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twelti
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Quote: Originally posted by underground  | Wow amazing news. Well done!! Will you try the white thing, like what i got?
Also compared to 2.5g ETN or PETN the damage to the plate is similar ? Do you have another plate with lest say 2.5g ETN or PETN ?
[Edited on 2-9-2019 by underground] |
I think it IS the white stuff like you got. It is just powdered. I found that if you evaporate it down to a syrup, and add a small amount of
methanol, maybe 2 or 3 times the volume of the syrup, you can get it to a (suspended) crystalline powder, and filter or whatever. Much easier to
handle that way. It is weird though, sometimes it doesn't work and i have to try again. It is somewhat unpredictable, or I just haven't figured it
out yet. I did previously do one that was solid white like yours, and I think it worked too. Just needs a healthy kick.
I will try 2.5 g of ETN, same setup.
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underground
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Very good information twelti, well done! I will let you know when i test my own. It looks promising.
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Rosco Bodine
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The carbohydrazide perchlorate would be the interesting candidate for testing from what I get as an impression.
It could make an interesting double salt with guanidine perchlorate, or triaminoguandine perchlorate, or other perchlorates like betaine perchlorate
or glycine perchlorate or hydrazine perchlorate or methylamine perchlorate, or trimethylamine perchlorate, or tetramethylamine perchlorate, or
possibly even hexamethylene tetramine diperchlorate.
Some of these might also form complex salts with nickel or copper or possibly even silver.
Another possibility is that the nickel carbohydrazide perchlorate might form a double or mixed salt with nickel hydrazine perchlorate or nickel
semicarbazide perchlorate. The complex nickel hydrazine perchlorate is reportedly exceedingly sensitive and dangerous but the semicarbazide nickel
complex analogue is a material on which I have been unable to find any references.
[Edited on 9/3/2019 by Rosco Bodine]
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine |
The carbohydrazide perchlorate would be the interesting candidate for testing from what I get as an impression.
It could make an interesting double salt with guanidine perchlorate, or triaminoguandine perchlorate, or other perchlorates like betaine perchlorate
or glycine perchlorate or hydrazine perchlorate or methylamine perchlorate, or trimethylamine perchlorate, or tetramethylamine perchlorate, or
possibly even hexamethylene tetramine diperchlorate.
Some of these might also form complex salts with nickel or copper or possibly even silver.
Another possibility is that the nickel carbohydrazide perchlorate might form a double or mixed salt with nickel hydrazine perchlorate or nickel
semicarbazide perchlorate. The complex nickel hydrazine perchlorate is reportedly exceedingly sensitive and dangerous but the semicarbazide nickel
complex analogue is a material on which I have been unable to find any references.
[Edited on 9/3/2019 by Rosco Bodine] |
Why would these double salts be interesting...?the molecules you listed already contain a nitrogen containing fuel and an oxidizer...
The nitrate is easy and cheap to make... any thoughts on raising its heat of formation (explosion) or on how to crystallize effectively?
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twelti
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| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | | Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine |
The carbohydrazide perchlorate would be the interesting candidate for testing from what I get as an impression.
It could make an interesting double salt with guanidine perchlorate, or triaminoguandine perchlorate, or other perchlorates like betaine perchlorate
or glycine perchlorate or hydrazine perchlorate or methylamine perchlorate, or trimethylamine perchlorate, or tetramethylamine perchlorate, or
possibly even hexamethylene tetramine diperchlorate.
Some of these might also form complex salts with nickel or copper or possibly even silver.
Another possibility is that the nickel carbohydrazide perchlorate might form a double or mixed salt with nickel hydrazine perchlorate or nickel
semicarbazide perchlorate. The complex nickel hydrazine perchlorate is reportedly exceedingly sensitive and dangerous but the semicarbazide nickel
complex analogue is a material on which I have been unable to find any references.
[Edited on 9/3/2019 by Rosco Bodine] |
Why would these double salts be interesting...?the molecules you listed already contain a nitrogen containing fuel and an oxidizer...
The nitrate is easy and cheap to make... any thoughts on raising its heat of formation (explosion) or on how to crystallize effectively?
|
Not sure bout the heat, but crystallizing is easy. I'm using about a quarter of the water they used in Fischer, to minimize water content but prevent
too much heating when you add the carbohydrazide. I evaporate it down (a little heat and a lot of stirring and air), then put some methanol on top,
so it layers, then drop a couple of seed crystals in. Around 3 days and it is done - no refrigeration needed. I think the methanol is sucking the
remaining water from the nitrated mixture, not sure.
