| Pages:
1
2 |
reactofurnace
Hazard to Self
Posts: 76
Registered: 17-7-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
Why is tin and HCl rxn so slow?
Attempting to purify some tin which I obtained from lead-free solder. The other impurities are most likely silver and copper. My first step was to
dissolve some snippets of the tin solder in concentrated hydrochloric acid... however I soon came to the realization that tin's rxn with HCl is
excruciatingly slow. Does anyone know why this is? any suggestions on how I could speed it up (apart from heating or refluxing)
|
|
|
j_sum1
Administrator
Posts: 6336
Registered: 4-10-2014
Location: At home
Member Is Offline
Mood: Most of the ducks are in a row
|
|
I forget which youtuber it was... But I have followed his example:
Melt tin in a large container. Swirl it around while molten so that it solidifies into a thin foil-like shape. Then cut into pieces and dissolve in
conc HCl while stirring. This reduces the time from days to a few hours.
I believe it can go faster with heating, but I avoid warming concentrated hydrochloric acid. I think some H2O2 may help too. Worth an experiment.
The issue I believe is the oxide coating. But there may be other factors. Maybe related to crystalline structure, grain size or grain boundaty
effects.
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4357
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
I wonder if copper would catalyze the reaction, as it does for zinc and aluminum.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
SplendidAcylation
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 28-10-2018
Location: Starving in some deep mystery
Member Is Offline
Mood: No one I think is in my tree.
|
|
I did this reaction recently
It is indeed very slow, I reasoned that it is because of tin's position in the reactivity series of metals; of the metals more electropositive than
hydrogen, tin is the second most electronegative, after lead.
So when it comes to dissolving metals in HCl, lead will be the slowest, followed by tin.
I agree with j_sum1, increasing the surface area and/or heating the acid will both help.
To increase the surface area, I found the following method more effective;
Melt the tin, and drop it from a height onto an appropriate surface.
I dropped a spoonful of molten tin about 2 metres onto tiles, and I got a big splatter of tin, very thin, and without the thick bits that tend to form
when doing the swirling method
Then cut it into small pieces.
Even when I did this, it still took days, until I eventually lost patience and boiled it in acid...
This made a huge difference, and what remained dissolved within minutes
Be careful with boiling HCl, if you get it on your skin you'll be okay provided you rinse it off with cold water, but don't get it in your eyes
Also proper ventilation is necessary, as the vapours from hot (and cold, to a lesser extent) HCl will rapidly corrode practically any metal
Well I used tin solder which is 99% tin and 1% copper and it still took days; if the copper did indeed catalyze the reaction, I'd hate to see how slow
it is without copper! 
[Edited on 28-6-2020 by SplendidAcylation]
|
|
|
DraconicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 4357
Registered: 1-2-2013
Location: The tiniest college campus ever....
Member Is Offline
Mood: Semi-victorious.
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by SplendidAcylation  | I did this reaction recently
It is indeed very slow, I reasoned that it is because of tin's position in the reactivity series of metals; of the metals more electropositive than
hydrogen, tin is the second most electronegative, after lead.
So when it comes to dissolving metals in HCl, lead will be the slowest, followed by tin. |
The reactivity series is a thermodynamic listing- kinetics are independent of thermodynamics. There are many single replacement-type reactions which
are spontaneous, but just don't go at any appreciable rate. Aluminum won't react with copper(II) ions in the absence of chloride ions; iron will,
even though aluminum is much more reactive.
Please remember: "Filtrate" is not a verb.
Write up your lab reports the way your instructor wants them, not the way your ex-instructor wants them.
|
|
|
Bedlasky
International Hazard
Posts: 1244
Registered: 15-4-2019
Location: Period 5, group 6
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | | Aluminum won't react with copper(II) ions in the absence of chloride ions; iron will, even though aluminum is much more reactive.
|
I once tried reaction between aluminium foil and copper sulfate solution. Aluminium reacts with Cu2+ ions, but reaction took few days. With iron is
reaction much faster, even in cold water iron dissolves in few hours.
|
|
|
Sulaiman
International Hazard
Posts: 3727
Registered: 8-2-2015
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
Member Is Offline
|
|
I would try hammering the tin into flat flakes ot a ribbon.
I once dropped a small ingot of tin into a flask of 36% HCl ... it only took a few weeks to dissolve 
A black powder (tin oxide ?) kept loosely coating the surface,
a quick swirl and the powder dissolved very quickly,
so as well as maximising surface area,
some kind of constant agitation should significantly speed up the process - I guess.
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
|
|
|
Metacelsus
International Hazard
Posts: 2539
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble
|
|
From personal experience, Sn/HCl reductions of nitro groups go very quickly, producing tin chloride and an amine hydrochloride. When I did this, I
melted the tin and poured it into water to make tin granules, which I then used.
