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Petn1933
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What’s your opinion?
Whate you think about this:
Petn 67%
Etn 28%
Nc 2.5%
Al powder 2.5%
We Mix all with acetone and then mold it.
I want to know your opinion friends
Tnx
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LardmanAttack
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Try it. 
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underground
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2.5% Nc wont do much. Also AL is not needed.
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Herr Haber
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Silly idea.
If you add acetone to that mix you will have a mixed solution of nitric esters.
Then you wont be able to "mold" anything at all. You could then evaporate the acetone but... you're just overcomplicating things.
I suggest you get Urbanski's tome III
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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Praxichys
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What do you want to do with it?
Are you trying to homogenize and densify it? Do you need it moldable in-situ or do you simply need a fixed shape? Are you looking to maximize brisance
or total output energy, or have a thermobaric effect?
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wessonsmith
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He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich
enough, so not an ideal binder.
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underground
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Still 15% NC wont do much. My advice is to use 10-15% pib/motor oil for a binder and skip that NC
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wessonsmith
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I agree with the 15% pib/motor oil, not sure he has access to it, though.
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Petn1933
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Quote: Originally posted by Praxichys  | What do you want to do with it?
Are you trying to homogenize and densify it? Do you need it moldable in-situ or do you simply need a fixed shape? Are you looking to maximize brisance
or total output energy, or have a thermobaric effect? |
Thank you for your reply
You are right, because I have not specified what I want to use this compound for. I am looking for maximum energy and explosive speed. By adding
aluminum to this explosive compound, I want to see the explosion rate would increase or not?
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Petn1933
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| Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith | He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich
enough, so not an ideal binder.
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Thank you dear wessonsmith
I’ll try it
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Petn1933
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Dear underground, 2 years ago I tried plastic explosive.70/30 petn:etn and it has been powerful.
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith | He wanted advice on a thermobaric composition. His only binder was NC. My advice was to ditch the ETN and go with:
PETN 45
NC 15
AI powder 40
Mix all with acetone and then mold it. I would also add some magnesium if available. A good thermobaric comp needs excess fuel, NC isn't fuel-rich
enough, so not an ideal binder.
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So now you have a solution of PETN and NC in acetone with Al segregating at the bottom.
How do you mold that ?
Even if you add just enough acetone to gel the NC then incorporate the PETN some of it will dissolve and not recristalize in an optimal way after the
solvent evaporates. Not an elegant solution.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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underground
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I mean, it wont do much 15% NC as a binder, i am not talking about performance. You have to use a better binder like i said pib/motor oil for a good
plastic.
[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]
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Petn1933
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| Quote: Originally posted by underground |
I mean, it wont do much 15% NC as a binder, i am not talking about performance. You have to use a better binder like i said pib/motor oil for a good
plastic.
[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground] |
Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the
solvent evaporates.
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wessonsmith
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Very Powerful Thermobaric comp
FYI this is my Thermobaric composition.
ETN 55.00 (g)
Al(3μm/) 12.00
Mg/Al(44μm/325mesh) 18.00 (50/50 mix)
Soy Lecithin(liquid) 0.300
lmwHTPB Resin 11.69 (lmw=Low Molecular Weight)
Isodecyl Pelargonate Plasticizer 0.73
Modified MDI Isocyanate Curative 1.84
CAO-5 Antioxidant 0.44
Very modelable and storable composition. I am aware that people outside the USA don't have access to HTPB.
FYI this is an adaptation from a military-grade Thermobaric comp. I am substituting out HMX for ETN. So logistically, the military wouldn't use it
due to the low melting temp, but from a practical/individual level, it is excellent.
[Edited on 13-11-2019 by wessonsmith]
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underground
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| Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933 | | Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after
the solvent evaporates. |
Then add 5-10% vaseline.
[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground]
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by underground | | Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933 | | Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after
the solvent evaporates. |
Then add 5-10% vaseline.
[Edited on 13-11-2019 by underground] |
Adding the vasiline would help a lot with the fuel needed for a good Thermobaric effect. Good call.
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933 |
Yes, I understand what you mean, but here my goal is not to make plastic. I want to use acetone and nitrocellulose to make a solid material after the
solvent evaporates. |
Did I say Tome III ?
Solvent / solventless double and triple base powders processes should be of interest to you if you insist on using a solvent.
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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MineMan
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NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is active.
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Petn1933
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| Quote: Originally posted by Petn1933 |
Whate you think about this:
Petn 67%
Etn 28%
Nc 2.5%
Al powder 2.5%
We Mix all with acetone and then mold it.