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti |
Not sure bout the heat, but crystallizing is easy. I'm using about a quarter of the water they used in Fischer, to minimize water content but prevent
too much heating when you add the carbohydrazide. I evaporate it down (a little heat and a lot of stirring and air), then put some methanol on top,
so it layers, then drop a couple of seed crystals in. Around 3 days and it is done - no refrigeration needed. I think the methanol is sucking the
remaining water from the nitrated mixture, not sure. |
Are you going to make a nice, easy to follow step by step how-to video
[Edited on 3-9-2019 by wessonsmith]
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Rosco Bodine
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| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | | Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine |
The carbohydrazide perchlorate would be the interesting candidate for testing from what I get as an impression.
It could make an interesting double salt with guanidine perchlorate, or triaminoguandine perchlorate, or other perchlorates like betaine perchlorate
or glycine perchlorate or hydrazine perchlorate or methylamine perchlorate, or trimethylamine perchlorate, or tetramethylamine perchlorate, or
possibly even hexamethylene tetramine diperchlorate.
Some of these might also form complex salts with nickel or copper or possibly even silver.
Another possibility is that the nickel carbohydrazide perchlorate might form a double or mixed salt with nickel hydrazine perchlorate or nickel
semicarbazide perchlorate. The complex nickel hydrazine perchlorate is reportedly exceedingly sensitive and dangerous but the semicarbazide nickel
complex analogue is a material on which I have been unable to find any references.
[Edited on 9/3/2019 by Rosco Bodine] |
Why would these double salts be interesting...?the molecules you listed already contain a nitrogen containing fuel and an oxidizer...
The nitrate is easy and cheap to make... any thoughts on raising its heat of formation (explosion) or on how to crystallize effectively?
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Sheesh...Put on your thinking cap to become a curious cat. But try not to let curiosity kill the cat. Be a very wary and careful smart cat. Paranoid
watchful nervous cats are rarely and less likely to become road kill or get their twitching little low mileage tails pinched by any ancients' rocking
chairs.  What are unknowns there about such double salts or complexes or mixtures
are interesting because properties can be synergistic and desirable.
It is only very rarely that single compounds are used neat in pure form as an ideal component but are more often "compounded" in "medicinal" designer
formulations where the various components contribute their benefit to the formulation that is a sum and maybe more than just a simple sum of the
components.
Carbohydrazide Perchlorate is itself interesting and so is its complex with Nickel.
Another possible reaction and double salt would be the possible reaction of Carbohydrazide with Ammonium Perchlorate.
Would simply dissolving Carbohydrazide in a warm water solution of Ammonium Perchlorate result in displacement of Ammonia byproduct and formation of
Carbohydrazide Perchlorate and/or a double salt?
If the solubility driven reaction would occur, that would be worth knowing. Or such a reaction might require a different approach to exploit
solubility for driving a metathesis "ion exchange" reaction.
Calcium Hydroxide can be reacted with Ammonium Perchlorate to displace Ammonia and result in a Calcium Perchlorate solution.
A low solubility Calcium Sulfate or even lower solubility Calcium Sulfate - Sodium Sulfate double salt could possibly be precipitated
to leave a dilute Perchloric Acid having been substantially stripped of its Calcium value....ready for neutralization by Carbohydrazide, with
evaporation and crystallization and filtering to obtain the Carbohydrazide Perchlorate. If a cocrystallization with Ammonium Perchlorate does occur
then that could be done to facilitate isolation of a double salt.
Thinking Cap / curious cat / example / exhibit A 
[Edited on 9/4/2019 by Rosco Bodine]
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twelti
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Could do, maybe this weekend!
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wessonsmith
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Awesome!
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twelti
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OK, I did a comparison to the 2.5 g of DAUN (see previous post). This was 2.5 g ETN straight up. Same conditions, both in 3/8" ID CF tubes, next to
conduit cover plate. Looks like the DAUN is more brissant, though this is not a super scientific test.
 
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underground
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WoW twelti this is amazing!!! I didn't expect that!! Sometimes i was thinking if i did well by buying DU but now i am really glad i bought it lol.