Maybe adding an oxidizer would help speed things up. Or perhaps you could use the tin as an anode in an electrolytic cell.
|
|
|
reactofurnace
Hazard to Self
Posts: 76
Registered: 17-7-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | | Quote: Originally posted by SplendidAcylation | I did this reaction recently
It is indeed very slow, I reasoned that it is because of tin's position in the reactivity series of metals; of the metals more electropositive than
hydrogen, tin is the second most electronegative, after lead.
So when it comes to dissolving metals in HCl, lead will be the slowest, followed by tin. |
The reactivity series is a thermodynamic listing- kinetics are independent of thermodynamics. There are many single replacement-type reactions which
are spontaneous, but just don't go at any appreciable rate. Aluminum won't react with copper(II) ions in the absence of chloride ions; iron will,
even though aluminum is much more reactive. |
Interesting point
|
|
|
reactofurnace
Hazard to Self
Posts: 76
Registered: 17-7-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by j_sum1 | I forget which youtuber it was... But I have followed his example:
Melt tin in a large container. Swirl it around while molten so that it solidifies into a thin foil-like shape. Then cut into pieces and dissolve in
conc HCl while stirring. This reduces the time from days to a few hours.
I believe it can go faster with heating, but I avoid warming concentrated hydrochloric acid. I think some H2O2 may help too. Worth an experiment.
The issue I believe is the oxide coating. But there may be other factors. Maybe related to crystalline structure, grain size or grain boundaty
effects. |
Will definitely try that! Thanks @j_sum1
|
|
|
reactofurnace
Hazard to Self
Posts: 76
Registered: 17-7-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by SplendidAcylation | I did this reaction recently
It is indeed very slow, I reasoned that it is because of tin's position in the reactivity series of metals; of the metals more electropositive than
hydrogen, tin is the second most electronegative, after lead.
So when it comes to dissolving metals in HCl, lead will be the slowest, followed by tin.
I agree with j_sum1, increasing the surface area and/or heating the acid will both help.
To increase the surface area, I found the following method more effective;
Melt the tin, and drop it from a height onto an appropriate surface.
I dropped a spoonful of molten tin about 2 metres onto tiles, and I got a big splatter of tin, very thin, and without the thick bits that tend to form
when doing the swirling method
Then cut it into small pieces.
Even when I did this, it still took days, until I eventually lost patience and boiled it in acid...
This made a huge difference, and what remained dissolved within minutes
Be careful with boiling HCl, if you get it on your skin you'll be okay provided you rinse it off with cold water, but don't get it in your eyes
Also proper ventilation is necessary, as the vapours from hot (and cold, to a lesser extent) HCl will rapidly corrode practically any metal
Well I used tin solder which is 99% tin and 1% copper and it still took days; if the copper did indeed catalyze the reaction, I'd hate to see how slow
it is without copper!
[Edited on 28-6-2020 by SplendidAcylation] |
Yess boiling HCl fumes is quite alot to deal with without a fumehood. I may just need to wait for a breezy day.
|
|
|
reactofurnace
Hazard to Self
Posts: 76
Registered: 17-7-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Sulaiman | I would try hammering the tin into flat flakes ot a ribbon.
I once dropped a small ingot of tin into a flask of 36% HCl ... it only took a few weeks to dissolve
A black powder (tin oxide ?) kept loosely coating the surface,
a quick swirl and the powder dissolved very quickly,
so as well as maximising surface area,
some kind of constant agitation should significantly speed up the process - I guess. |
Weeks!
Okay thanks Ill try to get some way to agitate the mixture.
|
|
|
reactofurnace
Hazard to Self
Posts: 76
Registered: 17-7-2015
Member Is Offline
Mood: Volatile
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Metacelsus | From personal experience, Sn/HCl reductions of nitro groups go very quickly, producing tin chloride and an amine hydrochloride. When I did this, I
melted the tin and poured it into water to make tin granules, which I then used.
Maybe adding an oxidizer would help speed things up. Or perhaps you could use the tin as an anode in an electrolytic cell. |
I'll test this out if all else fails. Thanks tho!
|
|
|
Tsjerk
International Hazard
Posts: 3032
Registered: 20-4-2005
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mood
|
|
If you are planning to heat the HCl better dilute it to a little below 20%. That way the HCl fumes a lot less.
|
|
|
Abromination
Hazard to Others
Posts: 432
Registered: 10-7-2018
Location: Alaska
Member Is Offline
Mood: 1,4 tar
|
|
I like to melt the tin and pour it into cool water, forming a rather porous material rather like "mossy" zinc. This gives it a much greater surface
area. I also add a small amount of concentrated peroxide to my acid to speed up the reaction and allow the mixture to boil with stirring. As a note,
It may help to dilute your acid a bit to prevent an excessive release of hydrogen chloride if your acid is concentrated (I can only buy it as the
azeotrope here anyways), although this will slow it down a bit. Still shouldn't take more than a few hours.