I want to know your opinion friends
Tnx |
 
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Petn1933
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about 1/4 pound.
Now I have to see when I can blow it up:/
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wessonsmith
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| Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | | NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is
active. |
That is not the case for a Thermobaric composition; it is the case for plastic explosives. A successful thermobaric composition requires an
excess of fuel for it to work correctly. The ratio of fuel/oxidizer/energetic needs to be such that the excess fuel is properly ignited so that it
can then recruit the available oxygen in the area. It's this reignition of the excess fuel that causes the vacuum, and sustained
blast overpressure.
NC doesn't contain enough fuel to be an effective Thermobaric binder. HTPB has 10x the fuel density of NC. Where thermobaric's shine are enclosed
spaces, that excess of fuel recruits the available oxygen(oxidizer) within the room, causing a partial vacuum, which is then replaced by a sustained
overpressure wave produced by the continued ignition of the excess fuel by the recruited oxygen.
Something interesting I discovered in my quest for an effective thermobaric composition was the effect that the container has on the thermobaric
outcome. A 3mm thick aluminum shell can dissipate the thermobaric effect by as much as 60% as compared to a thermobaric composition without a shell.
That is why I use a plastic container instead of a metal one for my thermobaric composition.
For futher reading I suggest these two research papers.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ALAn-co9H3OugWTx45Yj...
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by wessonsmith | | Quote: Originally posted by MineMan | | NC is the best binder for thermobaric.... combined effects is achieved if the binder is active. But not if it’s inactive. NC is
active. |
That is not the case for a Thermobaric composition; it is the case for plastic explosives. A successful thermobaric composition requires an
excess of fuel for it to work correctly. The ratio of fuel/oxidizer/energetic needs to be such that the excess fuel is properly ignited so that it
can then recruit the available oxygen in the area. It's this reignition of the excess fuel that causes the vacuum, and sustained
blast overpressure.
NC doesn't contain enough fuel to be an effective Thermobaric binder. HTPB has 10x the fuel density of NC. Where thermobaric's shine are enclosed
spaces, that excess of fuel recruits the available oxygen(oxidizer) within the room, causing a partial vacuum, which is then replaced by a sustained
overpressure wave produced by the continued ignition of the excess fuel by the recruited oxygen.
Something interesting I discovered in my quest for an effective thermobaric composition was the effect that the container has on the thermobaric
outcome. A 3mm thick aluminum shell can dissipate the thermobaric effect by as much as 60% as compared to a thermobaric composition without a shell.
That is why I use a plastic container instead of a metal one for my thermobaric composition.
For futher reading I suggest these two research papers.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1ALAn-co9H3OugWTx45Yj... |
I appreciate your very detailed explanation. But combined effect explosives have both a thermobaric effect and a high gurney velocity. Only possible
with an active binder.... In fact... the gurney energy can be higher then without the metal powder... that’s impressive!
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Microtek
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| Quote: |
I am looking for maximum energy and explosive speed. By adding aluminum to this explosive compound, I want to see the explosion rate would increase or
not
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From this, it seems that he is looking for something that isn't necessarily thermobaric or plastic. It also seems that he is looking for high
explosion energy and high "explosion rate" (which I would interpret as VOD). Unless moldability is desired, I don't think it would be a good idea to
use PIB/oil as the binder/plasticizer matrix. NC is quite a decent binder, but gets quite brittle unless plasticized. Personally I would add a little
NG for this purpose (about 0,3-0,5g per gram of NC), but it is possible that ETN or PETN may have an equivalent effect.
With regards to solvent, acetone is fine but you shouldn't just mix and evaporate in some mold; it will get inhomogenous as Haber says. Instead, mix
thoroughly while evaporating most of the solvent. Then granulate and evaporate practically all the rest. Then press the charge with a dwell time of at
least 5 minutes.
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Herr Haber
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek |
NC is quite a decent binder, but gets quite brittle unless plasticized. Personally I would add a little NG for this purpose (about 0,3-0,5g per gram
of NC), but it is possible that ETN or PETN may have an equivalent effect.
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I thought of mentioning NG or DNT but feared for op's safety. Though now that I think of it the solventless processes I pointed to would be ideal:
NC in water, a lot of agitation while incorporating NG then separate the gel from water to add PETN or toss the PETN straight in the water. Beyond a
few percents it will be brittle though.
I have no doubt Wessonsmith could transform a pasta making machine to extrude tubes or whatever !
PETN doesnt work as a plasticizer unfortunately (Urbanski again).
The spirit of adventure was upon me. Having nitric acid and copper, I had only to learn what the words 'act upon' meant. - Ira Remsen
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