[Edited on 8-9-2019 by underground]
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twelti
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| Quote: Originally posted by underground | WoW twelti this is amazing!!! I didn't expect that!! Sometimes i was thinking if i did well by buying DU but now i am really glad i bought it lol.
[Edited on 8-9-2019 by underground] |
Me too, I was beginning to doubt, but now I know I didn't waste my money! Have you managed to get the crystalline powder form yet? I'm now wondering
if there is some way to control crystal size etc. Right now it is either medium sized crystals or solid. Also want to try adding the aluminum, and
maybe investigating the perchlorate salt as Rosco mentioned.
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underground
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I will definitely try what you did in order to get the crystals. I will let you know when i got any news.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti | OK, I did a comparison to the 2.5 g of DAUN (see previous post). This was 2.5 g ETN straight up. Same conditions, both in 3/8" ID CF tubes, next to
conduit cover plate. Looks like the DAUN is more brissant, though this is not a super scientific test.
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Excellent work! This makes sense as the VOD is almost 9000 and the volume of gas is very high.
Can you try casting it now?
I hate starting this thread and not contributing, but, I am not able to at this time.
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franklyn
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Some thoughts
1,3-Diaminourea
N,N'-diamino-Urea
Carbohydrazide
Carbonicdihydrazide
Carbonyldihydrazine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrazide
Hazardous Chemicals Desk Reference
https://books.google.com/books?id=WZeBDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA161...
Any of the above names appended with dinitrate identify the same molecule.
Essentially this compound is comprised of 2 Hydrazino Nitrate moieties joined to a carbonyl. It's properties must be much like the known data on
Hydrazinium Nitrate.
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=874#pid187600
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10058#pid1194...
www.researchgate.net/publication/330474244_Detonation_proper...
It's annoying the cited paper only evaluates the hydrate which can scarcely be regarded a discreet compound. The mol of water is a spectator and
absorbs much heat on detonation. Using Engager's Detonation utility and the heat of formation value Δ f in the paper to evaluate the hydrate gives
a detonation velocity a little short of the one printed , ~ 7200 m/s .
Given the affinity for water similar polar solvents such as Methanol and Glycol should blend. Adding a small amount of Methanol less than 4.7 % ,
stoichiometrically balances detonation products and may serve to sensitize. Ethylene Glycol thinned with Methanol blended with the anhydrous
Dinitrate and vacuum drying off the lighter Methanol so only the Glycol remains to prevent formation of the crystal latice can yield a plastic
composition. Refrain from kneading with fingers until properties are determined. 5.4 % composition of Glycol is oxygen balanced.
3 CO(NH.NH2)2•2HNO3 + CH3OH => 4 CO2 + 14 H2O + 9 N2
5 CO(NH.NH2)2•2HNO3 + C2H4(OH)2 => 7 CO2 + 23 H2O + 15 N2
Peroxidates of ionic Nitrates disussed here => www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1778&page...
suggest Hydrogen Peroxide can substitute the water of the hydrate to form an adduct. Vacuum drying from a solution with 40 vol hair bleach which is
12 % peroxide should yield the adduct. To acertain the product put a smal puddle of Hypochlorite solution ( laundry bleach ) a few centimeters from a
sample and tilt the setup so the liquid runs to contact it to react effervescently. I don't think this can cause detonation but assume it could.
Acidity of the Dinitrate as yet undisclosed or referenced can perhaps join with a base molecule in a co-crystal lattice. I discussed this liklihood
with Dinitrourea + Nitroguanidine to form an Adduct. 5 CO(NH.NH2)2•2HNO3 + 2 (NH2)2CHNNO2 => 7 CO2 + 25 H2 + 19 N2
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=9443#pid17013...
Actual test detonation velocity data can be had with this setup.
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=63051#pid4130...
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MineMan
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Really interesting franklyn... glad to see your back and thank you for the thoughts!!
I have to admit, the mono nitrate seems much simpler... but I am assuming the techniques you provided will greatly increase the dinitrate.
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franklyn
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More thoughts
Would be nice if this program were in the public domain , providing one would not also need a supercomputer to use it.
Theoretical Prediction of the Heats of Formation , Densities , (etc.) by computation
www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2015/ARL-TN-0693.pdf
CO(HNNH2)2• HNO3 => 3 H2O + CO + 3 N2 + H2
2 CO(HNNH2)2• 2HNO3 => 8 H2O + 2 CO2 + 6 N2 + O2
Co-crystallization of two dinitrate mols with one mononitrate mol is oxygen balanced.