List of materials made by ScienceMadness.org users:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nmJ8uq-h4IkXPxD5svnT...
--------------------------------
Elements Collected: H, Li, B, C, N, O, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Fe, Ni, Cu, Zn, Ag, I, Au, Pb, Bi, Am
Last Acquired: B
Next: Na
-------------- |
|
|
AgCollector
Harmless
Posts: 24
Registered: 31-7-2018
Member Is Offline
|
|
If you do go with an added oxidizer (such as hydrogen peroxide), it's liable to readily give you Sn(IV) so I'd suggest having an excess of tin metal
around, to reduce it back down to Sn(II).
Of course, make sure you are keeping an excess of HCl around too, I'd suggest at least 1 M, to avoid hydrolysis and formation of Sn(OH)Cl.
Out of curiosity, what's the next step after you have SnCl2?
|
|
|
violet sin
International Hazard
Posts: 1482
Registered: 2-9-2012
Location: Daydreaming of uraninite...
Member Is Offline
Mood: Good
|
|
I found some reading if anyone is interested
THE ANODIC DISSOLUTION OF TIN IN ACIDIC CHLORIDE SOLUTIONS
J. W. JOHNSON and E. C. LIU
Attachment: johnson1974.pdf (478kB)
This file has been downloaded 366 times
8 pages
Corrosion of Tin and its Alloys*
December 2010 DOI: 10.1016/B978-044452787-5.00099-8
author:Stuart Lyon The University of Manchester
Attachment: CS099_Corrosion_of_Tin.pdf (250kB)
This file has been downloaded 596 times
17 pages
|
|
|
SplendidAcylation
Hazard to Others
Posts: 203
Registered: 28-10-2018
Location: Starving in some deep mystery
Member Is Offline
Mood: No one I think is in my tree.
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid | | Quote: Originally posted by SplendidAcylation | I did this reaction recently
It is indeed very slow, I reasoned that it is because of tin's position in the reactivity series of metals; of the metals more electropositive than
hydrogen, tin is the second most electronegative, after lead.
So when it comes to dissolving metals in HCl, lead will be the slowest, followed by tin. |
The reactivity series is a thermodynamic listing- kinetics are independent of thermodynamics. There are many single replacement-type reactions which
are spontaneous, but just don't go at any appreciable rate. Aluminum won't react with copper(II) ions in the absence of chloride ions; iron will,
even though aluminum is much more reactive. |
That's interesting, I stand corrected 
I have tried the aluminium + copper (II) reaction, and I was indeed surprised to find it didn't work, I just assumed it was due to the passivation
layer
|
|
|
almaz
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 21-12-2010
Location: Russia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi, everybody. Tin is known to be reluctant to dissolve in HCl. Pt can speed up its dissolution. This is a galvanic pair. It should be in the form of
a wire or a whole metal. It will not be used up, and You can return it back.
I'm number one, I am the best.
|
|
|
Fyndium
International Hazard
Posts: 1192
Registered: 12-7-2020
Location: Not in USA
Member Is Offline
|
|
When I reacted lead, I smelted it and poured it into water through a sieve. It formed fine shots, which increased the surface area significantly
compared to a simple block of lead.
|
|
|
almaz
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 21-12-2010
Location: Russia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Even if the tin is in the form of a foil, it will take a very long time to dissolve. I made a dissolution of two identical pieces of tin by weight. 1
Without platinum and 1 with platinum. At the same time, without Pt, it does not dissolve even after 2 days. If you want to speed up the dissolution
even more, then heating is necessary.
I'm number one, I am the best.
|
|
|
teodor
National Hazard
Posts: 924
Registered: 28-6-2019
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
|
|
Do you think the usage of Pt is more affordable way than just aqua regia ?
|
|
|
symboom
International Hazard
Posts: 1143
Registered: 11-11-2010
Location: Wrongplanet
Member Is Offline
Mood: Doing science while it is still legal since 2010
|
|
There has got to be a way to speed it up with peroxide
|
|
|
almaz
Harmless
Posts: 12
Registered: 21-12-2010
Location: Russia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I do not know if this is available for beginners. They asked How to speed up the dissolution. I gave the answer.
I'm number one, I am the best.
|
|
|
teodor
National Hazard
Posts: 924
Registered: 28-6-2019
Location: Netherlands
Member Is Offline
|
|
I think addition of nitrate e.g. KNO3 should speed up the reaction, because it will form a kind of aqua-regia in-situ. Just need to try.
[Edited on 27-10-2020 by teodor]
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
