it's own actually works. The website often isn't that reliable.
I mixed 10g of NaOH and 1g of charcoal together in a mortar and for some reason could only achieve a granular mix and was not able to powderize it.
I mixed them in this ratio:
6 NaOH + 2 C → 3 H2 + 2 Na + 2 Na2CO3
I then poured a tiny amount of the composition into a graphite crucible and heated it with a (pretty weak) burner. Not a lot happened except for small
waves of heat and an increase in the glow of the composition which I only presume to be the coal igniting. After about ten or maybe 20 seconds of
heating the composition, I stopped.
Out of the composition stuck white plates, which I only presume to be sodium hydroxide that melted. As a last test I poured water into it to see if a
reaction would occur. I think I might have heard slight bubbling, but it might have just been air trapped in the NaOH, or, since it would be very
unlikely sodium metal would survive the burner flames, maybe it was sodium peroxide?
I know it would be very unlikely that anything could've happened, but before I just discard it all I want to hear other's thoughts.
[Edited on 28-6-2020 by Draeger]
Collected elements:
Al, Cu, Ga, C (coal), S, Zn, Na
Collected compounds:
Inorganic:
NaOH; NaHCO3; MnCl2; MnCO3; CuSO4; FeSO4; aq. 30-33% HCl; aq. NaClO; aq. 9,5% ammonia; aq. 94-96% H2SO4; aq. 3% H2O2
Organic:
citric acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, petroleum, mineral oil
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Ubya
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nothing probably happened, even if some atoms of sodium managed to form, they reacted with the oxygen in the air (you didn't say that this was
performed in a sealed container flushed with argon)
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feel free to correct my grammar, or any mistakes i make
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Draeger
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Quote: Originally posted by Ubya  | | nothing probably happened, even if some atoms of sodium managed to form, they reacted with the oxygen in the air (you didn't say that this was
performed in a sealed container flushed with argon) |
Ah. Okay. Thank you.
Collected elements:
Al, Cu, Ga, C (coal), S, Zn, Na
Collected compounds:
Inorganic:
NaOH; NaHCO3; MnCl2; MnCO3; CuSO4; FeSO4; aq. 30-33% HCl; aq. NaClO; aq. 9,5% ammonia; aq. 94-96% H2SO4; aq. 3% H2O2
Organic:
citric acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, petroleum, mineral oil
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elementcollector1
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This technically counts as an example of carbothermic reduction, and is similar to how sodium was first isolated from its carbonate. So yes, in an
inert atmosphere and at high enough temperatures, this would certainly work.
Of course, actually testing this would require you to create an apparatus to deal with any hydrogen gas produced, keep an inert atmosphere going and
provide enough heat to maintain the reaction (carbothermic reductions are rarely as self-energizing as aluminothermic reductions), as well as prevent
the sodium from boiling off in the process (or alternatively distilling it to somewhere else for collection). Not terribly practical, all things
considered.
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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Eddie Current
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| Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1 | This technically counts as an example of carbothermic reduction, and is similar to how sodium was first isolated from its carbonate. So yes, in an
inert atmosphere and at high enough temperatures, this would certainly work.
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Do you have a paper on this original process?
I would be interested to know the reaction temperature.
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Draeger
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| Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1 | This technically counts as an example of carbothermic reduction, and is similar to how sodium was first isolated from its carbonate. So yes, in an
inert atmosphere and at high enough temperatures, this would certainly work.
Of course, actually testing this would require you to create an apparatus to deal with any hydrogen gas produced, keep an inert atmosphere going and
provide enough heat to maintain the reaction (carbothermic reductions are rarely as self-energizing as aluminothermic reductions), as well as prevent
the sodium from boiling off in the process (or alternatively distilling it to somewhere else for collection). Not terribly practical, all things
considered. |
Thank you. Sounds like hell actually making such an apparatus. Not something I'll try. Hydrogen gas and sodium vapor sounds like a bit too much energy
able to be released at any mistake.
Collected elements:
Al, Cu, Ga, C (coal), S, Zn, Na
Collected compounds:
Inorganic:
NaOH; NaHCO3; MnCl2; MnCO3; CuSO4; FeSO4; aq. 30-33% HCl; aq. NaClO; aq. 9,5% ammonia; aq. 94-96% H2SO4; aq. 3% H2O2
Organic:
citric acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, petroleum, mineral oil
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elementcollector1
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Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
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Mood: Molten
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Can't find a specific paper as a source (best I found was an autobiography on the inventor, which would likely be a tedious read), but Wikipedia cites
1100 oC as part of the Deville process for making aluminum, starting with sodium from sodium carbonate and carbon. Sodium vapor was likely
then distilled over, at those temperatures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium#Commercial_production
Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
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Refinery
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Na reacts with hydrogen gas to form sodium hydride, hence probably hydroxide cannot be readily converted into metal, unless the reaction would occur
below the formation temp. Na2CO3 on the other hand turns into oxides of carbon, which leave the reactor.
Na2CO3 + 2 C → 2 Na + 3 CO
1100C might be too much temp for high pressure propane burner. Theoretical temp is 1980C, but in no way even small metal object go much beyond 1000C
when immersed inside the flame. On the other hand, a SS vessel placed in ceramic wool insulated oven would work if the temp is achieved to start the
reaction. An exhaust tubing through the wall could be used to collect the sodium metal, because it melts at 98C so the residual heat and thermal mass
will keep it flowing until it drops to collect into the receiving vessel.
I could actually look into this reaction. I should have a proper vessel around, with few fittings to be done. It doesn't work though, if I can't reach
the temp. It could be done with charcoal, but I've managed to melt a couple of SS pots with it due to the heat. Possibly the reactor could be
pre-heated with decent coal bath and then more heat added with propane torch.
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Refinery
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I gathered some old stuff and found this. It could be viable for above reaction.
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