2 CO(HNNH2)2• 2HNO3 + CO(HNNH2)2• HNO3 => 12 H2O + 3 CO2 + 9 N2
The mononitrate must have some slight basic quality favoring formation of a peroxidate.
CO(HNNH2)2• HNO3 •H2O2 => 5 H2O + CO + 3 N2
CO(HNNH2)2• 2HNO3 => 4 H2O + CO2 + N2 + 1/2 O2
Co-crystallization of one mol mononitrate peroxidate with one mol dinitrate is oxygen balanced.
CO(HNNH2)2• 2HNO3 + CO(HNNH2)2• HNO3 •H2O2 => 9 H2O + 2 CO2 + 4 N2
From the known behavior of Nitromethane in composition with Ammonium Nitrate , alias Kinepak , similar sensitization occurs with Urea Nitrate , it
follows some addition to Diaminouronium mononitrate can make it readily detonable.
Digressing from the subject of this thread , chlorinating DAU should substitute at least the amine hydrogens producing a di-acid 1,3-Dichloramine
urea.
CO(HN.NCl2)2 => 2 HCl + COCl2 + 2 N2 ( Hydrogen Chloride & Phosgene as a product , hmm )
Complete chlorination takes it to CO(NCl.NCl2)2 , not a known compound from what I can see , although Tetrachlorohdrazine exists N2Cl4
Dichlorourea CO(HNCl)2 preparation
https://books.google.com/books?id=vyPOAAAAMAAJ&lpg=RA1-P...
A diverse varied chemistry evolves from this seemingly bland precursor DAU presenting many further avenues for investigation.
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20296#pid2604...
www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2945&page...
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twelti
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Yer makin my head spin again. If there is a simple and most interesting thing to try, what would it be?
BTW, tried again with the cast DAUN. Still no go, though it may be my fault. I think I may have had a small physical gap in the firing train,
between the ETN (0.7 g hand pressed) and the 2 g of cast DAUN. Maybe .5 mm gap. Not sure if that would cause it to not kick off.
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underground
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Try a core of ETN or a mini shape charge for better initiation
[Edited on 22-9-2019 by underground]
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MineMan
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Any update for the cast stuff? This looks like the perfect insensitive explosive. Also. Would love to see a cast mixed with 20 percent fine aluminum.
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underground
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Unfortunately i am quite busy those days. I have already cast some DUN into some small containers but i have not tested them yet. I wraped them with
some plastic wrap and all are dry except one where the wrap was almost removed. The top of that container was like cream due to its hygroscopicity,
after removing that cream, it was solid like all the others. I will post here when i got any news from future tests.
[Edited on 12-10-2019 by underground]
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Mr.Greeenix
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| Quote: Originally posted by twelti | | UPDATE: I have now figured out how to crystalize this stuff out, nice pristine and largish crystals. I have figured out how to get it into a nice
crystaline flowable powder form. I have cast it. I have done quite a few things except manage to detonate any (unequivocally). Just tried 5 g of
cast DAUN, with 1.2 g hand pressed PETN, in a 10 mm tube. I found the cast part in the bucket, so no det that time. I tried once already, using
the powder form, pressed in a tube, didn't seem to work either. I've tried a few different things, but no joy yet. I wonder how I could sensitize
it a little. MM, you mentioned adding aluminum for more energy. Would that sensitize it as well? Can anyone calculate the critical diameter?
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I just wondered can you maybe describe exactly how you got those crystalls? I cant seem to get any crystalls from an water/ethanol mixture, even after
weeks of standing...
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underground
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I just tried to ddt some DUN with just hmtd and with hmtd+petn for a booster, thet both failed to ddt. I will do some more tests but the stuff looks
quite insensitive.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by underground | | I just tried to ddt some DUN with just hmtd and with hmtd+petn for a booster, thet both failed to ddt. I will do some more tests but the stuff looks
quite insensitive. |
Yes. Please do!!
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twelti
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Been away for a while. Getting this stuff to crystalize seems a little tricky. Seems like i had to boil it down, add alcohol, let site, boil down ,
add alcohol, etc. until it worked. Sometimes it worked right away and sometimes it didn't or i got different results. Seems a bit fickle. I have
sort of given up on the cast material up to now. I have for the time being hit my limit on how large of devices I am wanting to work on!
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